Curse

BeowulfKamdas · Jun 23, 2007, 08:17 AM // 08:17

yeah today kurzicks were really competitive... bonders at the gate. I must have left like 10 matches.

Three problems plagued aspenwood before the update: dumb AI, imbalance and leechers

the update simply introduced leavers to the mix.

bravo ANet. bravo

Shuuda · Jun 23, 2007, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Well, I'd vote to remove the rewards for the losing team, this would make leeching pointless, but most people won't want to play harder for the rewards, but for people who do it fun, they are the only that get any benefit from that.

Riotgear · Jun 23, 2007, 08:22 AM // 08:22

If you remove rewards for the losing team, you kill the map. There is simply no reason to play Kurzicks in Aspenwood, or play any AB map other than Saltspray unless you're on the team rigged to win, unless you get a reasonable reward for losing.

Like I said, it doesn't matter how much reward the losers get, if someone can go to sleep and wake up with more faction, they are going to leech. That's why this isn't going to discourage leechers, it's going to discourage players from sticking around for any game that isn't a sure victory. Certainly is for me: AB game down 100 points? Quit, find a new group, try again! Why bother with an idiot team for 250 faction when the winners get 1500 now?

If they want to fix this problem, the solution is much simpler: If a player hasn't moved from their starting position for the entire game, ZERO FACTION. Problem solved. Killing leechers requires taking away the rewards from players that LEECH, not from players that LOSE. The update as-is rivals converting HA to 6v6 in terms of stupidity.

Traveller · Jun 23, 2007, 09:35 AM // 09:35

So, if I get it right, a winning Luxon team will now get 600 + 40x5 = 800 faction. Or does each gate count for a separate 40 faction bonus, meaning if Luxons destroy the outer orange 10 times, they get 400 on that alone?

Unfortunately, it will probably lead to just more leeching. With the reward being decreased for losing, it will probably lead to even more leaving as well when things start to look tough. It's not uncommon that sometimes I'm the last one to play on my team, usually maybe with 1-2 other guys, when everyone else has quit or is leeching. I appreciate the try to boost these areas, which many people still play, but still, we need a system which rewards actual playing and not just leeching.

[edit] Agree with Riotgear here - anyone who hasn't moved from the starting area gets nothing. Then again, maybe they would just move from the starting platform and _then_ go AFK. I just wish there would be some kind of way to monitor the activity of the player in the match.

Riotgear · Jun 23, 2007, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Typical Aspenwood outcome was roughly 7 gate downs and 75% charge, or with Kurzick wins, 4 gate downs (one repeat of each outer gate) and 100% charge. Scoring for Luxon used to be 80 x number of gates down at the end, + 150 for winning, and the typical loss had 4 games down with Kurzicks turtled at green.

Kurzick before:
Typical win: 650 faction
Typical loss: 300 faction

Kurzick after:
Typical win: 800 faction
Typical loss:150 faction

Luxon before:
Typical win: 650 faction
Typical loss: 320 faction

Luxon after:
Typical win: 800 faction
Typical loss: 160 faction

ALLIANCE BATTLES:
Typical outcome is 300-500, or so.

Before:
Typical win: 1250 faction
Typical loss: 600 faction

Typical win: 1500 faction
Typical loss: 300 faction

So basically, losing teams went from getting around half the faction to getting around a fifth.

Servant of Kali · Jun 23, 2007, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeowulfKamdas

this gameplay type is flawed and only works because of the randomness of the players. Some matches are dictated by just what builds your party members are using and what your opponents are using.

And that's how it should be. I mean, i fail to see your point. Fort Aspenwood is a strategic map, it requires a different approach than GvG HA or other maps. What is wrong with that?

Of course that matches are dictated with builds, they SHOULD BE DICTATED WITH BUILDS. If you don't want matches to be dictated by builds play Chess. I do, when i feel like.

Quote:

yeah today kurzicks were really competitive... bonders at the gate. I must have left like 10 matches.
Three problems plagued aspenwood before the update: dumb AI, imbalance and leechers

Wow incredible, a PvP strategic map which requires you to *think* and *prepare*. What imbalance? Are you complaining about bonders? Because FA is actually imbalanced and favors *Luxon* side.

Instead of complaining about bonders, how about bringing enchant removal? Geez it's not that hard is it, there are 8 people in your team, if none can deal with a bonder you dont deserve to win!

