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| View Poll Results: Would you like killcount to be removed from HA? | |||
| Yes, I would like it to be removed from all maps. |
   
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302 | 69.43% |
| No, leave it, killcount is fine. |
  
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46 | 10.57% |
| Remove killcount on Broken Tower; Leave it on Courtyard. |
  
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46 | 10.57% |
| Remove killcount on Courtyard; Leave it on Broken Tower. |
  
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41 | 9.43% |
| Voters: 435. This poll is closed | |||
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Jul 07, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13
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#281 | |||||||||
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Dec 2006
Profession: W/E
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Quote:
Many people did like it in fact, as iv said and will say 100 times for you being you seem to ask questions which answers to are constantly given. How many people and how many posts did you see being thrown around asking for mechanic changes with 8v8 alter capping? I checked with nurse on this if i recal, there were basically non. Now if alter capping was such a problem as you so frequently insist why was there no up roar regarding it like that which we are seeing with kill count. Quote:
I remember it like it was yesterday when everyone was complaining to galie to change HA back to 8v8 and she was like oh were working on something which youll find extreamily fun i promise you. Some fun it turned out to be, if you didnt happen to notice guy. These mechanics where all implimented with 6v6 which is totaly different to 8v8. Firstly you had holding builds running around, i believe these mechanics where ment to deter this also. So to answer your question, the reason these mechanics where added was for 6v6 as alter capping on 6V6 did not work to well. Quote:
Not everyone took cg rangers dude lol just a few. Its like saying how many people took wars. They took it if they could fit it or if they needed it, it really depends on your build. Infusers sick of infusing blood spike 24 7? You sure your ok? Infusers infuse many things not just blood spike for one. In HA history there was a sudden boom in b spike where everyone wanted to run it but in time this declined and it just became like any other build / gimmick. Some people ran it not everyone. As for interupt wars, i know very few people who were sick of it an those who might have been i thought you claimed alot of them quit because of it? Interupt wars means you have to use skill and tatics to over come your opponant. Stop crying just because you couldnt do this. Or rather would you have, a teams holding halls. Both teams kill ghost, but oh look no interupt wars so its just based on luck at who will cap first. Now both teams have to fight again to remove team off alter. They kill ghost, oh look the original holding team get the cap first. Basically we get the element of luck being larger meaning the greater skilled team most likely will not win. Think of how long it takes to kill a teams ghost, prob 30. Now if we were to have no interupt wars were going to have a common trend of basically someone can cap the alter roughly on a note of every 30 secs or even more. Quote:
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Also how many times did you see 8 monks in HA? Also, you seem to have only mentioned 2 possible holding builds to me one being 8 monks which is not very hard to defeat and blood spike which as you can see there soul reaping got a nurf so i doubt these guys will be a problem. Also wouldnt this rather be overpowered at the time rather than the mechanics and lastly they were not impossible to beat also because if you didnt notice they didnt take any interupts or many if i recall. If holding builds were such a problem surely there must be more because number one i never saw blood spike in Halls as much as you claim and if they were in for 24 7 why could i enter halls with my team, and have the ambition to win it and win it? Surely one of these holding builds woulda owned me if they were truely impossible to kick off an where on 24 7. The absurdity of your claims is beyond belief. So basically we can exclude the 8 monks as a holding build as i have said they were not a problem. So were only left with one and thats blood spike although it wasnt much of a problem. So your telling me anet changed a whole mechanic because of one build that could have been nurfed? If this was not the only holding build please do write out the builds for more. Quote:
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If you dont understand what gimmie money is saying then all i can say is you need help. Its a simple concept so let me see if i can explain it to you. Anet are not willing to spend much time on HA. Therefore rather than try and get them to do lots of work on it, being that there unwilling to do anything in the first place. Just ask them to restore it to its former glory which is very little work. Therefore although there unwilling, due to the fact what we are asking for is so little they will do it. Old school alter capping worked, it wouldnt be a huge job to get done. Just in case you still have not got it, think of it like this. A guy is hired to repair a mans house however hes got multiple jobs going on. Now the job he has to do for the guy who hired him is a big one so hes reluctant to do it as he is so busy. Therefore the guy says ok, let me cut the work down for you. Just do this little thing and all will be well. Now the hired guy, says ok because he knows it wont involve much work therefore disterbing the other jobs he has and also it will result in the same result of the man who hired him being happy if he were to have done the whole big job. |
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Jul 08, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13
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#282 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jul 2006
Guild: Nine Inch Veils [hex]
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the old system was ok. i dont have a clue why anet wants to prevent holding the hall of heroes.
