Curse

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jul 01, 2007, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

All of them. Because I don't know how to interrupt seeking arrows. Because I can't put a hex on an interrupter. Because I can't blind an interrupter. because i can't put SB on a hero to stop him being spiked or interrupted by PD. because i dont know how to put guardian or SoD on a ghost. Because I fail at the game and I got my r9 by grinding with iway on the first two maps of the rotation for two years.

I love you. Smartest post I've seen in a long time.

Nebuchadnezzer · Jul 01, 2007, 07:39 AM // 07:39

It's not the builds that I didn't like as much on holding. But the Holding altar concept cant be made into a 1vs1 map really. Whichever team that is holding would be impossible to take down. What i want to see in HA where no luck from a third team is involved. The presence of a third team on ANY map makes a huge luck factor in winning. I want to see all 1vs1 maps and objectives. :/

Mental Leteci · Jul 01, 2007, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

All of them. Because I don't know how to interrupt seeking arrows. Because I can't put a hex on an interrupter. Because I can't blind an interrupter. because i can't put SB on a hero to stop him being spiked or interrupted by PD. because i dont know how to put guardian or SoD on a ghost. Because I fail at the game and I got my r9 by grinding with iway on the first two maps of the rotation for two years.

Ah, I completely forgot about those. I guess we should stick to almighty kill count then and skillful relic runs.

Takida · Jul 01, 2007, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Is there a Reason why anet changed the mechanics?

Mental Leteci · Jul 01, 2007, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Yes. They wanted to fix "the broken altar-holding mechanics". People like Tom complained how easy it is to interrupt the ghost when you have just 3 warriors and a trapper to stop the interrupters. Oh, they also said it will get rid of the spiking builds (what an irony).

ZenRgy · Jul 01, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

3 way kill count maps, ANY 3 way map really is just crap (especially broken tower/courtyard)

It promotes ganking, ever more so if one team knows another or one team has a grudge against another.

Death_From_Above · Jul 01, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Positioning as in "Get out of the AoE" is quite different from "lets go around this way, get behind blue/cap the altar move around etc etc" Altar capping had everyone fighting in the middle, there is BARELY to little positioning, just kiting. As long as your monks are in range of each other and the ghost, and your interrupters are in range I do not see how positioning besides the oblivious is anywhere near important.

Youll notice people in alter capping tend to didnt get there whole team to stand on the middle of the alter or close to it because alot of damage occurs there at times. Also as for the positioning, it may not have had as much as kill count does but yes thats because its about fighting and not running around. It had possitioning, but the correct amount. Its like salt, put it in your food its good in small quanties. Put to much in and it dominates it and makes it bitter. Possitioning is important in alter maps but its not like kill count which is basically not about fighting per say but your movement. If people wanted dance classes and movment classes i think we would go in HA without skill bars.

A question also, why is your possitioning important on kill count. Its so you dont get ganked, this seems intresting then because it basically means you should move around so you can get the opportunity to farm someone. This basically means the minute the farming starts one teams already out of the competition and basically doesnt even get to give a full or proper fight, yes this seems very fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

So Iway had just as good a chance to hold as Balanced in altar capping? The water ele is not the only option for a snare, just the most popular. Some builds have no snares at all and are successful still. It encourages new players to learn from higher ranked players to deal damage they way they do, yes probably. All I have to say is if you do not attack the appropriate team, and play your tactics to the best of your ability you lose any map no matter what. Are you attempting to say here that everything was perfect about altar capping? It wasn't perfect there were less complaints. Halls should be multiple objectives, so multiple builds can shine.

There where less complaints and this wasnt a good thing? Iway had as good as a change to hold as balanced in altar capping depending on what utility both builds brought for it. I dont get your point of new players learning from higher players on how to deal damage the way they do. Please explain this for me. No one said its impossible to win with kill count. Yes if you run a balanced build effectively for example you can win each map. The problem me and many have is it is boaring, it promotes spikes and it retricts you to certain builds. As i said, you cant run heavy hex and heavy pressure now adays if you want to stand remotely a good chance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Just because you personally find Kill count more complex then Altar capping, does not mean it is not simple to understand. Kill people, 3 teams highest amount of points wins...

