Curse

Patccmoi · Jul 11, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

We faced 2 guilds in a row running that last night, one being iQ.

Basically, the build is something like 2-3 Melandru Dervishes, a Mo/Me that veil bonds them with Sig of Removal and does some smite on their back (JI, BA, Sig of Humility, Ether Sig, maybe Blessed Sig for veils didn't notice...), a Curse Necro with something like Corrupt + Rip Enchant that just tears through your enchant defense and/or a Dom Mesmer that does pretty much the same with Drain/Shatter and adds some Diversion. With 2 monks and hydro runner, i suppose standard setups.

iQ had 3 veil bonded Melandrus and a the Mo/Me kept veil on himself too so Diversion didn't work so well, so basically you can't blind them, and it's not really realistic to rely on hexes with veils + sig of removal in MoI. They destroy your enchants and just tear you appart.

We tried to split, but they didn't even bother to send someone back because they killed our GL before we did more than kill bodyguard. But if we split right off the bat, i can easily see them just send hydro runner back, or hydro + monk if you send a lot of offense, and how can your defensive split really stop them? Enchants don't work so well, you can't blind, you can't really hex. All i see is Ward vs Foes and maybe some linebacking with a hammer warrior to try to hold a defensive split while you send a really offensive one hoping to overpower their base. But even then, i'm thinking that all they could do is turtle, and at VoD 3 Melandrus will laugh hard at your NPCs even if you had some sort of advantage and the damage will just be way too high to handle.

Is there any good tactics working against this, or some weak link in the build to exploit, especially if you end up against it in like Burning Isles and you can't even hope to split efficiently early game? I didn't have much time to notice all their skills and what we could do cause honestly we just didn't last at all, we got crushed when they Humilitied SoD, stripped stuff like Spirit Bond and just reaped our backline while our hexes couldn't stick and we couldn't either blind or cripple (we didn't have it in our build either, but it's not like it would've mattered at all).

So i'm mostly asking advice to some good people that faced it and know of a way to get out of this mess!

Farin · Jul 11, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

I've only played against it once in a pug against some top 100 guild whose name I forgot so I don't really have much advice. When we came up against them we pulled back till their forms went down and we just overpowered their defense. The build is all about buffing and keeping the offense clean so you can't really do much to stop them from doing damage. Just go balls deep on their midline/backline and use the little defense you have to hold you off longer than their zero defense.

Kaon · Jul 11, 2007, 10:40 PM // 22:40

I've faced builds that were something like you said (missing the holy veil bonds though) and it can lead to problems, but has its weaknesses.

As razoo states, their defense is laughable and you can slice through them like a hot knife through butter.
Kite kite kite kite kite prekite prekite prekite + rage REALLY loud if someone isnt kiting.
Interrupt forms.
Aegis, SoD, ward against Melee, Return, it all helps.
A quick 5-3 or 4-4 split may help in the right situation and in emergencies (such a split will kill a lord in a minute and 30 seconds even if they still have ALL their npcs). Though this is by far not always possible or a good plan.
When their forms go down, you've got a minute to teamwipe them, it should be enough.

Try to finish the game before vod, and if it still hits vod, remember that dervishes die really quickly. If you dont kill their frontline instantly in vod, you can resign.

Trooper once told me about a joke build using 3soj smiters and 3w/e earthshaker aftershock warriors. Sounds fun and when you do a coordinated knockdown spike it seems a LOT more dangerous than this

.

sidenote: iQ still plays?

Apok Omen · Jul 12, 2007, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

sidenote: iQ still plays?

One of the many iQ smurfs uses a build similar to that. They have 3 Dervs and a Me/Mo randomly putting smite bonds on them while another midliner destroys the spiked targets' Enchantments. Their defense comes from the Monk bonder/occasional runner. I've witnessed many guilds drop like flies to them...

linh · Jul 12, 2007, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Their exact build is : 3 Melandru, 1 Me/Mo smiter with Signet Removal, Strength of Honor, JI, etc, 1 Me/N Tainted, 2 Mo, 1 Life Barrier bonder flagger. Their 8vs8 offense is crazy. And if you split, they will send one primary monk back.
I can only think some ways atm is multiple copy of Mirror, and split. Not sure how to beat them on heavy 8vs8 map tho.

Kaon · Jul 12, 2007, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Life barrier runner? Surely you must be joking

Avarre · Jul 12, 2007, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

Just go balls deep on their midline/backline and use the little defense you have to hold you off longer than their zero defense.

qft

WASD runs something similar, and the best way to outpressure that I've seen used against us is constant heavy damage on our mid and backline. The only problem with the strategy I've found is if you push too hard the dervishes can take down your own backline in a ridiculously short amount of time. Disrupting Avatars/the smiter can slow down the build significantly as well (take down the smiter and stop SoH going up, dshot Sig of rem, etc); and if you don't, rapid spikes from dervishes through any holes in your defense will shred your team.