On Killcount and especially the HoH, you're almost every time instructed by the other team, except youre running l337 rt spike.... /yawn. First of all, relic run is bullshit and takes too much time, because all teams have the same score until ~1.30-2.00 they start "powerrun". so why not reducing the time to 3 minutes ? 7minutes are ridiculous, because u cant dp anyone or something like this. The king of the hill mod is pretty interesting and would be a good solution for all killcount-maps ( a rt nerf is necessary ). capture points are just ghay, too many ganks there. |
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Jul 08, 2007, 08:00 AM // 08:00
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#283 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Oct 2006
Profession: E/Mo
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Quote:
It isn't "Anet is unwilling to do anything so the only logical solution would for be for them to do something". INSTEAD it is "Anet is very UNLIKELY to do anything so the only logical solution is to give the the MOST LIKELY thing they may possibly do". How do I know Anet is unlikely to do anything? Because with GW:EN, GW2, PvE, and a bunch of other stuff on Anets list, I can tell you right now that HA is no where near priority. Why not just have them simply put it back to old HA as a quick fix? It must be easier and less time consuming to reapply old saved already working and established code than to implement new code that needs to tested and updated regularly, which is a fair enough assumption. Why put back old HA when so many people complained about it? Because new HA is WORSE than old HA. We are talking the old HA was the LESSER OF TWO EVILS. How do I know that it is the lesser of two evils? Well for starters look at this thread. And for more evidence, look at the old HA community and new HA community. Alive vs dead. Bringing back old HA would almost certainly bring SOME sort of revitalization. It doesn't matter though...most people probably don't agree with me. Besides, at this point I think the most likely thing Anet will do is nothing (at least not anytime soon). After knowing them for over 2 years, I have no evidence convincing me otherwise. Last edited by DreamWind; Jul 08, 2007 at 08:07 AM // 08:07.. |
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Jul 13, 2007, 03:27 AM // 03:27
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#284 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Aug 2005
Profession: W/E
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instead of making all these changes to halls. Why not just revert it back to the classical style?
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Jul 13, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40
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#285 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jan 2006
Profession: Me/
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cause thered be problems with that too
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Jul 13, 2007, 01:12 PM // 13:12
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#286 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Derka-Derka Land
Guild: Steel Phoenix (StP)
Profession: E/
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Quote:
The most common balanced setup by the last days of 8v8 were 2 warriors, 2 chocking gas/seeking arrows rangers, a warder, and 3 monks. Some teams had a PD instead of one of the chocking gas, but that's about it really. Some people even had PD on their warder in addition to the two seeking arrows rangers. I agree, they weren't in all the balanced team (that all really saved you there, I can't argue against something non-absolute), but they were in the vast majority, especially those that won and held halls. |
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Jul 13, 2007, 01:57 PM // 13:57
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#287 |
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Banned
Join Date: Jan 2007
Profession: Mo/Me
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defense + interrupts = essential to hold the old halls
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Jul 13, 2007, 11:35 PM // 23:35
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#288 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Dec 2006
Profession: W/E
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Quote:
Now about the 2 chocking gass rangers, im not sure about you but i bumped into teams running this set up once in a while infact not very often but yes its been a while since we have played that meta of halls so this may be a bit ????? but from memory thats what i remember. Teams also running this set up also had disadvantages on other maps for example say relic run they may be be as agile as there oponants ect. Anyways regarding holding halls with it *that being the majority* would be able to get anyone else to confirm this? Also, people running such a build dose not make them impossible to beat, i believe such a build is rather easy to kick out of halls if there holding being people mostly destroy the holding team or there pressured so much killing rangers is not very difficult. |
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Jul 13, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46
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#289 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jul 2006
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I'd say about 70% of balanced teams had at least one CG, but <40% had 2... that may sound like a lot, but there weren't loads of balanced teams... and I never found it that hard to shut down their CGs anyway...