Like wise to you, just because you find kill count much easier does not mean its as simple to understand than alter maps universaly. For kill count its, 2 or 3 teams - the team that has the alter at the end of the map wins. Simple as that, where as kill count its ghost is 2 points. Alter gives you x bonus. *Then the issue of kill stealing* about damage in last 10 secs ect. Then you have the tie, if everyone has the same amount of points is xxx person wins if xxx. Its much more complex i would say.

Originally Posted by Shmanka
The reason I did not like altar holding as the pure and only objective in halls is because of its ridiculous defensive nature. Example would be when people used double Incomming! Paragons. People would purposely attempt to get a halls skip essentially to "have a chance" at taking out the former "Incomming!" team and hold for the next few hours

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Just because there is a counter for something does not mean it is not broken, this debate continues. You mentioned a counter so I guess Dshot>everything. Don't bring up these ridiculous points into debates. They make this whole thread more mindless then it already is.

You see the problem here. This means then its not the mechanics but rather a skill balance needed am i wrong. So therefore why are you trying to blame the mechanics for needed skill balances?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Mention how many bloodspike teams get to halls consistantly please? Oh yea SoG, and like... no one. Did you play this game Prophecies only?

Mention how many balanced teams and other teams apart from blood spike get to halls consistantly? And as for SoG, refresh my memory please but can someone tell me if they were in HA 24 7 with 8v8 alter capping. Also anyway on a side note, even if they were in halls for a long time it just highlights they were good or rather some skills need balancing. I doubt they would have been impossible to remove by 2 teams with utility to beat them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

I Ha'ed 3 months[/FONT] in the game, I have a good grasp. In general it seems like people are searching for the perfect game again, honestly this won't be. When factions came out I gvg'ed for a long period of time. Like I said HA was ruined when factions came out.

It may not have been as pro when factions came out as to when it was just prophs but it wasnt destroyed as you imply by the introduction of proph. This clearly shows your missing out on the obvious point that kill count is the problem but rather insist it was factions. Yes thats why many people quit which as you said cant be denied with 6v6 and then kill count coming.

Randomway Ftw · Jul 01, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Mention how many balanced teams and other teams apart from blood spike get to halls consistantly? And as for SoG, refresh my memory please but can someone tell me if they were in HA 24 7 with 8v8 alter capping. Also anyway on a side note, even if they were in halls for a long time it just highlights they were good or rather some skills need balancing. I doubt they would have been impossible to remove by 2 teams with utility to beat them.

I don't remember SoG holding very long, they may have but I doubt it because they ran oppressive gaze spike, which had significantly less holding power than the older variants of blood spike (please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not euro, and its possible they held at a different time).

Nurse With Wound · Jul 01, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

All of them. Because I don't know how to interrupt seeking arrows. Because I can't put a hex on an interrupter. Because I can't blind an interrupter. because i can't put SB on a hero to stop him being spiked or interrupted by PD. because i dont know how to put guardian or SoD on a ghost. Because I fail at the game and I got my r9 by grinding with iway on the first two maps of the rotation for two years.

Good post. "omg holding builds" drama is bs. The only "unbeatable" holding build was in 6v6 era when there was broken energizing finale. I don't remember "holding builds" in old HA. Only noobs couldn't kick bloodspike out of hoh.

Kyp Jade · Jul 01, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

It's not really that omg unbeatable holding builds oh noes, its more, you play play this type of build, using this strategy, and this is the way to farm fame.

Killcount, relic run, capture point, AND king of the hill are all three way objectives (cap point being the only stupid one where you only have 33% control over your chances of winning), if people believe 3 way maps are too much luck based, think back to 5 way HoH, oh yea, tell me thats not luck based.

As for 1v1 holding I think i saw someone mentioned, could be mistaken, I HAVE NEVER seen the holding team lose in the 1v1.

