Curse

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jul 16, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despozblehero

I just listened to the Balance Podcast its on this thread :: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10177018 :: theres was a lot said that i found interesting ( i mentioned the chess analogy on these forums a lil while ago a few times ^^ lol) and thought that you may like to hear what izzy has to say and others. I dunno if i should feel hopeful about this or fearful... nothing is firsthand mentioned about HA but it sorta sounds like theyre thinking about it...

I've been thinking about becoming a millionare, banging Jessica Alba, and ruling the world.... doesn't mean it's going to happen.

DreamWind · Jul 17, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

I've been thinking about becoming a millionare, banging Jessica Alba, and ruling the world.... doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Bingo...which is why I really don't see what people like Lorekeeper are getting at. People are claiming that old halls was flawed, BUT SO WHAT??? Let's get this straight people:

OLD HALLS=ALIVE COMMUNITY
NEW HALLS=DEAD COMMUNITY
CONCLUSION=OLD IS LESSER OF TWO EVILS

How hard is that to understand? I'm not saying bringing back old halls will revitalize everything, but it will definately have a large effect. People are getting tired of these changes that have all been for the worse for quite some time in halls. And Anet doesn't have time, nor has shown the intention to make any new changes in halls. At this point we should make some kind of last ditch effort to have them just reapply old halls and leave it the hell alone and lets get on with life already.

God Apprentice · Jul 17, 2007, 08:56 AM // 08:56

If they couldn't do old Halls, how about removing Killcount, the relic runs and capture points in Halls, and just having King of The Hill? Is that something you would consider?

Lorekeeper · Jul 17, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

OLD HALLS=ALIVE COMMUNITY
NEW HALLS=DEAD COMMUNITY
CONCLUSION=OLD IS LESSER OF TWO EVILS

You cannot equate the state of the ha community in such simple terms.

Old halls = alive community

Any community of any game is relatively ''alive'' just after release. The game is fresh, ideas fresh, experiences fresh. Problems with the game are fresh. Anet did a good job of giving the game new fresh starts with each new addition to the game... be it the sorrows furnace, the skill updates, the new professions. So instead of things becoming stale like they are now... the community was fed fresh material to dig into.

as people have said, and i have said. The old Halls mechanics were flawed and had its own share of complaints associated with it. But the fresh new additions/content ensured that the gw community as a whole (not just pvp but pve) had new things to focus their minds on instead of dwelling on old problems all the time.

but even then the fresh content wasnt able to keep ALL the players happy. It just acted like a cosmetic cover up for the old problems by introducing new ones. We forgot about old problems because the new ones were fresher and often much more problematic. There definately were people who saw through this ruse, they were confused as to why Anet would continually add new content without dealing with the issues with the old content. EG... soul reaping has been in the game since release, yet 2 years later, after so much new content, it is finally recognised as a problem. Even in the ''old'' times people were leaving... cos they disagreed with Anets approach to the game. It wasnt a huge problem though because the new content kept alot of people from leaving. There probably were other reasons but im sure this was a big factor.

Moving on

new mechanics = dead community

did you not notice that its not only the HA community that is ''dead''? The GvG community is also suffering in terms of activity, due to different issues. But the fact that the gvg community is also dying helps to make my point that without regular new content or updates players havent got anything to take their minds off the issues they are reminded of everytime they play the game. How long has it been since a substantial content update or a skill update that shook the game or diverted our attention this way?

The last update that really changed things was the switch back to 8vs8... and how long ago was that? The biggest change to gvg was the introduction of ATs but instead of solving all the problems with the old system Anet just succeeded in covering them up with a whole bunch of new ones. The GvG community was arguably very much alive before the new ATs were in action... does that mean the old mechanics before the ATs were better? i really hope you see the point im trying to make here.

in conclusion

i think the life of the pvp community (and even more so the pve community) has always been maintained through the addition of new content... allowing the players to divert their attention away from the issues of the older content and learn about the new content. By the time they start complaining about the newer content... another set of new content is released. And over the course of 2 years with 2 substantial content updates the backlog of unaddressed issues with skills and mechanics is quite large. They only just recently recognised the issue with soul reaping!

things would be so different with regards to the pvp community if its life was sustained because of the balance of game mechanics and the lack of perpetual issues like skill balances. Instead of attempting to foster the community this way... it seems that Anet believed that through new content and new skills and new professions they could keep the community alive.

notice that most games that wish to have a long life, also provide periodic updates, whether free or not. However, it becomes problematic when existing issues with a game are not dealt with before new content is added.

we have reached a moment of time in the life of GW that new content is coming less frequently because Anet are devoting more time to GW 2. And the lack of new content is having a drastic impact on the playerbase.

without the release of new content... theres nothing to divert the current players attention away from current issues or the issues they have always had with older mechanics and content... and finally the whole collection of problems that were never addressed from day one take their proper impact on the players who finally decide that enough is enough. New content only delayed the inevitable...

every time Anet introduced new updates they never really solved the old problems... they just covered them up with a whole bunch of new ones.

besides i think you are misreading this poll.

the poll shows that 70% of the GURU HA community would like to remove Kill Count from broken tower and courtyard. With less than 500 votes in total. But Anet have claimed to have sold 3 million copies of the game. What percentage of these 3 million users is 500? (Assuming every game copy sold equates to a unique player and not multiple accounts for a single user).

within this thread an even smaller number of people have expressed concerns with the relic run and capture point in HoH... and a few have supported the King of the Hill mechanic. There really isnt enough data to make sweeping generalisations with regards to these mechanics. For all we know from this poll... the apparent death of the current HA community is due to kill count.

i think its quite a far stretch of statistics to conclude that ALL the new mechanics are responsible for the death of the HA community. You might believe this to be so but you cannot prove it to be so from the poll in this thread.

the only statistical conclusion we can make from this poll is that the majority of Guru HA posters dislike the Kill Count mechanic.