When im Luxon, i win most of the games in 5 min, or 10 min, and very rarely more than that. Even less rarely do i lose. If i play Kurzick side, i also win 85% of time (if no leechers). It's called skill. It's called strategic gameplay. Stop complaining. If FA doesn't suit your playstyle, don't play it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traveller

Or does each gate count for a separate 40 faction bonus, meaning if Luxons destroy the outer orange 10 times

Nah, only once counts. Similiar to balth faction when u kill a player i think.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 23, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

When im Luxon, i win most of the games in 5 min, or 10 min, and very rarely more than that. Even less rarely do i lose. If i play Kurzick side, i also win 85% of time (if no leechers). It's called skill. It's called strategic gameplay. Stop complaining. If FA doesn't suit your playstyle, don't play it.

A gametype that is so plagued with bad players and bad concepts that one good player abusing those concepts can make that big of a difference.

BeowulfKamdas · Jun 23, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

A gametype that is so plagued with bad players and bad concepts that one good player abusing those concepts can make that big of a difference.

Which pretty much alludes to the problems with the Guild Wars engine. Balance skills for the 8v8 GvG format and you get overpowered skills in the 4v4 TA format (but who cares? GvG is what's important right?) ANet tried to build a unique gametype here (and I wish they would do this more) but because of its competitive nature players will use exploits in the maps AI and design which have gone unaddressed or even made worse by ANet [luxon warrior AI] and we have a bad gametype.

Servant of Kali · Jun 23, 2007, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

A gametype that is so plagued with bad players and bad concepts that one good player abusing those concepts can make that big of a difference.

Exactly, but do you now see my point, that when someone complains how *favored* side is too difficult to play, then the problem obviously is ... him

BTW it's not abusing the concepts. It's playing the concept. Protection of the gates as well as amber running, is at the core of this map. There are no abuses or exploits in Fort Aspenwood, other than glitched turtles and Luxon warriors and occasional gatkeeper charge out of the green zone. For as long as i've played Aspenwood, i dont remember a single "exploit" or "abuse", nothing i would call such. For instance, in RA, it's 'abuse' sort of, if you make a totally defensive character or a runner which does nothing but prolong matches. In Fort Aspenwood there is no such thing. As a Kurzick if you prolong the battle you're doing a strategically good move. It's just a different area with different rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeowulfKamdas

Balance skills for..

As of right now, the fact that skills are not balanced for Fort Aspenwood presents absolutely no problem. The way skills are now is good, none is too overpowered in FA, none i can think of. There are underpowered ones, sure, but none overpowered.
I play on both Luxon and Kurzick side. It's never the skill, really. It's the SKILL of a player and teamwork.

TheGuildWarsPenguin · Jun 24, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

There are no abuses or exploits in Fort Aspenwood, other than glitched turtles and Luxon warriors and occasional gatkeeper charge out of the green zone. For as long as i've played Aspenwood, i dont remember a single "exploit" or "abuse", nothing i would call such.

What about saccing and degening Gunther with pestilence,lacerate, sac skills, etc.?

moko · Jun 24, 2007, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGuildWarsPenguin

What about saccing and degening Gunther with pestilence,lacerate, sac skills, etc.?

Pestilence was fixed, however.

[skill]Pestilence[/skill]

so until some Luxon enemy starts inflicting conditions on it, you can't do a lot.

also,

[skill]Lacerate[/skill]

does not work either until someone attacks Gunther.

vergerefosh · Jun 24, 2007, 02:43 AM // 02:43

I've played some FA, but not for a while, as can have long matches for low reward.

Riotgear · Jun 24, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGuildWarsPenguin

What about saccing and degening Gunther with pestilence,lacerate, sac skills, etc.?

There isn't really any way to directly kill Gunther, courtesy of the combined EOE, Lacerate and Pestilence nerfs. Of course, if you want to make your team lose, just run this:

[skill]Primal Echoes[/skill][skill]Tranquility[/skill][skill]Nature's Renewal[/skill][skill]Quickening Zephyr[/skill][skill]Predatory Season[/skill][skill]Draw Spirit[/skill][skill]Whirling Defense[/skill][skill]Oath Shot[/skill]

Try bonding through that, KEKEKE

Quote:

For as long as i've played Aspenwood, i dont remember a single "exploit" or "abuse", nothing i would call such.