Having multiple objectives in HoH keeps the meta from getting to stale, and dont give me that limits build bs of killcount, new heroway meta is a pretty sweet degen build. Hmmm, a degen build is now meta. Multi objective maps force teams to do a few things when they start to concieve of a build, usually resulting in 10 or more skill slots being set aside. Lame builds like rt spike thrive so well, because all of the builds primary needs are in the primary class, giving it an immense amount of space for utility.

And as for ganking, its happened on multiteam maps since the games conception. (anyone remember burial mounds?) The only time ganking is really a problem, is when a team isnt playing to win anymore, its when they are playing to make you lose.

Nebuchadnezzer · Jul 01, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

I never said I wanted to see 1 vs 1 Holding. I said i don't want to see holding BACK because it can't be made into a 1vs1. The fact that HA has always had maps where another can (and do) ruin it for you, makes it a luck based form of pvp. This is bad. You want pvp to be based on skill, right? They changed the 5 way HoH because lots of teams in one area is bad. Well 3 is still to many. Anything over 2 teams is just a stupid idea that needs to die.

Also to the new Heroway meta degen build. I've played it a few times and, unless you get a skip on broken tower is pretty impossible with it. All the kills you make go to other spike and AoE teams because, guess what? you're running DEGEN pressure.

Lorekeeper · Jul 01, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Hmm

this is quite puzzling.

Have you all forgotten what happened in the old 8vs8 days of altar holding?

3 teams... 10min counter or something. Noone fighting or approaching the altar until the last few minutes.

Last few minutes hits... all teams rush to the altar.

Interrupt wars.

3 teams pack enough interrupters to interrupt 2 ghosts. Cg rangers were meta back then because of the bloodspikes and the interrupt wars on altars.

Fortunately for the holding team, they won if noone managed to cap the altar anyway.

Hardly anyone brought pd mesmers because its effectiveness against bloodspikes was not equal to the effectiveness of the cg ranger.

I might be a bit hazy it was SUCH a long time ago, but i hated the old style altar holding JUST as much as i hate kill count right now. I remember the frustration at fighting HoH against 2 cg rangers on each invading team. Try to disable 4 cg rangers with seeking arrows. Good luck to you.

Thats all holding came down to in the end back then... interrupt wars.

And the new nightfall skills dont change things either. We have song of concentration. Which can as easily be put on a x/p as a p/x.

If altar holding maps were decided on who was holding the altar when the timer ended we would get the same mad rush in the last few minutes for the altar. However this time there would be another rush to build up the adrenaline needed for song the fastest thereby allowing the ghost to cap unhindered. Ward against stability or brace yourself would also be required to guarantee cap success.

So everyone would have a paragon or paragon secondary in their team and since 1 paragon would be easily shutdown by a single pd mesmer im willing to bet that teams would bring maybe 2 paragons or 1 primary paragon and a p secondary. P/X with brace yourself and a X/P with song of concentration. They would also need at least 1 pd mes and perhaps an interrupt ranger to shutdown the capping defenses of the opposing teams. So everyone will be trying to shutdown eachothers Songs or Pds... but in my team of 8 characters can i hope at all to bring enough shutdown for 2 teams worth of capping defenses and interrupts? The answer is a resounding NO.

Much the same way that it was impossible to shutdown 4 Cg rangers.

The team that holds will basically be the teams whos song or Pd was not shutdown... but that would only have happened because the other 2 teams only had enough utility to shuteachother down leaving the 3rd team free to cap... and who decides which team is this team who gets to cap... lady luck herself.

lady luck should have little to no influence on who wins HoH.

And if any team worth their salt wanted to win HoH with the old style capping system they would be crazy not to bring these skills since a pd mesmer can keep a ghost interrupt for upwards of 2min.

How boring would this be?

HoH would be dominated by 2 types of teams.

Teams who cap early, who decide that they rather try to hold against 2 teams and keep their ghost alive rather than make a mad rush to cap at the closing stages of the match.

These teams would be designed specifically to hold out against 2 other teams. What many call holding builds.

And you MUST realise that if relic capping and capture point did not exist in the HOH rotation... holding builds would become FAR more defensive.

They wont need to include speedboosts or any of the utility needed for these maps. All they need to do is include enough defense to survive 2min or so.