Or, if you knew what was coming, you could run Nr/tranq.

Patccmoi · Jul 12, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Life barrier runner? Surely you must be joking

I don't know if that's true but i wouldn't be surprised. I honestly didn't notice against iQ what runner they had. The other guild had an hydro, but iQ we just got pushed back hard and never really managed anything, i was looking at the dervish in my face more =p

One thing that i noticed is that we nearly got a morale boost, even though we were basically in our base. It would make sense if they use a Life Barrier runner, cause basically he could just stick with the team while they're pushing hard, and when the other team breaks run back to get flag again. At worse if the other team gets a Morale Boost i doubt it matters so much to them if they're breaking the team. It would explain who bonded the Holy Veils too, because i assumed it was the smiter, but the smiter was buffing them with stuff like JI too, and using Smite Hex, etc. His energy could've been tight if he was bonding on top (maybe he was using Blessed Sig, but i dunno. It's not like with high smite and high insp you have much points left for Divine Favor).

If he his bonding Life Barrier, then their backline must be seriously hard to kill without massive enchant removal.

Something like NR/Tranq can likely hurt the setup overall (although you'd have a fairly hard time making NR stick, it's not like Melandrus can't run over a trap), but when the counter to something is 'NR/Tranq', there's a problem cause that's not something you can easily incorporate in a balanced setup, it's a completely different team design.

And the iQ smurf we fought against was LUST, they were something like rank 200. 4 iQ players that had recognizable names + 4 from that guild, and it definitely looked like an iQ smurf!

Kaon · Jul 12, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Just faced LUST, though this time they ran 2melandru 2 necros 1mesmer 2mo 1sor runner. It was painful. Especially when you drop all your hex removal because you know americans dont take hexes... Not that it would've mattered much.

Patccmoi · Jul 13, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Just faced LUST, though this time they ran 2melandru 2 necros 1mesmer 2mo 1sor runner. It was painful. Especially when you drop all your hex removal because you know americans dont take hexes... Not that it would've mattered much.

Eh, while in theory you'd want to just go and bash in their backline, the mix of anti-melee hexes combined with the huge pressure on your midline makes it a lot harder to do in the middle of the fight.

It's a very scary build atm.

Kaon · Jul 13, 2007, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Perhaps cos this is a totally different build than smite? Its a hex build with a lot of vodpunch.

Ensign · Jul 13, 2007, 11:52 AM // 11:52

A 3-step guide to running a flag with a Life Barrier Monk!

Step 1: Beat the hell out of their team and their flagger until they are forced to cap first.
Step 2: Walk the flag in with the Barrier Monk while continuing to use Blessed Signet on recharge.
Step 3: When their flagger comes back with another flag, kill him and return it.
Repeat Step 3 until they rout to their boat. Then kill all their dudes and their Guild Lord.

Remember kids, if you kill their flagger you don't have to run flags!

TheOneMephisto · Jul 13, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Remember kids, if you kill their flagger you don't have to run flags!

QFT. I guess if you can guarantee that you can keep 2 mels dervs clean, destroy enemy enchants, and manage to push up smite damage on the dervs, you don't need to run flags if you stay alive long enough to use wearying a couple of times.

Patccmoi · Jul 13, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Perhaps cos this is a totally different build than smite? Its a hex build with a lot of vodpunch.

Oh sorry i assumed the Mes was Me/Mo smite, which would've make it a quite similar build overall (switch a Melandru for a 2nd Nec). If it wasn't the case then no it's just not the same.

And Life Barrier runner is kinda scary for big beatdown build. Guess you have to pick a good target for it and mirror it, it's not so fast and easy to reapply afterwards. But that's not so easy to do with the Aegis chain going on top (i guess anyway, can't really see how you'd go Life Barrier and not give him Aegis), most teams carry just one Mirror.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 13, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Oh sorry i assumed the Mes was Me/Mo smite, which would've make it a quite similar build overall (switch a Melandru for a 2nd Nec). If it wasn't the case then no it's just not the same.

And Life Barrier runner is kinda scary for big beatdown build. Guess you have to pick a good target for it and mirror it, it's not so fast and easy to reapply afterwards. But that's not so easy to do with the Aegis chain going on top (i guess anyway, can't really see how you'd go Life Barrier and not give him Aegis), most teams carry just one Mirror.

Yea. From what I saw last night, they run a corrupt enchant necro, reaper's, and migraine. They also seem to be running death on their necros, because I say rising bile coming from both and at least one rotting flesh. Hexes + 2 dervs + disease makes for killer pressure, and they destroy things at VoD.

And for the life barrier, I guess that you could always coordinate single removal + mirror to get the Aegis off first.

Ensign · Jul 14, 2007, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

QFT. I guess if you can guarantee that you can keep 2 mels dervs clean

Three trees. I don't know who is trying to run triple tree with only two trees, but I think they missed the point.

pah01 · Jul 14, 2007, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Three trees. I don't know who is trying to run triple tree with only two trees, but I think they missed the point.