Oh please, you can STILL kite warriors to spots where they won't path back correctly, preventing a squad respawn. It's been possible to do that ever since the map was released.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 24, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

BTW it's not abusing the concepts. It's playing the concept. Protection of the gates as well as amber running, is at the core of this map. There are no abuses or exploits in Fort Aspenwood, other than glitched turtles and Luxon warriors and occasional gatkeeper charge out of the green zone. For as long as i've played Aspenwood, i dont remember a single "exploit" or "abuse", nothing i would call such. For instance, in RA, it's 'abuse' sort of, if you make a totally defensive character or a runner which does nothing but prolong matches. In Fort Aspenwood there is no such thing. As a Kurzick if you prolong the battle you're doing a strategically good move. It's just a different area with different rules.

There aren't any exploits per-say, but there still is abuse of bad mechanics of the map itself. It is just good strategy to abuse these bad concepts to win, but it's still abuse. I'm putting the blame entirely on ANet for designing the map like that in the first-place, BTW. It's the same as VoD abuse in GvG, everyone knows that it's abuse, but taking advantage of it is still fair game until ANet changes it.

DFrost · Jun 24, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Just got back from FA again. I was on the Kurzick side, Luxons had 3 leechers and before Vengeance had reached 50% all the others had left. As much as I enjoy free faction, something really has to be done to the current system.

Servant of Kali · Jun 24, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

So far there's no noticable drop on leeching, from what i can tell.

TheGuildWarsPenguin · Jun 24, 2007, 11:02 PM // 23:02

So far there's a noticeable increase in leaving, from what I can tell.

Therlun · Jun 25, 2007, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

When im Luxon, i win most of the games in 5 min, or 10 min, and very rarely more than that. Even less rarely do i lose. If i play Kurzick side, i also win 85% of time (if no leechers). It's called skill. It's called strategic gameplay. Stop complaining. If FA doesn't suit your playstyle, don't play it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

A gametype that is so plagued with bad players and bad concepts that one good player abusing those concepts can make that big of a difference.

Sounds like bragging but it is actually true.
A single intelligent player can have a huge impact on a game with 12 morons and 3 leechers... :P

Aspenwood would be the perfect casual PvP if it had no leechers.
Randomness, imbalance of the map and the 'npc management' make it fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGuildWarsPenguin

So far there's a noticeable increase in leaving, from what I can tell.

Sad and true.

Pwny Ride · Jun 25, 2007, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Wow incredible, a PvP strategic map which requires you to *think* and *prepare*. What imbalance? Are you complaining about bonders? Because FA is actually imbalanced and favors *Luxon* side.
Instead of complaining about bonders, how about bringing enchant removal? Geez it's not that hard is it, there are 8 people in your team, if none can deal with a bonder you dont deserve to win!

Which planet are you playing on again?

From what i can see, if the kurzicks only need to bring two monks to win, that's hardly balanced. How about we bring enchant removal? Well we do, and if monk enchantments didnt have insanely short recharge times, maybe enchant removal might help.

'Dealing' with a bonder isnt exactly easy. Taking a build or an elite to specifically counter bonding fails on so many levels, since opponents will be coming at you from all sides, all completely random with different builds. You want to be able to deal with a multitude of situations.

Take shadow shroud for example. Yea sure, it stop enchantments. Monks have divert/deny hexes. And come on, the protection line can heal on its own. You know, the completely broken elite, Zeleous Benediction?

Luxons have an advantage in FA? FA and AB are Kurzick biased, and this is coming from someone who has played on both sides of the field.

moko · Jun 25, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Bonds cost too much to keep reapplying them if you are fast at removing them, or you just strip balthazar's aura and keep blessed signet down?

[skill]Gaze of Contempt[/skill]
[skill]Rend Enchantments[/skill]
[skill]Nature's Renewal[/skill]

[skill]Shatter Enchantment[/skill]
[skill]Drain Enchantment[/skill]
[skill]Distracting Shot[/skill]
[skill]Diversion[/skill]
[skill]Well of the Profane[/skill]

i could post more skills for every single class that has at least one solution to it but i cba really.

you don't even need to prepare against normal hybrid monks, the energy isn't unlimited, just pressure and energy dies, and if they prot, how about you just switch targets so they waste energy?

ok besides, something nobody seems to notice, NPCs in every PvP aspect of the game are plain retarded, if you would HA, you would know how dumb the Ghost can be, if you'd GvG and watch your NPCs at VoD you'll see how stupid their moving pattern is, or how easy you can bodyblock them all in the same spot and aoe the shit out of them.

if there's a fix to the AI coming, Aspenwood should be last on the list, simply because it's not even PvP.