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Jul 13, 2007, 11:56 PM // 23:56
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#290 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Dec 2006
Profession: W/E
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We are talking in relation to 2 cgs so that means 60 percent of teams never had 2 cgs. So this means the chance i would bump into a team with 2 cg rangers was less than 1/2. Basically 2/5 then of the HA population had 2 cg rangers, this is very small in comparrision to lorekeepers estimation of basically every balanced team you almost fought having one.
So If we calculate even more then its 2/5 of 9 which is like 3.6 out of the 9 maps in HA you would fight a balanced team with 2 cg rangers. This seems rather small and remember you will likely fight even less than this. But as i said before, these teams were not as agile against other balanced teams on other maps like relic runs so whats the problem? To me it appears to be just another build but lorekeeper you seem to make it out to be a problem in HA at that time. Bear in mind not everyone ran balanced as gimmie said but iv done it on calculation if every one ran balanced. So lets say about 40 percent of the pop run balanced so it means 2/5s of 40 percent of the population ran such a build. Common, i doubt it. Last edited by Death_From_Above; Jul 14, 2007 at 12:00 AM // 00:00.. |
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Jul 14, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30
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#291 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Quote:
Disadvantages of running 2 cg rangers on relic runs? Do you have any idea how balanced teams work? Do you remember what used to be a popular tactic on relic runs for balanced teams? Stair blocking on the 1st relic map and corridor blocking on the 2nd relic map. Some teams would split 4-4... 2 on each stair case so that noone could get to the relic. The other 4 would attempt to run a relic. If you couldnt get past the blockers you took people off your defense team to help knock out the enemy blockers. But that usually only happened in matches between 2 balanced teams... where it usually came down to who could sustain a block and who couldnt. even without this blocking technique (which alot of teams failed at)... having 2 cg rangers doesnt mean your team fails at relic runs. With a 3 monk backline that leaves you with 3 other characters who can bring run skills and/or snares. But back in those days people brought very little relic run utility, there was no need to specialise heavily for these maps since the main maps to be successful on was altar maps. Balanced teams who had most success on relic runs where those who blody blocked the best in wards with shock or who could maintain solid blocks on stairs. As to your comments on the survivability of 2 cg ranger balanced builds in HoH. Killing these teams was never the issue... the 3 monk backlines were fragile and could not hold out indefinately vs 2 organised teams. But Balanced teams holding HoH never really expected to keep their ghost alive and hold that way... their method of holding was to prevent enemy teams from capping and to recap the altar once their ghost rezzed. So many teams succeeded in holding because noone actually capped the altar once the blue ghost had died. It resulted in alot of frustration... because it was sometimes impossible to stop all the interrupters in time to win. Rangers are actually relatively hard to kill. They have excellent armour vs elemental damage and they now have a great defensive stance in the form of natural stride. Back then they used whirling defense or lightning reflexes to protect themselves from attackers. Their stances combined with their high armour made them very difficult to kill if you didnt have the right dmg for it. Try to spike one and they would immediately activate their stance. Of course, if you are talking from a bloodspike perspective... all classes are fair game since your dmg is lifesteal but for the average balanced team, targetting a ranger was not as viable as targetting a monk or ele or mes. i have fond memories of Brehon;s cg rangers... they used frenzy as their IAS... as hard as rangers are to kill... bringing frenzy on one is pretty silly. I used to love spiking frenzied cg rangers. but i must make this clear for you. kicking people out of halls in altar holding mechanics is never a simple case of just killing them. You cannot evaluate a builds strength in HoH purely on its defensive capability. Balanced teams never expected to survive against 2 organised teams. The game isnt balanced for 16vs8, but 8vs8. That applies only to balanced builds mind you. you really need to stop arguing against what actually happened. Cg rangers were the balanced meta. If they had such obvious flaws to them they wouldnt have become meta... however... the amount of bloodspikes and the need to stop enemy teams from capping on the 3 altar maps made cg rangers the ideal choice for balanced teams. |
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Jul 14, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53
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#292 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Dec 2006
Profession: W/E
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Quote:
Moving on, yes rangers armour is quite high but if for example your team holding the alter in HA has 2 chocking gass rangers. 2 Teams applying pressure on the holding team basically means even if say your now fighting to cap the alter and blues interupting you, taking down say there ranger was not difficult. It varried, sometimes you may need to drop their monk again before you did it, other times all 3 monks could be up and you could take care of him with resistance of course from the monks but not enough to keep them alive. Hope this has cleared up what i was on about further up. But back to the original argument or shall i say debate, before we lose site of it. You infered Chocking gass rangers x2 in a team in HA either holding or attacking was a problem and a common occurance. Please explain why exactly you hold this view point for me. Aka whats the problem with having teams with 2 chocking gass rangers in HA. Edit: As for the memory loss, i doubt it, well least i still think im pretty sane but i guess anet are giving people grey hair now hence why you came up with that speculation. Thanks for caring about my health though Last edited by Death_From_Above; Jul 14, 2007 at 12:59 AM // 00:59.. |