But even then, with less than 500 votes in the poll... its difficult to claim that this is at all representative of the opinion of ALL HA players in the game.

You would need to perform additional polls to make similiar conclusions about the other mechanics.

Please there is no room for wild blanket generalisations, i know patience must be running thin but making these claims is not going to help anything. Its exactly these types of blanket statements without sound rational support that resulted in the move to 6vs6...

Martin Alvito · Jul 17, 2007, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Killcount should die in a fire. End of story.

Altar holding is fine, even excellent, as a win mechanic provided that not all Halls matches are decided by altar hold (due to the potential for abusive builds).

I miss the occasional bloody 3-way melees that resulted when all the ghosts and priests went down before anyone capped on Courtyard (last team standing won).

Effendi Westland · Jul 17, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

The discussion between Death and Lorekeeper brought back some good memories

axe · Jul 17, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effendi Westland

The discussion between Death and Lorekeeper brought back some good memories

I miss Yunas Vs Shard that was the best the HA forums ever were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

But even then, with less than 500 votes in the poll... its difficult to claim that this is at all representative of the opinion of ALL HA players in the game.

I didn't even know that 500 people even still play HA, I think there are some people that might have opened up multiple guru accounts to help the poll because 403 HA'ers is just hax

Lord Mendes · Jul 17, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effendi Westland

The discussion between Death and Lorekeeper brought back some good memories

First Star Wars trilogy?

Randomway Ftw · Jul 17, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Why has Anet done nothing and said nothing despite the fact that killcount is deeply flawed, and the ha community has stated for months that it is not wanted?

Death_From_Above · Jul 17, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

You cannot equate the state of the ha community in such simple terms.

You can infact. This is the problem, anet are over complicating a simple issue. Something which is so easy to fix, rather than taking the straight road anets taking the round about, then a flight to the other side of the world. Rest in a hotel for 4 months before comming back via flight again but then instead of landing at the correct destination, flying to the other side of the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Any community of any game is relatively ''alive'' just after release. The game is fresh, ideas fresh, experiences fresh. Problems with the game are fresh. Anet did a good job of giving the game new fresh starts with each new addition to the game... be it the sorrows furnace, the skill updates, the new professions. So instead of things becoming stale like they are now... the community was fed fresh material to dig into.

? Yes this is true but what new fresh stuff was the HA community given within the 2 years of guildwars. Im on about before the introduction of 6v6.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

as people have said, and i have said. The old Halls mechanics were flawed and had its own share of complaints associated with it.

As iv said and as i would and will say again. If the hold halls mechanics were so flawed and had its own share of complaints associated with it which is how you so religiously claim. Why was the majority of the HA community playing it rather than comming to the forums such as i and many others. I would like to know if old halls mechanics were so flawed and beyond repair why we never had a huge out cry from the players to change them. I rarely came across people who complained about the mechanics to be frank, therefore i would like to pose a challange to settle this case once and for all. I would like those who complained here before the mechanics where changed that they were deeply flawed to come forth and i would like you to show posts asking for the removal of alter maps before the original change in mechanics. There are posts on the HA section from like 2 years back so if alter maps were so hated as you claim surely you should be able to find many begging anet to deal with these mechanics just as you find many posts asking for anet to deal with kill count.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

but even then the fresh content wasnt able to keep ALL the players happy. It just acted like a cosmetic cover up for the old problems by introducing new ones. We forgot about old problems because the new ones were fresher and often much more problematic.

What are you on about guy. Please tell me what new fresh content did the HA community recieve before the change in mechanics. If there is a problem there is a problem people dont forget about it. Its like with 6v6, people complained, kill count came and if you did notnotice people complained about that to also. Though if you noticed people focused more on the 6v6 aspect therefore i believe this puts your theroy through a shreader or shall i say 3.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

EG... soul reaping has been in the game since release, yet 2 years later, after so much new content, it is finally recognised as a problem. Even in the ''old'' times people were leaving... cos they disagreed with Anets approach to the game. It wasnt a huge problem though because the new content kept alot of people from leaving. There probably were other reasons but im sure this was a big factor.

Are you being serious? I dont seem to get you as you seem to come across like this to me. Say to have 3 people. 2 on one side 1 on the other. Now the 1 on the other side runs to the 2 people on the other side to hug them. But they dont end up hugging them but rather run right past them. Thats what what you say comes across as. You run past the obvious. Yes soul reaping had been in the game since its release but it was only until people started abusing it that it actually became a problem that needed to be delt with. Things are ok if they are not being abused, its like chain lightning. It was ok but when it was getting abused now action needed to be taken hence its nurf. I highly doubt it would have got nurfed if only one team was using it or 2 within the whole of HA back in the days. To conclude, things are only a problem as i said if they are abused, soul reaping was not a problem back in the days before b spike as it was not being abused. Even with b spike it was not that bad.

