Curse

Thomas.knbk · Jun 30, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

[skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill][skill]Impale[/skill][skill]Siphon Strength[/skill][skill]Siphon Speed[/skill] and an optional slot, i went for [skill]Dark Prison[/skill] but you can fit some self-defense, self-heal, interrupt, enchant removal, etc.

I just saw a very similar build in the renO vs. spnv match. I think spnv ran it, in a hex build. It was kinda hard to see how it worked, because they resigned at 7 minutes or so.

Patccmoi · Jun 30, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I just saw a very similar build in the renO vs. spnv match. I think spnv ran it, in a hex build. It was kinda hard to see how it worked, because they resigned at 7 minutes or so.

Actually SpNv had an exact SP sin bar with SP being replaced by Siphon Strength. I don't think the guy even had a single shadowstep.

I think his bar was:

Siphon Strength
Expose Defenses
BLS
Horns
BSS
BoS
Impale
Hex Breaker

He was mostly running around looking for spike targets in their mid/backline, which is pretty different from what i play my version which is snaring and disabling enemy melee more and focusing on overextenders using shadowsteps to spike assist in their casters, but at least he had Siphon Strength that was usable between combos.

I played around with some other sin bars lately and here are the 3 bars that i think atm can fill this utility/spike role:

1) Siphon Strength

11+1 Deadly Arts
11+1+1 Dagger Mastery
8 Critical Strike

[skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill][skill]Impale[/skill][skill]Shadow Walk[/skill][skill]Dash[/skill][skill]Siphon Strength[/skill][skill]Siphon Speed[/skill]

Advantage of anti-melee support, stronger at taking down enemy warriors that overextend. Also very strong in splits because of its full shutdown of an enemy warrior and snare.

2) Shadow Shroud

9+1 Deadly Arts
11+1+1 Dagger Mastery
8+1 Shadow Arts
8 Critical Strike

[skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill][skill]Impale[/skill][skill]Shadow Walk[/skill][skill]Dash[/skill][skill]Shadow Shroud[/skill][skill]Siphon Speed[/skill]

Advantage of extremely powerful spike assist with Shadow Shroud that can screw up most teams, especially if the spike happens to be on Infuser. Can spike assist with just that if the rest of your team has enough killing power, and Siphon Speed to snare enemy melee. More dangerous to mess around with enemy melee if you don't have Siphon Strength to reduce their damage though.

3) Shattering Assault

11+1+1 Dagger Mastery
12+1 Critical Strike
6+1 Deadly Arts

[skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Shattering Assault[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Shadow Walk[/skill][skill]Dash[/skill][skill]Enduring Toxin[/skill][skill]Siphon Speed[/skill]

Can pressure a bit with Toxin, snare with Siphon Speed, and pretty powerful spike assist with Shattering Assault. If you need a DW you can also use TF, or if you want to solo spike someone you can do BLS-SA-BSS-TF. Note that i'd be happy to switch Toxin for something else that's interesting, but i don't really see what atm. You could always Expose Defenses.

Note that if you need a Rez Sig in all those builds you can switch Shadow Walk-Dash for Dark Prison, but you will lose a bit in spike assist power.

Atm i think the most versatile and well-rounded is by far the Siphon Strength one (and it's the only one i used successfully in GvG too, the others are still just theory GvG-wise, only tested in arenas), but the other 2 can offer some pretty powerful enchant control power on spike, but they're more spike assist oriented and are a bit weaker in split (although Shattering Assault can easily destroy most Shield of Regen hydros running around).

Shuuda · Jun 30, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vagrant

My biggest issue is the lack of defense assassins have. If they weren't so vulnerable, different builds would be more likely to flourish. But since they're relatively weak, and easy to kill, they're forced into using spikes that get the job done before they're dead.

Well, it's not the skills that are bad for defence, infact, assassins have some very good defence skills (Dark escape, Feignied etc) It's just most assassin bars cannot fit them.