Don't you mean three trees and a turd tree.

Anyway RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO people who run melandrus dervish. Why? Because immunity to conditions is retarded.

Joe

Farin · Jul 15, 2007, 02:24 AM // 02:24

That and you can literally 1 hit people.

careofapathy · Jul 15, 2007, 05:48 AM // 05:48

It looks like the only real option available to mitigate the pressure from the Melandru's is blocking since blind and hexes are unreliable, as well as cripple and water snares.

Ward Against Foes/Melee are probably the most reliable mitigation you can find, even though they reduce your mobility to nothing and are fairly easy to fit into balance. However, a single interrupt like dblow or leak against the warder could result in massive problems for the team, so the defense needs to be supplemented. A possible method is to use a MoR warder, which I’ve heard is being used by some GvG teams. FC wards cast < 3/4 so they’re much harder to interrupt but MoR can be negated with Wild Blow. You could attempt to use Glyph of Renewal but that can still be interrupted. Mantra of Concentration seems a bit contrived in a balance build to cast wards.

Guardian or Pensive Guardian are probably good supplemental skills to swap into balance since SoD costs 10e and can be stripped by Corrupt. There's probably no need for SoD anyway since Spirit Bond is probably even more effective against Dervishes since it heals, lasts longer, and isn't an elite. SoD ends up being a huge liability since it means you have a Monk running around with a high prot investment and basically no healing options besides Gift. If Guardian or Pensive Guardian get stripped there is much less of an issue. RC is at a disadvantage since Melandru’s simply do massive damage and don't really use many conditions. LoD is strong but in high single target damage situations it’s also at a disadvantage, especially if the LoD doesn’t run RoF, which should probably be spammed every 2s against Melandru’s.

It’s probably a good idea to bring enchantment removal like Corrupt since stripping BA or JI can reduce a lot of damage as well as being useful against the Life Bonder or whatever. Corrupt has a lot of utility against most builds, even if the hex gets removed. Consider placing on a W/N or R/N.

It probably would be possible using a warrior to lineback, but JI+BA means your warrior will probably take massive damage so he better be spamming counter blow and be pretty serious about linebacking because if he’s some dhammer warrior who wants to spike with cb/fierce then he’s pretty much not going to do much besides watching the backline get wiped.

Obviously this is going to be a tough match if you’re running a balance build since midliners not only take massive damage but also having curse and air/water being ineffective hurts, not even mentioning mesmers.

Another thing that comes to mind is some EDenial against the Melandru’s (if you’re running mesmers), by burning their energy it could slow down their offense a good deal while they are in tree form and then mesmers could be effective in a quick push against the enemy backline. That’s if your mesmers can stay alive. Most teams run MoR mesmers anyway, which basically do nothing except maybe pleak a couple BA/JI before they get cut down.

A monk runner would probably be extremely helpful in this situation for a stronger backline. Basically, if you want to play 8v8 against this it looks like you’re going to have to stay alive long enough and make sure you can produce enough pressure on their monks, who essentially have no support. If your monks aren’t good enough, it’s a wipe. If your monks get no support, it’s a wipe. It’s not like the Melandru’s are going to have a tough timing hitting 1234567 repeatedly and pressuring your team.

Splitting doesn’t seem like an easy option since it’s like, who’s going to kill faster? Your warrior + ranger or whatever you have on split, or three giant trees with scythes hitting for 150? Splitting relies a lot on movement and no cripple/snare on tree means you’re going to run out of time really soon. All they need to do is waste some of your time at their base and your stand team is probably going to wipe.

Against a coordinated offense composed of the trees, a balance build probably won’t win 8v8 since Melandru’s is so good at bypassing most balance defenses, which you have to do before VoD anyway. That’s only going to happen if the enemy monks are just not up to par. At VoD you’re almost guaranteed to lose to Melandru’s.

The only real tactic has been mentioned a few times: turtle while tree form is up and try to minimize losses and then push like mad when the most number of trees are on cooldown. Warriors should be extremely aggressive and monks should try to keep them clean, even though they'll be pretty busy. If enemy backline can’t handle it they’ll break. But if they can you’re in some trouble.

Oni Firestarter · Jul 18, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Realistically, their bonds need to go down.

Either a series of Shatter + drain + MoDs to get them down, or a ranger has to somehow get to him. Aegis + taint cover the bonds + veils. If you dont have dual enchants + MoD - you need to divert taint, int aegis right before MoD or something along those lines. Some maps a ranger can get to him. Other maps, he is pretty hooped. If you keep moving their bonder around, you can force their team to lay off a bit. When forms drop, it should be more manageable.

If you feel confident in your defenses ability to hold for about... 3:30 ish, you can force them to run flags which they dont want to do. And it takes about... 3:30 - 4:00 to get ur first boost. How much that will help... i dunno.