Curse

Mystic- · Jun 26, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

A super defensive playstyle does not mean damage will be lacking. With co-ordinated damage and shutdown pushes can me made extremely easily. We used to play with a super defensive playstyle using a build with 4 healers and we would win games within 15minutes. An increase if defence never means offence must be decreased.

Blame the Monks · Jun 26, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic-

An increase in defence never means offence must be decreased.

Of course it does.

You have 64 slots. Suppose you use 32 for defense and 32 for offense. If you switch that to using 45 for defense, of course you have less for offense. The same is true for energy, time, or any other limiting resource -- the more you use on defense, the less you have for offense. Its just that VoD makes it so one blast of aoe on dumb npcs is all the offense you need to win games. Or conversely, you don't need generalized offense or shutdown if you run a gimmick spike -- two spike skills + defense is the rule.

Seamus Finn · Jun 26, 2007, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Of course it does.

You have 64 slots. Suppose you use 32 for defense and 32 for offense. If you switch that to using 45 for defense, of course you have less for offense.

In a sense this is of course true. But if you layer enough kinds of quick, easy-use, and effective defense, you may actually have more characters that can focus solely on offense-oriented plays. Having a lot of offensive skills and little defensive skills can sometimes just mean that your offense is used defensively. This can sometimes be the case against, ironically, a team that runs a lot of defense. If the offense can't overwhelm the defense, there comes times in the match where linebacking, etc. has to happen to the monks can regain the energy to support another push.

Thom Bangalter · Jun 26, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Or conversely, you don't need generalized offense or shutdown if you run a gimmick spike -- two spike skills + defense is the rule.

what's the ratio of attack skills to easy mode defense skills on a team with 5 paragons, two monks, and a rit?

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 26, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Of course it does.

You have 64 slots. Suppose you use 32 for defense and 32 for offense. If you switch that to using 45 for defense, of course you have less for offense. The same is true for energy, time, or any other limiting resource -- the more you use on defense, the less you have for offense. Its just that VoD makes it so one blast of aoe on dumb npcs is all the offense you need to win games. Or conversely, you don't need generalized offense or shutdown if you run a gimmick spike -- two spike skills + defense is the rule.

Many of the strong skills and templates in the game right now work equally well offensively and defensively. Curse necros, water eles, paragons, and the like all provide strong defense without sacrificing much offense in the process.

These days, most team builds have a midline that provides both strong defense and offense, without really losing out on one or the other. Of course, you can get gimmicky and drop your monks (IWAY!) or your melee (321spike!), but there isn't that much reason too outside of Paraway. With the current balance of Guild Wars, you really can have your cake and eat it too.

Farin · Jun 26, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Pretty boring final I must say. Let's run the most defensive build for 20 minutes trying to spike them out and then exploit VoD. Yeah.. Even Hex VS Hex matches are more entertaining tbqh.

Blame the Monks · Jun 26, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Many of the strong skills and templates in the game right now work equally well offensively and defensively.

Yes, and that's a sign of a robust and versatile build. But even if a build has the TOOLS to play defensively or offensively, there is still the limiting factor of time, micro, energy, and location. A player cannot both defend his base from a ganker (playing defensively) while also ganking the other base (offensively). Or on a more local level, a water ele generally can't snare warriors (defensively) at the same time he snares the warrior's target (offensively), at least not for long. The bar has the tools to do both, but still there is always a limiting factor -- energy, recharge, time, etc.

This is true even when playing cowstyle -- we shut down their either their offense or the defense, but not both. Cow justed used traditionally offensive tools to play defense, but fundamentally we were still playing defensively during those stretches. Its also true that the exceptions to this are typically balance problems (paras that give mass passive defense and massive offense, hexes that RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO you up while also killing you, ritualists that provide an inpenetrable wall of shit while also giving damage, etc). Most toons have a more healthy balance (blindbot that is primarily defensive but can spike or a warrior that is primarily offensive but could lineback in a pinch).

Akaraxle · Jun 27, 2007, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

You have 64 slots. Suppose you use 32 for defense and 32 for offense. If you switch that to using 45 for defense, of course you have less for offense.

I see it more as a shift in playstyle. The more you shift to defense, the closer you get to 321spike. The more you shift to offense, the closer to get to c+space. Both are valid strategies and both can kill; then, of course, there's extremist builds that either don't manage to kill sh*t or just go Spartan and wipe.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 27, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

I see it more as a shift in playstyle. The more you shift to defense, the closer you get to 321spike. The more you shift to offense, the closer to get to c+space. Both are valid strategies and both can kill; then, of course, there's extremist builds that either don't manage to kill sh*t or just go Spartan and wipe.

wouldnt you agree though that the less offensive skills you bring the easier it becomes for even a balanced with a mes and ranger to distroy the little 3-2-1 you do indeed have left? unless of course it's a 3-2-1 of about 7+ of the same offensive skills

Kaon · Jun 28, 2007, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

wouldnt you agree though that the less offensive skills you bring the easier it becomes for even a balanced with a mes and ranger to distroy the little 3-2-1 you do indeed have left? unless of course it's a 3-2-1 of about 7+ of the same offensive skills

I would, but not when it's done right. AR does it right so in this case i disagree.

Remember that iB used to rape people superquick with their dualsurge build while they had a 3monk backline. This is because with their backline the mesmers and warriors were allowed to overextend and play more offensively and aggressively so they'd kill faster.

Mystic- · Jun 29, 2007, 12:20 AM // 00:20

gj kaon you condradicted everything I said

i said defensive playstyle which means shifting towards linebacking etc. more often then dual kd'ing / base rezzing monks more etc. not a defensive build with 1000 heals

Kaon · Jun 29, 2007, 09:12 AM // 09:12

That's actually what they do. They replace support for simply more heals. They switch ele for monk.

But it's totally irrelevant to the point anyway: Playoff organisation was baeed.

Mystic- · Jun 30, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

yah rly qft ~~