Also, if people hang around because of new content as you claim why is it when the new content of kill count, saw a large demise of the HA population. Yes this is new content, so was 6v6 was it not. Therefore according to you people (many) basically should have continued playing and did continue playing. This clearly shows its not new content that keeps players rather its good new content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

did you not notice that its not only the HA community that is ''dead''? The GvG community is also suffering in terms of activity, due to different issues. But the fact that the gvg community is also dying helps to make my point that without regular new content or updates players havent got anything to take their minds off the issues they are reminded of everytime they play the game.

I have my own theory on this and i would like people to tell me whether they agree. People HAed and this was like a stepping stone to gvg. You had many HA guilds also who par took in both HA and gvg and a few even in the end totaly migrated to gvg. Now with the demise of HA basically all HA oriented guilds fell apart and therefore those split between HA and gvg disapeared. This therefore means we have a decline in the number of good guilds who actually play gvg. Therefore its the death of HA that has affected GVG also. As many guilds would do it like this, they play HA when enough people are on or say alot say like 6 are on they would gvg. Therefore no HA which they primarily did = no people meaning no gvg and no one bothers log on to run about the guild hall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

i think the life of the pvp community (and even more so the pve community) has always been maintained through the addition of new content... allowing the players to divert their attention away from the issues of the older content and learn about the new content.

ADDRESSED ABOVE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

it seems that Anet believed that through new content and new skills and new professions they could keep the community alive.

Obviously then they were wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

we have reached a moment of time in the life of GW that new content is coming less frequently because Anet are devoting more time to GW 2. And the lack of new content is having a drastic impact on the playerbase.

No its the constant bombardment of rubbish content such as kill count being forced upon the community that is having a drastic impact on the player base. You yourself have even admited here anet are devoting more time to gw 2 hence why updates are comming less frequent. Why then do you constantly say anet should not revert HA back to 8v8 alter capping *to which we say add some skill balances to* but rather insist they continue to try working on HA going through many tests processes in doing so which could take for how long even if they never had there minds on gw 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

the poll shows that 70% of the GURU HA community would like to remove Kill Count from broken tower and courtyard. With less than 500 votes in total. But Anet have claimed to have sold 3 million copies of the game. What percentage of these 3 million users is 500?

Firstly what percentage of these 3 million users are pve (hardcore) or casual players. Next have you ever heard of sample, your saying 70 percent of the guru community would like kill count removed but if you didnt notice many people (hard core HAers) hold this belief. Just ask some, ask guilds like DOGS or other guilds like LOTS and many other guilds you dont see now who were hardcore pvpers why they quit and youll find its all because of a similar reason. Ask guilds who migrated to gvg why they did so, even ask the random guy in HA who HAed alot why and hell say exactly the same thing. I know many friends who have quit gw because of these problems or who have gone pve, from the forums i can see this is widespread also. This is basically common sence that the problem at the moment and in the past where kill count 6v6 and needed skill balances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

within this thread an even smaller number of people have expressed concerns with the relic run and capture point in HoH... and a few have supported the King of the Hill mechanic. There really isnt enough data to make sweeping generalisations with regards to these mechanics. For all we know from this poll... the apparent death of the current HA community is due to kill count.
i think its quite a far stretch of statistics to conclude that ALL the new mechanics are responsible for the death of the HA community. You might believe this to be so but you cannot prove it to be so from the poll in this thread.
the only statistical conclusion we can make from this poll is that the majority of Guru HA posters dislike the Kill Count mechanic.
But even then, with less than 500 votes in the poll... its difficult to claim that this is at all representative of the opinion of ALL HA players in the game.

Nope we can come up with better statistical conclusions than that, as i said sample. The chance that a minority of HA players would all vote similarly shows the majority must hold this view point. Its like saying im in a school of which there are 600 students. 30 Like vanila ice cream and 570 like strawberry. I get 30 students at random to step out and i find the 30 students at random which stepped out where they 30 students who liked vanila ice cream. As you can see youself this is highly unlikely to happen, you will most likely get the majority being lovers of strawberry ice cream and so from this you can make a conclusion the majority of children like strawberry ice cream.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

You would need to perform additional polls to make similiar conclusions about the other mechanics.

So tell anet to do it then. I heard we would get a poll on kill count like 6 months or 8 ago but still havent seen it. But we all know the conclusion that would be reached from it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Please there is no room for wild blanket generalisations, i know patience must be running thin but making these claims is not going to help anything. Its exactly these types of blanket statements without sound rational support that resulted in the move to 6vs6...

Erm no it wasnt. Anet did a poll lol which like non of the HA community knew or took part in so to them it was rational support for the move. The whole reason anet moved to 6v6 was because they failed to make sure the information / rational support they were getting was correct.

Let me tell you a true story, a double decker bus got stuck under a bridge because the roof of the bridge was to low. The goverment did not therefore know how to remove the bus without basically destroying it/ cutting it up ect. They brought in the best and top (cant remember the name of them), oh ye thats the name engineers i think it was. The engineerrs couldnt think of a solution. Basically in the end they came up with the decsion to remove the roof of the actually bridge. Then a carpenter came on the scene. He said just deflate the tires and drag the bus out as it would no longer be wedge against the roof of the bridge. They did so and hence got the bus out easily. Now what does this mean, what saying is you dont need to be so technical sometimes lorekeeper. Sometimes you just need to apply common sence in order to get the correct solution.

