Curse

Bowstring Badass · Jul 08, 2007, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etta

You said it yourself, they can't make everyone happy. If they fixed the game for Joe, Bob wont be happy, fixed it for Bob, Dick wont be happy, and so on. It'll be a never ending circle of fixing this, that, above and below. I don't think they can be arse fixing it anymore than it is, hence GW2 in 2 years.

I'm not defending them or anything, but the game is still fun for me to play. It's not perfect but what is? (mario cart on snes is) Samurai is blunt but his words ring truth and you know it. Put down the mouse and let it go.

Agreed. But A-net needs to fix the elevation problems they have (attacking someone on top of a bridge while you are below them - abused by melee [sins,wars,dervs]).

Lord Natural · Jul 08, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

First, EA is indisputably one of the worst companies out there in terms of long-term support for a game

Absolutely true. I've only really enjoyed 3 EA games online; Medal of Honor: AA, NFS: Underground, and now C&C3. The first two were basically abandoned after a couple of patches, letting the cheaters run free. While C&C is receiving some support, at least for the time being, the patches are so slow in being released that it's basically the same thing as no support at all. 1.05 gets released, a few days later it's hacked, then comes the 30 day+ wait for 1.06. There is a very small window of playability, and to be honest I expect them to stop trying very, very soon, if their past habits are any indication.

But tying this into anet/ncsoft, my point is the devs appear to be active in the game, but our complaints are basically going unnoticed. Whereas with EA I tend to attribute their habits with lack of caring, with anet I think it's just poor communication between the devs and the community. I know they're obviously concerned about pvp skill balancing effecting pve, but there are some changes which would improve the pvp situation a lot, whilst having a minimal impact on pve. The point is, I don't think there's anybody at anet who really has the ear of the pvp community. I get a little annoyed when a dev stops in every 30 days and posts up saying, keep posting ideas up guys, we read them when all I'm really after is an intelligent discussion on the matter. Would it really destroy anet to have a dev spend an hour a week picking through the better threads and offering up opinions on the current issues? I think not.

I mean if you try to get to Gaile at one of her stupid little conga parties and bring up a concern such as:

"Gaile, many pvpers have a strong dislike for the kill-count objective and its negative influence on HA builds and strategy. Can it just be removed already?"

The typical Gaile rebuttal will be:

"LOL I <3 KILLCOUNT. I MIGHT BRING THIS ISSUE UP WITH THE DEVELOPERS, BUT I PROBABLY WON'T THOUGH. LOLOLOL! CONGA, CONGA, CONGAAAA!"

It's especially disconcerting to me that an expansion is due out soon and I've heard nothing intelligent from the dev team on why I should actually buy it. Even if it will be focusing on PvE, give me some incentive to buy the damn thing. I could care less about 10 new dungeons, all I really want to know is what, if anything, to expect that I will care about as a pvper. If the only addition at all will be a few new skills and not even any maps, then even just a chat about how those skills will fit with the current metagame, how they will be balancing the current skills to mesh, and how the devs understand the current issues and are making an effort to fix them with this release.

Or maybe they're taking a page out of EA's book and just cruising to GW2

Alleji · Jul 08, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

I read about halfway through emo's long whine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're basically saying that tombs is gimmicky and you can't build to beat all gimmicks. Except in a really long post.

My big question is: what's new?

Despozblehero · Jul 09, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

well it will be a cruise without most of its long time playerbase (if most of it is still left anyways ;p) If you told me honestly about GW, now, today and id never played it before id tell you that game doesnt sound fun. What does it have to offer me? Grinding... mindless... skilless... grinding. None of the titles necessarily take skill to get. and if i wanted to grind id go to the games that are GOOD at it like WoW or Runescape or FF or whatever, i dunno i wouldnt think "hmmm i wanna go have fun grinding imma play Guild Wars!", at any rate... PvP is toast obviously(GoGo Gadget herobattles anyone?). So the game wouldnt have anything im interested in except good graphics. Make crap look as sweet as you want its still crap though.

Riotgear · Jul 09, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

While C&C is receiving some support, at least for the time being, the patches are so slow in being released that it's basically the same thing as no support at all. 1.05 gets released, a few days later it's hacked, then comes the 30 day+ wait for 1.06.

Actually they've been pretty good with C&C3 so far. They actually realized that infantry were a joke and games were devolving into tankfests and took steps to change that relatively quickly. By relatively, I mean in significantly less time than it took them to, say, release that big balance patch for Zero Hour.