One thing that really bugs me, is how people refer to assassin solo spikers as the 1,2,3,4 dead way so much, it's true, but isn't that how all solo spikers work? Warrior spikers ,build up adren,1,2,3, . And arena air spikers are pretty much the same idea. In the end, naturally assassins are going to be 1,2,3,4,5 whatever, because that's how they use their skills. A decent assassin combo takes up about 4 slots, (Take the common Moebius Death blossom build), that's about the same amount (Maybe one less attack skill) Than what I see on warriors.

And yeah, buffing siphon strength was a blessing to shutdown.

Riotgear · Jun 30, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

One thing that really bugs me, is how people refer to assassin solo spikers as the 1,2,3,4 dead way so much, it's true, but isn't that how all solo spikers work? Warrior spikers ,build up adren,1,2,3, .

You can kite a warrior pretty easily, or even just use a block stance. If they're using Cripslash/YAA, you can easily get out of it with MT. You can't kite Shadow Prison, even if the assassin's crippled, and you can't block with Expose Defenses, and they can start the spike as long as they're in earshot range.

Quote:

And arena air spikers are pretty much the same idea.

Lightning orb/hammer does about 140 damage unmitigated against 60AL, which means an air spiker takes about 4 casts to bring a target down. With the 3/4 second aftercast, that's about 11 seconds to "solo-spike" someone, longer if they heal up, you're not KDing mid-spike unless you're running Lightning Surge or Mind Shock, and it takes even longer than that if they dodge Orb. How long do 4 dagger attacks take again?

Shuuda · Jun 30, 2007, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

You can kite a warrior pretty easily, or even just use a block stance. If they're using Cripslash/YAA, you can easily get out of it with MT. You can't kite Shadow Prison, even if the assassin's crippled, and you can't block with Expose Defenses, and they can start the spike as long as they're in earshot range.

True for the most part, I'll agree with Exposed defences stuff, since it's a rather over powered skill. But there are ways to defend yourself, Dark Escape with RoF, Return, or have a blindbot around. The SP assassin is the one thing I hate about assassins, but these days it's very predictable (all the more reason to run something else) Even RA monks have learnt to cope with it (Melandru's res monks makes the build counter productive in a way) And in GvG assassins are put to better use than monk stomping. (Corrupt Enchantment, Daze, Migraine etc, those are things I tend to worry more about when I monk.)

And as for the speed of an assassin spike, it's fast, but if it wasn't, would there be any reason to run one? It's one of the things that make assassin different from warriors.

urania · Jun 30, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

preveil+hex breaker>expose+sp assa (and good in general, apart from lack of evade stances for critical cond removal)
shield bash>any assa (especially nice vs moeb strike assas, but great also vs d shots, bha arrows, cripslash...well, vs any attack skill :P)

Patccmoi · Jun 30, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Scuz beat Honk in today's tournament running a pressure build with 2 Assassins, 1 Melandru Derv, 1 Migraine and 1 Reaper's. One of their Assassin was standard SP, but the other was Shattering Assault with:

[skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Shattering Assault[/skill][skill]Horns of the Ox[/skill][skill]Impale[/skill][skill]Siphon Speed[/skill][skill]Tiger Stance[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

He was doing quite a good job snaring enemy warriors and his targets with Siphon and comboing. He got quite a bit of kills with his Shattering Assault on softies, and he killed E/Mo pretty efficiently on split with Shattering Assault on SoR (although a shadowstep would've helped him greatly there cause he also died with the cripshot and water hexes on him).

The build didn't seem like mindless 1-8 bashing at all the way he played it and it did apply quite a bit of pressure at the stand. With a little luck non-SP sins might become more and more popular (and i think it's good, cause those bars are quite nice and pretty tactical to play. When you don't have a 20s recharge shadowstep snare on your bar, you have to be a lot more careful about what you're doing).