DreamWind · Jul 17, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Anet did a good job of giving the game new fresh starts with each new addition to the game... be it the sorrows furnace, the skill updates, the new professions. So instead of things becoming stale like they are now... the community was fed fresh material to dig into.

Yea...they made additions to HA that may have been for the better but turned out for the worse. Even if you could make the argument that old HA was getting stale, it is basically fact that all the additions killed it a million times faster. Even though old HA had problems, people stayed. People haven't stayed anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

The old Halls mechanics were flawed and had its own share of complaints associated with it. But the fresh new additions/content ensured that the gw community as a whole (not just pvp but pve) had new things to focus their minds on instead of dwelling on old problems all the time.

And now the people that are left have more or less given up because the old problems were so much easier to deal with than the new ones. I used to be annoyed at holding builds and such, but it doesn't even compare to today. In my opinion, I don't even find HA playable or fun whatsoever anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

But the fact that the gvg community is also dying helps to make my point that without regular new content or updates players havent got anything to take their minds off the issues they are reminded of everytime they play the game. How long has it been since a substantial content update or a skill update that shook the game or diverted our attention this way?

The GvG community was arguably very much alive before the new ATs were in action... does that mean the old mechanics before the ATs were better? i really hope you see the point im trying to make here.

I see your point that new content tries to hides old problems but creates new problems, but isn't that why we should go back to the old format and fix the problems from there? Honestly, that is what Anet screwed up on from the beginning. They thought PvP players wanted all this new content, but really they just wanted the old content fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

i think the life of the pvp community has always been maintained through the addition of new content... allowing the players to divert their attention away from the issues of the older content and learn about the new content.

This is where I completely disagree with you. The life of almost every good PvP community I have ever seen has NOT been maintained through the addition of new content. Hell, most PvP players I know didn't even want new content.

Good PvP communities are maintained when the game has well tuned and balanced gameplay with a company that supports the game and the players. Eventually outside sources like tournaments and leagues among other things add even more to the community. PvP games don't need massive influxes of content to keep their players if the game is good enough on its own. All the players need are minor fixes/updates every now and then...and some games that have been going for years don't even need that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

we have reached a moment of time in the life of GW that new content is coming less frequently because Anet are devoting more time to GW 2. And the lack of new content is having a drastic impact on the playerbase.

PvP was not a major priority for Anet long before they started work on GW2. I still consider the PvE and PvP of GW1 to be two seperate games at this point. PvE players REQUIRE new content, while PvP does not. Anet went the way of PvE and assumed that PvP required new content, thus screwing over the entire thing.

I think the addition of new content had a drastic impact on the declining PvP playerbase, and NOT the LACK of new content. I really don't care that Anet is devoting more time to GW2, because it seems to me they haven't even acknowledged what they REALLY did wrong with GW1 yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

the poll shows that 70% of the GURU HA community would like to remove Kill Count from broken tower and courtyard. With less than 500 votes in total. But Anet have claimed to have sold 3 million copies of the game. What percentage of these 3 million users is 500? (Assuming every game copy sold equates to a unique player and not multiple accounts for a single user).

And I wouldn't want all 3 million voting when most of them have never even played HA to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

the only statistical conclusion we can make from this poll is that the majority of Guru HA posters dislike the Kill Count mechanic.

But even then, with less than 500 votes in the poll... its difficult to claim that this is at all representative of the opinion of ALL HA players in the game.

You would need to perform additional polls to make similiar conclusions about the other mechanics.

Fair enough, but it would be impossible to conduct these polls with any seriousness. With so much biased data and never large enough sample sizes, there will never be an accurate picture. I am simply going by the general view I get from reading various forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

I know patience must be running thin but making these claims is not going to help anything. Its exactly these types of blanket statements without sound rational support that resulted in the move to 6vs6...

Patience wearing thin? LoL. Let's look at it this way...I think both of us want HA to be better and have a thriving community, but the only way that is going to happen is if Anet steps in and does something. And when is the last time anybody from Anet read this thread? And even if they read it, its not like they can do anything about it. And even if they could do anything about it, its not like they WOULD do anything about it. Am I right?

So to be honest, I think we are all wasting our time at this point. I make posts in here simply in response to other posters, and not with the ridiculous notion that my ideas on change for HA will actually reach the people in charge or miraculously happen. So yes, my patience is beyond thin with Anet. Its dead and buried.

As for your 6v6 comment...its not blanket statements that caused it. Its incredibly bad polls and data, and a company that believed them.

Kyp Jade · Jul 18, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

I'll not even talk about the HoH map, winning HoH is half politcs these days. Cap pts and Relic runs if someone wants you to lose, youll lose.

Kill count on the other hand I'm a supporter of, but it needs to be fixed. The mechanic is fine, and no one can force you to lose. If you complain about losing cause a nub heroway ganked you, then maybe you should watch the map more. Kill count also does not support spike builds, or pressure builds, or anything. it just forces non-spike teams to adjust thier tactics. Spike teams however its the same for them. Kill and Kill and Kill repeatedly. On most maps its kill till they run out of reses and then kill hard reser. On kill count they dont have to pay attention to the hard reser.