And the fact that it's been hacked is more likely a result of the fact that the SAGE engine is an insecure piece of crap. Generals was full of gamebreaking hacks as well, the most awesome one being the ability to fire SCUD Storms at no cooldown from a SCUD Storm that was at 1% built. How their programmers are too dumb to sanity-check the commands clients are sending them is beyond me, especially when countless things that should be purely client-side (like assigning groups and selecting units) are prone to latency in net games.

Of course, my personal memories are just that: Zero Hour got its much-needed balance patch far, far too late. BF2 support was dropped hard for BF2142, even though BF2142 continues to have a smaller player base.

Quote:

Whereas with EA I tend to attribute their habits with lack of caring, with anet I think it's just poor communication between the devs and the community.

Sometimes I just think Izzy smokes a bowl before he comes to work or something, I dunno how else he can actually come up with changes like "Expose Defenses recharge increased to 15 seconds" or the old Reaper's Mark energy decrease.

I think the problem isn't so much bad communication, it's that the devs have publically stated that they don't want to nerf stuff hard, even when it needs it. Call it hanging on to bad ideas. And sometimes the balance updates that do make it through are so confusingly bad that one has to wonder if they even know what's wrong with the skills, or even know how they're used enough to throw out a change that will have any impact whatsoever.

God Apprentice · Jul 09, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Physically impossible to do on reflexes, even with computer reflexes. Norgu must've been trying to get an early spell (aka your mesmer was chaining spells). Either that or the AI is learning to bow-interrupt style anticipate spells.

No our mesmer was not chaining spells, he was waiting for the ranger hero to cast NR to PD it.

Phe Belladona · Jul 09, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

i've never seen a norgu do that, BUT heros generally miss fast casts if you get a 1sec fireball it'll miss it where a human wouldnt, also i've noticed them missing a mesmer with high fast cast using say ele skills (where they would still be catchable but hard) so i guess they have some sort of How difficult is this interupt, What is different about this spell (ie. is it faster than spells descrition) it takes into account on interupts i guess the PD on PD was unlucky as it decided that the 0.1% chance it had to hit that was that time.

Zui · Jul 09, 2007, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Apprentice

2: In an Player versus Player enviroment where personal skill is put to the test, AI will always win. Norgu PD'd our Mesmer's PD. Exactly how is this fair? Humans do not have that fast of a reaction time.

What are you talking about? Players > Heroes. The only apsect where a Hero can surpass a human is in pure reflex time. They're a lot worse than a player at everything else. Oh, and since they're not a person, that reflex advantage doesn't matter a whole lot. Sometimes they get lucky and interrupt somthing you care about that a person would have to predict (which is totally possible), but a large amount of time, they just interrupt random stuff you don't care much about. Heroes can't think, and they are very poor at following commands, aside from locking on to a single target and sitting on them. They're even bad at that, since they don't know how to use their skills properly.

I really can't think of one situation where I'd take a hero over even a mediocre player.

As for if it's 'fair' for Heroes to have a better reaction time than a player, I'd say it is. They don't know how to use their skills. They don't know what to interrupt. They can't predict skill usage. They fail at kiting. They can't pick up items. They fail at using a large amount of skills, and end up using almost every other skill they don't totally fail at using sub-optimally. They can't communicate. They don't do what you tell them very quickly. They require a lot of micro-managent and a build designed just for your hero to function 'well', relatively speaking that is. Let's face it, the faster 'reaction' time doesn't matter when you look at the big picture.

urania · Jul 09, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

at emo, there's more to pvp than just HA.

seriously though..when was heroes ascent NOT about farming fame, hmm?

Apok Omen · Jul 09, 2007, 09:24 AM // 09:24

So all this is is a smart-person's version of why HA sucks and that GW wasn't what it used to be for two years?

I guess he thought no one read the other 9,001 posts stating this catastrophe...

God Apprentice · Jul 09, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

What are you talking about? Players > Heroes. The only apsect where a Hero can surpass a human is in pure reflex time. They're a lot worse than a player at everything else. Oh, and since they're not a person, that reflex advantage doesn't matter a whole lot. Sometimes they get lucky and interrupt somthing you care about that a person would have to predict (which is totally possible), but a large amount of time, they just interrupt random stuff you don't care much about. Heroes can't think, and they are very poor at following commands, aside from locking on to a single target and sitting on them. They're even bad at that, since they don't know how to use their skills properly.

I really can't think of one situation where I'd take a hero over even a mediocre player.

As for if it's 'fair' for Heroes to have a better reaction time than a player, I'd say it is. They don't know how to use their skills. They don't know what to interrupt. They can't predict skill usage. They fail at kiting. They can't pick up items. They fail at using a large amount of skills, and end up using almost every other skill they don't totally fail at using sub-optimally. They can't communicate. They don't do what you tell them very quickly. They require a lot of micro-managent and a build designed just for your hero to function 'well', relatively speaking that is. Let's face it, the faster 'reaction' time doesn't matter when you look at the big picture.