Imagine rit spike teams without the rit/D

they would probably take instead... more rit/mo or more rit/mes

with 2+ copies of Pd... and 3+ prots and healers and 3+ hard rezzes.

Not to mention the fact that i think ALL of them can heal with mend body and soul and spirit light.

Even if the invading 2 teams were good enough to wipe the rit spike... not only would they have to wipe out the healing backline they would have had to shutdown their multiple copies of Pd which if left free could prevent any ghosts from capping the altar even if they failed to keep their own ghost alive. And lets say it took 1.30 to wipe the rit spike.

that leaves 30 seconds to cap the altar. Lets not forget that not only do you have to shutdown the Pd on the rit spike but you have the 3rd team interrupting your ghost too.... AND they probably have Song somewhere which you gotta shutdown.

The other type of team would pack enough interrupts to prevent 2 opposing teams from capping the altar. Imagine a team with a cg ranger and a Pd mesmer. Lets not even entertain the thought of a spellbreaker monk added into the mix. I forgot to mention that earlier. Thats just the holding team... a 2nd or 3rd team could pack the same amount of capping utility... how do you shut it all down... how can you be sure that it is all shutdown?

Need i say more???????

I really think its better that we take a hard look at what we have got already and try to improve it rather than demand another complete overhaul. going back to the old style mechanics would just be swapping current problems for the old problems.

The new point system altar holding is far better. i have already posted previously some potential mechanic changes to make it better than it is currently.

a multi map HoH is necessary to place a variety of demands on builds to include a variety of utilities rather than allowing builds to be focused on 1 task.

Thats wat the multi map HoH was meant to do. Unfortunately the fact that HoH is still dominated by spikes is because although we do theoretically have the game mechanics to encourage build diversity its actually the HoH map itself that is the last stumbling block in the works.

IMO all that is needed is a redesign of the HoH map to suit each different win condition.

King of the hill requires the current map
Capture point requires a map with multiple routes to each point rather than all routes meeting at a crossroads.
Relic runs requires for teams to actually have an incentive to run relics faster than anyone else.

Anyway those are my thoughts... just quickly typed them all down so might need to edit them if i read through them later tonite.

Randomway Ftw · Jul 01, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Hmm

this is quite puzzling.

Have you all forgotten what happened in the old 8vs8 days of altar holding?

3 teams... 10min counter or something. Noone fighting or approaching the altar until the last few minutes.

Last few minutes hits... all teams rush to the altar.

Bid deal, better than the match ending with four minutes left.

Quote:

Interrupt wars.

3 teams pack enough interrupters to interrupt 2 ghosts. Cg rangers were meta back then because of the bloodspikes and the interrupt wars on altars.

Fortunately for the holding team, they won if noone managed to cap the altar anyway.

Hardly anyone brought pd mesmers because its effectiveness against bloodspikes was not equal to the effectiveness of the cg ranger.

I might be a bit hazy it was SUCH a long time ago, but i hated the old style altar holding JUST as much as i hate kill count right now. I remember the frustration at fighting HoH against 2 cg rangers on each invading team. Try to disable 4 cg rangers with seeking arrows. Good luck to you.

At most you would need to disable 2 for 5 seconds, not that difficult.

Quote:

The team that holds will basically be the teams whos song or Pd was not shutdown... but that would only have happened because the other 2 teams only had enough utility to shuteachother down leaving the 3rd team free to cap... and who decides which team is this team who gets to cap... lady luck herself.

And that is why dong of concentration is a stupid skill.

Quote:

And if any team worth their salt wanted to win HoH with the old style capping system they would be crazy not to bring these skills since a pd mesmer can keep a ghost interrupt for upwards of 2min.

Savage shot by itself can also keep a ghost interrupted for 2 minutes of you do nothing about it.

Quote:

Imagine rit spike teams without the rit/D

they would probably take instead... more rit/mo or more rit/mes

with 2+ copies of Pd... and 3+ prots and healers and 3+ hard rezzes.

Not to mention the fact that i think ALL of them can heal with mend body and soul and spirit light.