Balance teams and even smart heroways that know what they are doing however, its about forcing the other two teams to play into you. You cant stay and pressure for long, and its a lot harder to heal/prot on kill count, because your trying to move quickly. When you play balance, you have to try to posistion your team, and the other 2 teams so that you can apply all your pressure quick, and get out fast, sometimes youll score kills, sometimes you wont. Trust me when i say its a LOT easier if a team is trying to gank you, cause you already know how they will react to your moves.

HOWEVER, as much fun as it is to play the dance of dots game (radar), two issues really need to be addressed or the map objective needs to be dropped. IMO these are huge flaws in design.

1) Ghostly hero being rambo after he gets resed. Anyone else think its stupid a team can score 2 kills every minute cause its too hard to pick up the ghost, anytime you get near it he runs from you. #%$#!!

2) Res point. I do this all the time, 10 quick kills is often gg. Body block the res shrine and kill cause they cant kite out of it. The only way I see to fix this is to make the res shrines more open, or to res like you do in RA, at the point closest to your team, or the point closest to your team WITHOUT an enemy team in front of you.

The format could be fun, it promotes hit and run style tactics (i would think gvg type players would love it) and forces a high level of communication on your team. Brain dead builds get punished for trying to play braindead tactics. (heroway)

Lorekeeper · Jul 18, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Yes this is true but what new fresh stuff was the HA community given within the 2 years of guildwars. Im on about before the introduction of 6v6.

4 new professions... countless new skills... this is new content for pve players and pvp. New profesions and skill have always had drastic impacts on the HA meta.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

therefore i would like to pose a challange to settle this case once and for all. I would like those who complained here before the mechanics where changed that they were deeply flawed to come forth

most old players are gone. Youre asking for the impossible. No to mention the wrong assumption that those who didnt like old mechanics were members of this forum anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

There are posts on the HA section from like 2 years back so if alter maps were so hated as you claim surely you should be able to find many begging anet to deal with these mechanics just as you find many posts asking for anet to deal with kill count.

there are many issues with gvg that arent in the guru gvg forum... does this mean they dont exist? please... its very narrow minded to believe that a fansite forum is the ONLY place you will find issues about a game. I have been playing the game almost since release yet i only started posting on these forums a few months ago... did my opinions not exist because i didnt post here?

i only bother to post because there is such a lack of new stuff to take my attention. Without anything new to play with i have more time to think about the existing problems and post about them. Back then we had Sorrows furance... then Factions to play through... 2 new classes to experiment with... loads of new skills... Then we had Nightfall to play with... 2 more classes etc etc.

it really seems like the amount of whining posts has coincided with the lack of fresh content. How long has it been since new content? almost a year? No wonder people are whining more now than ever before... they got no new stuff to divert their attention. This is the explanation for you.

i cant prove this of course, but it is an interesting point to make nevertheless. You argue that the lack of whines about the old mechanics proves that there werent as many people unhappy about them as i claim, and you argue that the amount of whines about current mechanics shows most people are unhappy with them.

i argue that the whining is only occuring cos alot of people dont have anything better to do. I wouldnt be suprised if half the people who whine about mechanics dont actually play the game anymore. And if they were playing the game still it would probably be because there was some new content like a new chapter. And they wouldnt wanna waste time whining on forums... they would spend their time playing with the new stuff.. unlocking new skills... getting new titles etc etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Please tell me what new fresh content did the HA community recieve before the change in mechanics.

again
4 new professions... countless new skills... do you honestly need to ask this question? are you that shortsighted?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Yes soul reaping had been in the game since its release but it was only until people started abusing it that it actually became a problem that needed to be delt with. Things are ok if they are not being abused, its like chain lightning. It was ok but when it was getting abused now action needed to be taken hence its nurf. I highly doubt it would have got nurfed if only one team was using it or 2 within the whole of HA back in the days. To conclude, things are only a problem as i said if they are abused, soul reaping was not a problem back in the days before b spike as it was not being abused. Even with b spike it was not that bad.

this is just wrong

things are not imbalanced because they are overused and abused... they are overused and abused because they are imbalanced and only until an imbalance is identified is it suddenly overused and abused. The fact is... many gimmick builds could have been prevented if better attention was given to skills before they were released into the game. It doesnt take something to be abused or overused for it to be imbalanced.

Your point seems to be... as long as something isnt abused its not a problem... why would something need to be changed if it isnt having any impact on the game. Well the point is... if there is something clearly imbalanced... its only a matter of time before it is exploited. Its better to catch the imbalances before they are exploited by the players...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Also, if people hang around because of new content as you claim why is it when the new content of kill count, saw a large demise of the HA population. Yes this is new content, so was 6v6 was it not. Therefore according to you people (many) basically should have continued playing and did continue playing. This clearly shows its not new content that keeps players rather its good new content.

i was not referring to kill count nor the new mechanics... i was making a very general statement about new content like new skills... new pve content... new professions. Whether good or not... new content in a game keeps things fresh. Even bad content can keep players, because until they realise its bad content they still play the game. Thats my point... Anet are able to coverup even bad content because they timed release of new content in time so that as soon as the players got sick of the issues with the existing content they had new stuff to play around with. Then when they learned the newer content was problematic too they got yet another set of new content... do u understand what i mean?