Like you said, the Heroes are not suited to do complex things. However with Heroway teams, the assignments the Heroes are getting are not exactly complex. Degen Hex garbage for example. 1 Hero necro taints up, the other hex stacks you while the human packhunters throw spears at you. I'm not saying that this is unbeatable etc, I'm really tired of every map being them, and people who run them thinking they are great cause they run it.

Why are Heroes not totally removed from HA? If I want to face Heroes there is an arena for them!

ksalanpang · Jul 09, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Back to the 6 vs 6 that you guys were discussing. I do agreed with someone of you that it was great since you can easily find players to do casual HA. 6vs 6 was a good thing although i love 8 vs 8 more. In 6 vs 6, you can train some new guildies (If there's any) easier. Versus, 8 vs 8 there's not too much time to train coz not everyone could be online at the same time. It's much harder to get a full team (especially those ppl that you played with or know well).

People are playing heroway is because most guilds have ppl close to quitting...for whatever reason. They don't want people that they don't know to play with unless they're really kind enough.

We've been running sucky heroway, since our guild (really small community) do not have folks to run a full human team like before. But hey, we're not running those degen/hex heroway. We still run balanced build even we use heroes. Some of you might argue why don't we go TA instead. Then we say everything goes down to name and fame. If we HA, at least pple will see our guild name still going around and we get fame if we play okay (which is some of us don't mind to have). In TA, you can spend all day playing. But the reward is somewhat discouraging. We'd rather go AB, coz we get gold from selling amber/jadeite.

I agreed on some of you saying people just farm for whatever titles. I just wished that titles have more varieties...like I monk 99% of my pvp time. Can I get something like "Reowning Infuser" or "Eminent RC"...I mean you can get to lvl/tier with Prefix, but the suffix has to be something that you contribute in pvp. The word Hero is rather vague...

And yes, i also feel that anet put more effort in pve more than pvp as the money maker is from pve folks...Once again, if something's nerfed either pve folks or pvp folks would complain...forming this double-sided blade.

I witness a lot of good players quitting/close to quitting GW because of the limited builds ppl run these days.

Fame farming is an ugly part of HA. That's the only reason people abusing spike builds. Some friends that I played with only run balanced and want to hold hall to show others what we are capable of doing. Like our guild goal states, we want to represent our region.

btw Fat_Emo Interesting insights and nice thread starter

Good Luck!

Age · Jul 09, 2007, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Actually most people call it an MMO due to not even knowing about the great (or used to be great) PvP of the game. The people who actually know about Guild Wars IRL only know about the PvE aspect.

As for not being intended on being a PvP ONLY game...maybe. But nobody has denied my video proof of somebody at Anet saying "the game was built from the ground up to be a pvp game".

Well it is not as when you step ouside of a town can you talk to other No and that is the same for PvP.i can't go and watch one instead of it being on observer mode like watching it live.That is why GW is not an MMO and as for the halls or pvp in general being in beta still I don't think so or there wouldn't be all of these gimick builds.I will say this GW 2 will need it new blood for pvp as those who have left or are leaving won't return they are fed up as much as some of the yes farmers are.

lacasner · Jul 09, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

If I want to face Heroes there is an arena for them!

HB is soo bs atm, its not even a legitimate argument to say this.

Despozblehero · Jul 09, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

HB is soo bs atm, its not even a legitimate argument to say this.

ummm... hate to break it to you... BS is all hero battles will ever be... "I FIGHT WITH HENCHIES BETTER THAN YOU I PWN ;p"

lacasner · Jul 09, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

ummm... hate to break it to you... BS is all hero battles will ever be... "I FIGHT WITH HENCHIES BETTER THAN YOU I PWN ;p"

This made me "lol", thanks

.

If hero AI can be made better, and somewhat programmable for them to run more complex builds, with of course still you requiered to micro-manage them, i disagree. But with this uber-defense cap bullshit going on, hb will stay in bs mode.