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Jul 14, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17
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#293 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Quote:
Lord Mendes, like i, said the vast majority of balanced teams had cg rangers. At least one, more commonly 2. Then he made a further distinction, that 2 cg rangers were especially prevalent in balanced teams in HoH. By ''vast majority'' or ''almost all''... in my interpretation of things, we are looking at... perhaps 80-90%+ not 2/5s. 2/5s is not a vast majority but a minority. if it comes down to the fact that you cannot remember cg rangers being so prevalent in tombs... and you wont believe other people when they say they were... there really is no use continuing this line of discussion. And you should just state it that way instead of trying these ridiculous mathematical statistics that have zero basis in reality. if you dont remember cg rangers being so common in tombs... just say so. But dont try to prove that they were uncommon because noone has any proof. |
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Jul 14, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57
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#294 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Quote:
cg rangers were the best alternative because in a straight 1vs1 fight they were also quite effective against your average monk or bloodspike. I know the best monks can still operate under a hail of cg, by casting between arrows. Or by asking their team to shutdown the cg rangers. But considering the state of tombs since the beginning what proportion of teams were this good? Noone ever runs builds to beat the best tombs teams... the majority of tombs teams run builds that can beat the majority of tombs teams who are actually quite average players and find monking versus cg quite hard. iway was so popular because it beat these average skilled balanced teams in seconds. The best teams could beat iway easily, but this didnt stop the iwayers from farming the other teams. Gimmick builds like cg ranger balanced and bloodspike and iway etc, were popular partly due to the fact they wiped the floor with average teams. Your average monk has no idea how to heal while a cg ranger is focused on him. So what happened... almost all balanced teams started to run cg rangers. At the highest levels, the good balanced teams who were hoping to hold HoH needed a way to prevent other teams from capping the altar. They knew very well that they should not expect to be able to stay alive versus 2 organised teams. So their tactic was to stop anyone from capping until the timer reached 0:00. of course, the ideal solution to beating balanced teams with cg rangers in HoH was to wipe the monks... wipe the rangers and then cap. But the success of this depended on many factors: 1) how long it takes you to kill the holding team which in part depends on the fact 2) that you are good enough to wipe their monks and 3) that the 3rd team has some clue and helps you to kill the blue monks the length of time this takes depends on the skill of the blue team monks and the skill of the red and yellow teams offense. depending on how long it takes you to wipe the 3 monk backline, the time you are left with you have to accomplish 3 tasks a) disable/kill blue team interrupters b) disable/kill red team interrupers c) disable/kill red team ghost every 5 seconds. it all depends how long you took to wipe the monks... if you took too long you wouldnt have enough time to achieve the next step. and its one thing to disable or kill blue teams interrupters... specially if their monks are dead. But its entirely a different thing to be able to achieve this AND to disable and kill the red teams interrupters who are obviously going to be interrupting your ghost aswell. but ive just gone and repeated my argument about interrupt wars again. cg rangers began as a niche build... run by only a few teams. I think Brehon was one of the first people to regularly run them in his builds. He used to run frenzy on his cg rangers... very fun to fight against cos they sometimes spammed frenzy with no cancel. as a niche build they pose no problem... niche builds never are a problem for the meta because they do not dominate and other builds are allowed to see light of day. but cg rangers popularity spread like wildfire. Spellbreaker, SoD, ward stability became common altar capping utility which meant that seeking arrows rangers were the only characters capable of interrupting a ghost 24/7. Since tombs had 3 altar maps it was quite sensible to bring these rangers along. When 1 team had a cg ranger, the other teams were at a disadvantage if they didnt have a cg ranger because they couldnt interrupt a ghost for as long as the cg ranger could. And your average team never had the coordination or awareness to disable the ranger. So all balanced teams started to bring them... and so began interrupt wars... the winners of which were those who were able to disable the enemies ranger first. whenever ANY single build becomes meta, its almost always a bad thing. IWAY... Rspike... dual smite... bloodspike... vimway... etc etc... present day heroway... rit spike... all these gimmick builds existed for different reasons... imbalanced skills... imbalanced mechanics... lack of good players... the cg ranger balanced build was one of these builds... it didnt exist out of imbalances but of necessity. all because winning broken tower, courtyard, HoH was about interrupting a NPC with a 5 second skill. thank goodness Anet made king of the hill. so much better, just needs a couple of cosmetic tweaks. Last edited by Lorekeeper; Jul 14, 2007 at 02:01 AM // 02:01.. |
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Jul 14, 2007, 02:04 AM // 02:04
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#295 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jul 2006
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2 cg rangers in 80-90% of balanced teams is absolute bullshit. It was never that high. Besides, probably 50-60% of teams in HA (tops) at those times were balanced... Anyway, enough of that argument. If your only qualm against altar maps is interrupt wars, then there is no reason not to just skill balance seeking arrows because apparently it is the most godly skill in the game and should be elite+only allow one more skill on your bar. Seriously though, an argument over cg rangers really doesn't belong in this thread. They could just balance interrupts a bit, and altars would be fine according to your argument...