im not making a statement about what content should keep players... i agree that good content should keep players i never said it wouldnt. But Anet have worked around this problem by continually adding new content and continually overshadowing past and existing issues with this new content. They dont even need to add ''good'' content.

with regards to kill count and 6vs6... they are both example of updates to the game that were clearly wrong. But my point about new content was mainly about new pve chapters... new skills... new professions. This is the stuff that helped keep players playing... that helped Anet coverup the old issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

You yourself have even admited here anet are devoting more time to gw 2 hence why updates are coming less frequent. Why then do you constantly say anet should not revert HA back to 8v8 alter capping *to which we say add some skill balances to* but rather insist they continue to try working on HA going through many tests processes in doing so which could take for how long even if they never had there minds on gw 2.

i post my ideas... my suggestions... i dont care what Anet is doing with their time. The purpose of my posts is that at least they dont have the excuse that there arent any constructive suggestions in the community... so the only ones to blame for the problems are themselves. I was quite astounded when i heard one person from Anet state that there wasnt enough good constructive feedback from the game community... so thats why i post on these forums. I realise Anet must be spending most if not all their time developing new things but that doesnt stop me from posting my ideas on how to fix current things. It might be a vain hope that they actually take these ideas on board but i reckon if they did HA would be for the better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

your saying 70 percent of the guru community would like kill count removed but if you didnt notice many people (hard core HAers) hold this belief. Just ask some, ask guilds like DOGS or other guilds like LOTS and many other guilds you dont see now who were hardcore pvpers why they quit and youll find its all because of a similar reason. Ask guilds who migrated to gvg why they did so, even ask the random guy in HA who HAed alot why and hell say exactly the same thing. I know many friends who have quit gw because of these problems or who have gone pve, from the forums i can see this is widespread also. This is basically common sence that the problem at the moment and in the past where kill count 6v6 and needed skill balances.

i dont understand the purpose of this part of your post... i dont need you to prove to me that kill count is a problem i also believe the general consensus outside the forums mimics the results of the poll. But anyone quoting from a single forum poll with only 400 voters cannot claim much at all about things outside the poll audience. My point about the 70% was in reaction to the assertion that the poll was an accurate or comprehensive representation of the entire gw population... even the HA population. Sampling has huge limitations because it is not always easy to extrapolate from a small sample to generalise about the wider population. Anet should not look at the poll as a comprehensive representation of things... which is sorta what some posters here seem to believe when they use this poll as the basis for their arguments about HA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Nope we can come up with better statistical conclusions than that, as i said sample. The chance that a minority of HA players would all vote similarly shows the majority must hold this view point.

it doesnt show this at all. Thats an extrapolation that depends on many things. A minority of HA people voted for 6vs6 to be permanent, however it turned out only to be a vocal minority rather than the wishes of the greater majority of HA players... they voted in polls and made Anet think everyone wanted 6vs6. You cannot tell from the poll itself whether the 70% of the 400 voters are just a vocal minority or actually represent the views of the wider HA community in the game. The only way for Anet to get the wider picture would be to perform a wide range of in game polls to the right audiences.

it is extremely hard for them to figure out what the majority wants... and i dont think they even care about giving the majority what it wants anymore. They tried this in the past and it resulted in 6vs6 which turned out to be a disaster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

He said just deflate the tires and drag the bus out as it would no longer be wedge against the roof of the bridge. They did so and hence got the bus out easily. Now what does this mean, what saying is you dont need to be so technical sometimes lorekeeper. Sometimes you just need to apply common sence in order to get the correct solution.

your analogy is totally irrelevant... your style of justification is quite funny. You make up irrelevant analogies to backup an irrelevant argument... and you seem to believe that doing this helps to support your views concerning HA.

what kind of an engineer would not have come up with the idea to deflate the tyres? This is where your analogy fails... its pretty clear that the engineers being called in to solve the issue were not up to the job. Please refrain from these ridiculous analogies, they are wrong and totally irrelevant.

at the end of the day there is no need for Anet to look at ANY polls regarding issues concerning HA mechanics.

the first case where doing this failed was 6vs6. I hope Anet learnt a good lesson from this failure.

there were many well thought out reasons why 6vs6 was a bad idea. Yet Anet ignored these reasons and listened to a vocal minority of players who liked 6vs6.

only after months and months of continual whining did Anet realise their mistake and revert back to 8vs8. But the whole thing could have been avoided if they had read and taken into account the arguments for and against 6vs6. The arguments against 6vs6 made it abundantly clear it was the wrong decision and the events that transpired after its introduction to HA only proved these concerns to be true.

The same goes for kill count... there is NO need for a poll... the day it was introduced it was obvious that kill count was going to be a problem. You only need to look at the mechanics behind kill count to realise this.

-3 way
-kills based on dmg dealt to target 10 seconds before death

alarm bells ring...
spike builds will dominate
direct dmg... DoT...

shutdown? degen?

like you said... you just need some common sense to identify problems before they arise.

If Anet presented kill count as a possible new mechanic i would definately have told them to forget about it.

The same applied to relic runs in HoH... the old map had tiny corridors, which made blocking runners incredibly easy. But it took a while before they did anything about this... but to be honest it was an issue that could and should have been identified before its implementation.