Xiaxhou of Trinity · Jul 10, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

IMO: -The "guild" should be greatly enhanced
-PvP skills/gameplay=repetitive farming
-GW2 better have a lot of sh*t or im just gonna CSS from now on
-i think game was designed pvp, pve was add on (considering that the
only point of pve is to have custom armors/weps, i think the idea was
borrowed off WoW and tweaked.)
-completely agree with everything the OP said
*It looks to me that Anet could be doing a lot more to promote and
advance the game. Either they're holding back for GW2 or they've
run flat on ideas. If the second is true (as i believe is the reason for
no more new professions=pvp builds will become repetitive as a meta)
then Anet you better add more in the gwstore because you lost
ANOTHER customer =]
Been playing for two years. As a casual gamer, I was a poor pve nub first year, second year started to get into farming and more pvp instead of just doing the pve missions. Been on forums for a while so I've read a lot, and I have to say, dammit GW2 better be A LOT better. Anet's increasing profits wtih mission promo+gwstore, where were the good old days of Proph? GONE

PvP has so many false implications. "Oh I'm R10, I'm so much beter than you." Um sure whatever, I barely HA I'm R1. "Oh dude you have gladiator title? You're so 1337!" Um I'm not a bad players and pretty good, but I used pretty much the same build to get the title: ZB monking RA. Only a few of my more interesting builds (R/W brutal strike+final thrust=fun) earned me a glad pts. But sure think I'm 1337 because i farmed glad pts as a monk in RA.

Edit: I am the leader of my guild, and I have to strongly agree to emo's point about "guild dedication". As a veteran player and member of numerous guilds, I spotted weaknesses like the decrease in interest in the guild as a member. So I've tried to remedy this with activities and guild events (1v1 scrimm tourney, races, gvg's, farming this and that...even put rewards for the tourney/races) and still I had trouble with finding enough people to show up for these types of events. I believe that GW has become so much of a one player game that people would rather do this mission with heroes/hench than ask for help, or come tot he guild hall to do somethign else together. Players have become selfish and the need and use for a guild has become no more than a history

Despozblehero · Jul 10, 2007, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

This made me "lol", thanks

.

If hero AI can be made better, and somewhat programmable for them to run more complex builds, with of course still you requiered to micro-manage them, i disagree. But with this uber-defense cap bullshit going on, hb will stay in bs mode.

Nope still dont like it... no sir... not one bit... If you paint crap pink all you have is pink crap. If you change Hero Battles its still crap. Heros in PvP is part of the garbage that has lead to things like the idea of the OP *GW Falling Apart*. I mean rewarding people for Hero Battles, and WASTING time with implementing the idea, when the effort couldve been used MUCH more constructively (like fixing whats already there*cough* HA/AB/GVG/TA, oh yeah did i say HA *cough*

). Honestly, theres only 2 ways Hero AI is going to go its either going to be too good or really dumb. If you "randomly" make the heros fallable then you might as well just /roll every fight. Save the fighting with henchies for PvE. I really do think Heros are great for PvE, in PvP its um "contradictory" since its player vs AI (kinda like PvE

). Yes theres a little bit of player vs player in there i suppose, you gotta ping them around the map and click some of their skills, but you still have to rely on the AI. If you had to completely rely on the player to move/use skills, well thatd be no fun either. Itll never truly be PvP imho, and a big waste of time as a PvP option.

Blame the Monks · Jul 10, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00

The problem with henches is its never about skill. I want to win/lose based on my skill as a player against his skill as a player, not my skill at abusing the AI vs his skill at finding skills that are so easymode even the AI can use them well.

Riotgear · Jul 10, 2007, 04:17 AM // 04:17

It isn't even about finding skills that are "easymode," it's about finding skills which gain most of their usefulness from reflexes and/or complete knowledge of status bars, which can be spammed every single time there's an eligible target while still being effective.

Degen-hex works in HA because the AI knows who does and doesn't have Scourge Healing on them, knows exactly when someone loses Taint, will use SoLS the instant someone drops below 50%, etc. The Discord spike crap worked because the AI would be able to instantly detect when someone had a condition and hex. Packhunters are popular in HB because half of their mileage comes from using skills like Remedy Signet and HAO the instant their conditionality is met.

At the same time, none of that really matters who you cast it on or when. Who gives a shit who Olias casts Rotting Flesh on, for example? There's no tactical involvement there, just make sure it's spammed on recharge.

As for making heroes "fallible," the simplest fixes I can think of:
- Whenever the AI is "planning" to use a conditional skill on its current target, it has a 50% chance of waiting 1/4 sec, seeing if that skill is still viable to cast on the target, and THEN casting it.
- Conditional spells on candidates other than their current target are subject to an additional 1/2-sec reaction time penalty.
- All NPCs are given an "assumed hex" list, which causes enemy AIs to assume that the hex is still active. If a hex is prematurely removed, it is moved to the assumed list, along with its remaining duration. If all hexes are removed from the target, all hexes on the assumed list are removed. If all degen hexes are removed from the target, all degen hexes on the assumed list are removed.