We've already seen a build like that without pd, but has unlimited energy, its not that scary and collapses under pressure. PD is pretty easy to deal with also.

Takida · Jul 01, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Just nerf cg then if it will be 2 overpowered, Rather have a skill nerf then keep on with this bullshit..
Nerf skills, dont change the mechanics

Seriously it was nothing wrong with the old mechanics

Lorekeeper · Jul 01, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

i was looking forward to quite well thought out reply to my post.

instead i get something quite laughable.

tell me... why do you think at most you would only need to shutdown 2 cg rangers. If we went back to the old style holding there were often times that teams had 2 cg rangers each. This point is not up for discussion... it happened and could happen again. Whether you like it or not.

You are aware that the new cap time is 2 seconds right? Which is MUCH better than the old 5 second cap timer of yesteryear. Pd is currently the only solo interrupter who can keep a ghostly from capping. It would take 2 cg rangers to do the same.

That not even factoring in Spellbreaker...
blinds
gales
ward stability
brace yourself
song concentration
SoD
leech signet
cry of frustration
humility
diversion

it would be IMPOSSIBLE to shutdown 2 teams worth of capping utilities.

How can you equate the 6vs6 paragon holding build to the current rit spike? You cannot in any way compare the builds run after nightfall release with the builds run post skill balance and current 8vs8.

Pd is not easy to shutdown. 1 is... sure... diversion... kd... humility... kill

2? hmm well ok you could divide your shutdown among the 2 rit/mes

but are you forgetting that other team in HoH? Yes you know the other team who could well be another rit spike team with its own 2 pd mesmers! Or it could well be a team with 2 cg rangers... or a cg ranger and a pd mes.

Can a balanced team bring enough capping utility to shutdown 2 opposing teams with their own capping utility.

Im sorry but you must be playing a different game to me if you think that the old style altar capping would be fun.

Please if you intend to argue and counter my points do so thoroughly with well thought out points. Your current attempts to do so are in no way adequate refutations of the points i have made.

Or how about you argue how the old style altar capping would be fun.

Its quite some challenge... since countless people left GW HA because of interrupt wars LONG before the release of Nightfall.

Some people have little to no memory of the past...

the remnants of old Tombers playing in HA today are but a fraction of the Tombers who endured the old altar capping Tombs.

All thats left are the people who entered HA post factions and post nightfall ... unfortunately they arent aware of what came before.

i think i have accurately described what occured before in my previous post.

Lorekeeper · Jul 01, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takida

Just nerf cg then if it will be 2 overpowered, Rather have a skill nerf then keep on with this bullshit..
Nerf skills, dont change the mechanics

Seriously it was nothing wrong with the old mechanics

Nerfing CG is not the solution to the problems of old style altar capping. The entire mechanic itself is the problem. It encourages a mad dash in the last 2minutes to cap the altar, and more often than not the team who wins... wins because of a lucky cap. However if you have 3 equally experienced and coordinated teams... chances are noone will succeed in capping the altar and blue will be given an easy HoH victory.

a much larger and more significant portion of the TOMBS/HA community left because of the old style altar capping making HoH interrupt wars than the ones leaving because of the current problems.

Bring back altar capping and you might aswell wipe out all classes in HA and rename to Ritualists Ascent.

zergway would be gone
hex-heroway gone
paraspike gone
dual para balanced gone
any type of balanced would be gone
searing flames gone

none of the above would be able to hold.

only teams capable of holding and avoiding an interrupt war by staying alive would be a rit or necro spike team. But out of these 2 builds the rit spike is far more potent defensively and offensively. Largely due to the nerf to soul reaping.

the only other possible way of holding HoH would be to pack like 3-4 interrupters so when the two opposing teams attempt to cap the altar when your ghost is dead you can just stop them from capping successful.

All you would need to do would be to interrupt the song on both teams... then interrupt the ghost.

If you face 2 balanced teams... you need 1 interrupt on each team for the song. And then you need those 2 interrupts to coordinate interrupts on the ghost.