The same goes for capture points... just looking at the mechanics... before you even observe or play a match... its obvious that it wouldnt reach its full potential on the HoH map without a major map redesign.

taking a analytical and technical approach to these mechanics before their implementation could have avoided many of the issues we seem to be stuck with today.

And yes... it only takes common sense to identify many of these issues mentioned above.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jul 18, 2007, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Nice essays everyone, it's a damn shame that I, like many others, didn't take the time to read them because I'd be here until tomorrow morning. I agree that the poll on guru is skewed having only 500 people... because in regards to the HA player base, many, many more than 70% want killcount gone. Seriously though people, stop writing essays... it's ridiculous.

Lorekeeper · Jul 18, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Yea...they made additions to HA that may have been for the better but turned out for the worse. Even if you could make the argument that old HA was getting stale, it is basically fact that all the additions killed it a million times faster. Even though old HA had problems, people stayed. People haven't stayed anymore.

but the whole point of my post was that there were other factors behind the fact that people stayed. Its not so simple to say that they stayed cos old HA mechanics were fine... Please read my post again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I see your point that new content tries to hides old problems but creates new problems, but isn't that why we should go back to the old format and fix the problems from there? Honestly, that is what Anet screwed up on from the beginning. They thought PvP players wanted all this new content, but really they just wanted the old content fixed.

well we keep going over this again and again... king of the hill quite neatly solves all of the concerns with the old altar mechanics... its just the other mechanics that were introduced like kill count that were cosmetic fixes to old problems... and instead of solving older problems it just introduced a new one and negated the good changes that came with the HoH rotation.

map rotation in HoH was meant to prevent people designing builds to win on 1 map at the end of the rotation. They hoped that having a rotation would encourage people to run builds that were diverse... instead of being focused on only a few jobs and thereby limiting the creativity of builds. To hold HoH they wanted you to be good at running relics... at splitting... and at surviving vs 2 teams in a straight fight. The idea behind this is great! Just the implementation failed miserably.

this very admirable intention was destroyed by their introduction of kill count to broken tower and courtyard which did the exact opposite and forced the meta into a narrow set of builds that focus on spike or direct dmg rather than degen or shutdown. Remove kill count, tweak king of the hill and i am very confident that the original intentions behind introduction of the new mechanics would actually take root.

Capture points has no place on such a limited map... HoH map is very limited in terms of paths. Splitting effectively is almost impossible... since splitting effectively requires multiple escape routes and the ability to sneak to place without being seen.

Relic run fails because it actually rewards you for capping slower than anyone else rather than faster. And its extremely difficult to pull ahead of the other teams anyway. Attempting to do so only focuses the 2 other teams attentions onto you and could cost you the game.

if these mechanics were implement better they would have been GREAT additions to HA. Its just... i dont think they really put enough effort into these changes... the fact no new maps have ever been added to HA is a significant problem and highlights this lack of real effort. Ideally these new mechanics required new maps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

This is where I completely disagree with you. The life of almost every good PvP community I have ever seen has NOT been maintained through the addition of new content. Hell, most PvP players I know didn't even want new content.

Good PvP communities are maintained when the game has well tuned and balanced gameplay with a company that supports the game and the players. Eventually outside sources like tournaments and leagues among other things add even more to the community. PvP games don't need massive influxes of content to keep their players if the game is good enough on its own. All the players need are minor fixes/updates every now and then...and some games that have been going for years don't even need that.

PvP was not a major priority for Anet long before they started work on GW2. I still consider the PvE and PvP of GW1 to be two seperate games at this point. PvE players REQUIRE new content, while PvP does not. Anet went the way of PvE and assumed that PvP required new content, thus screwing over the entire thing.

I think the addition of new content had a drastic impact on the declining PvP playerbase, and NOT the LACK of new content. I really don't care that Anet is devoting more time to GW2, because it seems to me they haven't even acknowledged what they REALLY did wrong with GW1 yet..

i never said all games pvp communities were or should be maintained by regular content updates. I said that Anet has maintained its pve and pvp community with regular content updates. They did not concentrate on ironing out existing issues before they added new content... and so instead of solving old problems they merely let people forget about them by giving them new things to play with. I also would much have rathered Anet make sure the original content was working well before adding new content... but seeing as their business model required them to add new chapters every 6 months, and with their staff split into 2 teams working on 2 different chapters in tandem with eachother, it was almost impossible for them to do this.

I never said that the lack of new content has forced many players to leave the game. What i said was that the lack of content is finally allowing the players to realise that the existing content is so full of problems already. The constant updates in the past covered this reality up... Anet might not have intended it to be so... but the content updates they provided actually helped to hide the flaws in the mechanics of the game that existed from the onset.

GW:EN has come way too late... its been a almost year since the last chapter and their inability to resolve problems as they happen has taken a harsh toll on the community.

And to think there are yet 100 more pvp skills to be added soon.

if only they diverted as many resources fixing existing content... what a different story these forums would tell.

Lorekeeper · Jul 18, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Nice essays everyone, it's a damn shame that I, like many others, didn't take the time to read them because I'd be here until tomorrow morning. I agree that the poll on guru is skewed having only 500 people... because in regards to the HA player base, many, many more than 70% want killcount gone. Seriously though people, stop writing essays... it's ridiculous.

you didnt take the time read through the posts yet you found the time to post to let everyone know that you didnt take the time to read their posts. i find this quite amusing. Are you as contradictory in real life as you are on these forums?

if you dont want to participate in a discussion... take a step back from it. But some people actually enjoy debating issues to their death.