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Jul 14, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26
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#296 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Quote:
the suggestion to nerf skills based on their influence on 3 maps in the HA rotation is ridiculous. Seeking arrows rangers see next to no use outside old style altar capping anyway... nerfing them even more, you might aswell remove the skill from the game. There was never a need to nerf the cg ranger, its popularity and subsequent stale nature of tombs highlighted a fault within the mechanics themselves. Mechanics that forced certain types of strategies until all it came down to was a battle over an altar. Since 3 maps were of this type, teams serious about fame farming and holding HoH created builds ideally built for success on these 3 maps. The tombs meta became so focused on this agenda that build diversity suffered and build creativity was next to zero. So Anet tried to introduce new mechanics that encouraged build diversity and creativity. They succeeded in removing seeking arrows interrupt wars from HoH but with the introduction of kill count they failed in encouraging diversity and build creativity totally. so back ontopic... everyone agrees that kill count needs to be replaced. yes that much is clear, but replacing it with old style altar is seriously not the solution. Especially when we already have a much better version of the altar mechanic. If anything, kill count should be replaced by the new king of the hill mechanic. With the tweaks needed to solve its minor problems. |
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Jul 14, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50
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#297 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jul 2006
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I have no problem with the kc maps being replaced by koth, IMO what it comes down to (yes, I know this is WAYYY overly-simplified, but don't worry, I have my OMG NUB DOESN'T UNDERSTAND GAME MECHANICS flame retardant suit on) an altar map is an altar map. I know that koth and old altars are very different, but at least it's a damn altar. It's just I don't see anet spending much/any time on HA... ever again... so I think the simplest thing would be to revert to the old HA...
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Jul 14, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16
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#298 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Dec 2006
Profession: W/E
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True true gimmie, but just to conclude on the whole interupting thing in relation to cg rangers. I do hope you realise i wasnt on about teams with 1 chocking gas ranger but rather 2. You seem to be talking about teams with cg rangers not specifically 2. But anyways enough of that, ill end by saying cg rangers (2 being in a team) was in no ways a problem for HA regarding interupting and such.
At the end of the day, everyones tired of this stuff now. Just revert it back to old alter mechanics and go from there. Quick, effective and everyone wants it and as gimmie said, anet have shown there not very keen on doing much. |
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Jul 14, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02
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#299 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: London, England
Profession: Mo/
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Quote:
i don't get why everyone is QQing about CGs though. blind anyone? interrupt seeking pliz? blackout? heck, i even remember being e-denied so i couldnt interrupt on many occasions. has anyone thought about this? rotation on broken/cortyard? |
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Jul 16, 2007, 08:19 AM // 08:19
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#300 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jan 2006
Profession: Me/
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I just listened to the Balance Podcast its on this thread :: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10177018 :: theres was a lot said that i found interesting ( i mentioned the chess analogy on these forums a lil while ago a few times ^^ lol) and thought that you may like to hear what izzy has to say and others. I dunno if i should feel hopeful about this or fearful... nothing is firsthand mentioned about HA but it sorta sounds like theyre thinking about it...
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