Zuranthium · Jul 01, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

[skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Shattering Assault[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Shadow Walk[/skill][skill]Dash[/skill][skill]Enduring Toxin[/skill][skill]Siphon Speed[/skill]

I like it better this way:

A/Me

11+1+1 Critical Strikes
11+1 Dagger Mastery
8+1 Deadly Arts

[skill]Web of Disruption[/skill][skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Shattering Assault[/skill][skill]Impale[/skill][skill]Dark Prison[/skill][skill]Siphon Speed[/skill][skill]Recall[/skill]

Patccmoi · Jul 01, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I like it better this way:

A/Me

11+1+1 Critical Strikes
11+1 Dagger Mastery
8+1 Deadly Arts

[skill]Web of Disruption[/skill][skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Shattering Assault[/skill][skill]Impale[/skill][skill]Dark Prison[/skill][skill]Siphon Speed[/skill][skill]Recall[/skill]

I prefer Twisting Fangs to Impale in this build (because it allows for a 4 attack chain combo, while with Impale Shattering Assault recharge screws you up and you can't do BLS-SA-BSS-SA-Impale), but Web of Disruption is definitely more interesting than Enduring Toxin. I'll use that next time!

As for Shadow Walk-Dash vs Dark Prison-Recall, it's 2 different option but i'm not sure your energy would hold very well with Recall. Shattering Assault tends to be kinda energy intensive especially if you start adding the cost of Siphon Speed, Web, etc. But either way, both are mostly different and have different advantages. I'd have to play with Recall-Dark Prison more to know how much i like it. I know i really like having Dash to move fast out of combat.

Riotgear · Jul 01, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

And as for the speed of an assassin spike, it's fast, but if it wasn't, would there be any reason to run one? It's one of the things that make assassin different from warriors.

Speed by itself is fine, if anything, a good justification. That's part of why people ran AOD sins before SP showed up. But being fast, unblockable, unkiteable, usable from earshot range, requiring no build-up... that's a bit of a problem.

As has been pointed out, non-SP based builds are actually seeing more and more use. I've observed a lot of people running Shattering Assault, Assault Enchantments, and of course, Moebius Strike. There seem to be more viable options for Assassins than there ever were, so I think it's time to just kill SP, I don't think I've ever seen an Assassin bar built on SP that wasn't just a button-masher spike bar that a trained monkey could play, and that isn't the kind of thing that should be viable.

Zuranthium · Jul 01, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

I prefer Twisting Fangs to Impale in this build (because it allows for a 4 attack chain combo, while with Impale Shattering Assault recharge screws you up and you can't do BLS-SA-BSS-SA-Impale), but Web of Disruption is definitely more interesting than Enduring Toxin. I'll use that next time!

Although the 4 attack chain can be nice, I like having Shattering Assault available as often as possible. Twisting Fangs doesn't help you solo a SoR flagger. You need to keep Shattering Assault open as much as possible to counter it.

~Z

Thomas.knbk · Jul 01, 2007, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Actually SpNv had an exact SP sin bar with SP being replaced by Siphon Strength. I don't think the guy even had a single shadowstep.

I'm pretty sure he had siphon speed as well, but if you've got his entire bar I guess not.

pah01 · Jul 01, 2007, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I like it better this way:

A/Me

11+1+1 Critical Strikes
11+1 Dagger Mastery
8+1 Deadly Arts

[skill]Web of Disruption[/skill][skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Shattering Assault[/skill][skill]Impale[/skill][skill]Dark Prison[/skill][skill]Siphon Speed[/skill][skill]Recall[/skill]

What is wrong with you?

We are discussing the bars that assasins can use without abusing broken stupid skills or button mashing shit.

Recall is specifically one of those skills that should be killed. There is a reason why recall is considered splitting for dummies. It should be nerfed because the reward far outweighs the skill used in getting that reward.

The quote of the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by riotgear

But being fast, unblockable, unkiteable, usable from earshot range, requiring no build-up... that's a bit of a problem.

Thank you shadow prism is stupid and ghey.

My favourite bar so far in the thread is the siphon strength one.

My problem is that it still has shadowsteps, I really would like to see all offensive shadowstepping killed so only noobs bring it in PVE.

Joe

frojack · Jul 01, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26

I personally love those Shattering Assualt bars. Anet just needs to more or less completely kill shadow stepping (60 second recharges + skill disabling or something) so we can see more interesting builds.
Theres always been a lot of potential on sins but Izzy seems intent on pushing this shadow gank nonsense. Perfect example is Beguiling Haze: Did this need to be a shadow step? Is the condition (from casting range) not strong enough on it's own?
Shadow Shroud and Shroud of Silence are really frightening. If SP and Expose die horribly I hope I see more of these skills.