I certainly do and i wont stop just because some ignorant person doesnt like it.

DreamWind · Jul 18, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Snip

Well...I think I've somehow deciphered your posts (I wish they weren't all over the place though) and come to the conclusion that we agree on most things. We both want HA to be better, revitalized, etc etc...

The problem is Anet isn't gonna do it. Period.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jul 18, 2007, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

you didnt take the time read through the posts yet you found the time to post to let everyone know that you didnt take the time to read their posts. i find this quite amusing. Are you as contradictory in real life as you are on these forums?

if you dont want to participate in a discussion... take a step back from it. But some people actually enjoy debating issues to their death.

I certainly do and i wont stop just because some ignorant person doesnt like it.

Quote:

think the life of the pvp community (and even more so the pve community) has always been maintained through the addition of new content

new mechanics = dead community

I'm the one contradicting myself? Actually, I see what you were trying to say here fairly well, I just feel like picking apart every word of your post just like you do to everyone else's.

God Apprentice · Jul 18, 2007, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

I'll not even talk about the HoH map, winning HoH is half politcs these days. Cap pts and Relic runs if someone wants you to lose, youll lose.

Kill count on the other hand I'm a supporter of, but it needs to be fixed. The mechanic is fine, and no one can force you to lose. If you complain about losing cause a nub heroway ganked you, then maybe you should watch the map more. Kill count also does not support spike builds, or pressure builds, or anything. it just forces non-spike teams to adjust thier tactics. Spike teams however its the same for them. Kill and Kill and Kill repeatedly. On most maps its kill till they run out of reses and then kill hard reser. On kill count they dont have to pay attention to the hard reser.

Balance teams and even smart heroways that know what they are doing however, its about forcing the other two teams to play into you. You cant stay and pressure for long, and its a lot harder to heal/prot on kill count, because your trying to move quickly. When you play balance, you have to try to posistion your team, and the other 2 teams so that you can apply all your pressure quick, and get out fast, sometimes youll score kills, sometimes you wont. Trust me when i say its a LOT easier if a team is trying to gank you, cause you already know how they will react to your moves.

HOWEVER, as much fun as it is to play the dance of dots game (radar), two issues really need to be addressed or the map objective needs to be dropped. IMO these are huge flaws in design.

1) Ghostly hero being rambo after he gets resed. Anyone else think its stupid a team can score 2 kills every minute cause its too hard to pick up the ghost, anytime you get near it he runs from you. #%$#!!

2) Res point. I do this all the time, 10 quick kills is often gg. Body block the res shrine and kill cause they cant kite out of it. The only way I see to fix this is to make the res shrines more open, or to res like you do in RA, at the point closest to your team, or the point closest to your team WITHOUT an enemy team in front of you.

The format could be fun, it promotes hit and run style tactics (i would think gvg type players would love it) and forces a high level of communication on your team. Brain dead builds get punished for trying to play braindead tactics. (heroway)

Actually you can be forced to lose on Killcount, if one team starts feeding another kills.

1. Agreed, Ghostly needs to stop thinking he's Rambo.
2. Spawn camping is a cheap, but effective tactic.

Even though Heroway is pretty braindead, a lot of people who run it think the key to winning is gank gank gank. I'm sure we've all watched matches with Heroways not being able to cap points efficently, or pressing c space and having at it.

Lorekeeper · Jul 18, 2007, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

I'm the one contradicting myself? Actually, I see what you were trying to say here fairly well, I just feel like picking apart every word of your post just like you do to everyone else's.

i only pick apart the posts that need picking apart. Im sorry if you feel victimised but perhaps you should try being less argumentative for the sake of being argumentative and start actually making good posts and stop contradicting yourself.

and please elaborate as to why you quoted that part of my post i dont understand what you are trying to highlight?

if you were trying to accuse me of being contradictory... how does that section help you prove this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragons Lorekeeper

think the life of the pvp community (and even more so the pve community) has always been maintained through the addition of new content

new mechanics = dead community

what you failed to do was to quote my post accurately... this is actually what it was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragons Lorekeeper

You cannot equate the state of the ha community in such simple terms.
new mechanics = dead community

.... part of post missing...

i think the life of the pvp community (and even more so the pve community) has always been maintained through the addition of new content....

we have reached a moment of time in the life of GW that new content is coming less frequently because Anet are devoting more time to GW 2. And the lack of new content is having a drastic impact on the playerbase.

You completely misquoted me and took out part of the post and placed it in the wrong place... somehow you think that doing this shows a contradiction.

But if i rearrange parts of peoples posts, take a word out here and there... replace words here and there... i can make anyone say anything i want them to say. But i would be fabricating evidence.

its amusing that your attempt to misquote me in order to display a contradiction... actually failed to show a contradiction at all. Why? Because the use of that correlation as a title heading for a section of my post was my attempt to tackle its suggestion as reality by another poster. Its use as a title heading for that section in no way suggested i actually believed it was true and a passing glance at the post and its purpose would have allowed you to realise this.

I fail to see how i contradicted myself. But i expect you will troll through the thread in attempt to find yet another obscure example of me being contradictory. Have fun.

try not to misquote me next time, its a sign of desperation.