Yanman.be · Jul 01, 2007, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Frojack, Beguiling Haze sucks. So do SS and SoS.

lacasner · Jul 01, 2007, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Frojack, Beguiling Haze sucks. So do SS and SoS.

I think im going out on a limb here but...why??

Unless your thinking everything in GvG perspective, but in TA, RA etc. 4vs4 sense they are quite good,

pah01 · Jul 01, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Frojack, Beguiling Haze sucks. So do SS and SoS.

Actually Shadow shroud should not be considered shit in the current metagame.

Nobody runs Blessed Light anymore, well hardly anyone and the backline being RC or SoD and Lod/Infuse bringing alonmg a shadow shroud would be a nice counter to prevent the RC guy affecting an infuser during a spike.

In fact it surprises me that it isnt already making a comeback.

Beguiling Haze just sucks in comparison to brainless shadow prism, otherwise I think its just as good as BHA.

Joe

Patccmoi · Jul 01, 2007, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

My favourite bar so far in the thread is the siphon strength one.

My problem is that it still has shadowsteps, I really would like to see all offensive shadowstepping killed so only noobs bring it in PVE.

Joe

Sure, if you want get rid of Shadow Walk and use, i dunno, Disrupting Dagger or any /X utility (since the bar is pure sin). You could use Gaze of Comtempt for instance.

But the thing is, the Shadowsteps help tremendously on Assassin and i DON'T see a real problem with non-elite shadowsteps. Because they are really controlled by cooldown. 30-45s cooldown shadowstep doesn't make for a brainless bar and brainless play style, and they don't auto-snare your target either (well Dark Prison kinda does, but it's a small snare that doesn't last long and it's on 45s recharge). I mean, you're comboing every 6-12s, at most 1/3 of your combos are used with a shadowstep. If you use your shadow step as the base of your combos, you're likely playing your bar horribly.

And in splits, shadowsteps are kinda required for Sins, seriously. Or some heavy self-defense like Feigned until you're in combat range but still that doesn't really work well. Because you get destroyed by the time you reach your target. Say you have a sin vs Ranger or Eles or w/e, you'll be basically dead before you reach them. A warrior has real IMS and a big armor, a sin doesn't. Their best IMS is Siphon Speed and it's a hex that requires you to be half range. Dash is nice, but it's still not enough on its own. So those offensive shadowsteps are required to make up for their weaknesses.

I don't like elite shadowsteps because their recharge is very low and they can become the base of your offense, which is what you see with SP. SP sins basically keep their full combo to use it when SP is ready and so they never have to care about positioning, etc. But when you have 30-45s recharge shadowsteps, they aren't the base of your offense at all. They're just an extra utility on your bar in case you need to reach someone without dying before you get there.

And Shadow Shroud is a damn powerful elite, dunno why some people say it isn't. I'm honestly surprised it's not used more, even if it was on Me/A. Preventing any prot will often make 1/2 monk absolutely useless these days with SoD becoming popular, and healing alone is rarely enough to save a real spike, even Infuse (and you can always Diversion/knock that Infuse monk, or have someone pressuring him so that he can't infuse as he wants, etc.).

Beguiling Haze imo should be half spell range, not shadowstep, and be 'daze target, if target is casting a spell he's interrupted and suffers from exhaustion'. Keep same stats. Would be interesting to have a real way to try to pressure through exhaustion. It's still not something easy to do at all, but an Assassin with Beguiling Haze and maybe Exhausting Assault could be a very interesting, new type of pressure.

frojack · Jul 01, 2007, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Precisely. I really like some of what the assassin can currently do (could use a few tweaks here and there) but while this shadow gank bull still exists, I can't think of them in any way other than vile game-breaking contempt.

Such a wasted opportunity...

Symbol · Jul 01, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

As has been pointed out, non-SP based builds are actually seeing more and more use. I've observed a lot of people running Shattering Assault, Assault Enchantments, and of course, Moebius Strike.

Could you give an example of guilds using non-SP bars, so I know whom to watch? Every time I observe it's always SP, SP, SP.

For a while back a lot of guilds used moebius but the hex meta killed that.