You need a way to prevent your interrupters from being disabled...

so if you have pd mesmers you need to prevent them from being Kded or diversioned or humilitied. So you need brace yourself... ward stability... and preveil... you need someone to make sure noone casts humility.. that requires a KD or an interrupt also.

if you have rangers as your interrupters you just need to make sure they can activate their seeking arrows which means they need to be immune to interrupts and KDs... which means they probably need spellbreaker and brace yourself on them while they use seeking arrows.

you gonna bring spellbreaker for both your rangers? ward stability could protect both from kds.

bah just thinking about it is enough to make me sick of the idea of old style altar capping. I was sick of it back then and im absolutely sure it will be horrible again.

Randomway Ftw · Jul 01, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

tell me... why do you think at most you would only need to shutdown 2 cg rangers. If we went back to the old style holding there were often times that teams had 2 cg rangers each. This point is not up for discussion... it happened and could happen again. Whether you like it or not.

Let's assume a match involving 3 teams with 2 seeking arrows rangers, you are in halls, the holding teams ghost is dead. If you managed to kill the ghost, blue should be under a lot of pressure, and you may be able to kill there rangers so you only have to deal with the other team attempting to cap. All they have to do is fail to interrupt the ghost once and you win. Seriously if this is the issue, why not just nerf seeking since its the nly thing that requires an active effort to deal with, it isn't like its used for anything else anyways.

Quote:

You are aware that the new cap time is 2 seconds right? Which is MUCH better than the old 5 second cap timer of yesteryear. Pd is currently the only solo interrupter who can keep a ghostly from capping. It would take 2 cg rangers to do the same.

2 second claim resource is meant to allow idiots to cap by doing nothing.

Quote:

That not even factoring in Spellbreaker...
blinds
gales
ward stability
brace yourself
song concentration
SoD
leech signet
cry of frustration
humility
diversion

it would be IMPOSSIBLE to shutdown 2 teams worth of capping utilities.

You don't need to shutdown 2 teams, unless both decide they are going to gank you, which is a problem with three way maps.

Quote:

How can you equate the 6vs6 paragon holding build to the current rit spike? You cannot in any way compare the builds run after nightfall release with the builds run post skill balance and current 8vs8.

I meant bloodspike.

Quote:

Pd is not easy to shutdown. 1 is... sure... diversion... kd... humility... kill

don't forget sb, blackout, almost all teams have at least some small form of shutdown. If your build consists of 7 necros and one ritualist, you need to get a real build and stop complaining about the power of PD.

Quote:

but are you forgetting that other team in HoH? Yes you know the other team who could well be another rit spike team with its own 2 pd mesmers! Or it could well be a team with 2 cg rangers... or a cg ranger and a pd mes.

Can a balanced team bring enough capping utility to shutdown 2 opposing teams with their own capping utility.

You realize that you could just load your ghost up with enchants to stop almost every type of interupter besides cg, right?

It's possible because it only needs to be sustained for the duration of claim resource.

Guardian + Spellbreaker + Stability > 95% of ways of interrupting the ghostly, we also have song of concentration now.

Kyp Jade · Jul 01, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

don't forget sb, blackout, almost all teams have at least some small form of shutdown. If your build consists of 7 necros and one ritualist, you need to get a real build and stop complaining about the power of PD.

I dont recall ugly ever playing anything but balanced builds.

Also, when your talking about loading the ghost up with enchants to prevent it from being interupted. Hey guess what, the other teams are too. Lorekeepers ENTIRE post is about preventing thier ghost from capping so you can hold.

And lorekeeper is right in any case, the king of the hill system is far superior than old school altar cap, since all blue had to do to win, was keep 2 NPC's shutdown for 2 minutes, and, if they were lucky and at least one of the other teams was "Balanced" they only had to shut down one ghost.

But you DO want a variety of objectives in the HoH map, for the sake of argument, let them be whatever you want them to be, but if you only have ONE map objective, then EVERYONE is going to run the exact same build, or build concept. (By everyone I mean anyone interested in winning HoH and holding it, no one really cares about lamers in HA, they like fame, dun care much bout chest drops)

---
(funny how ths killcount poll got off topic to altar holding, but it is related lol)
---

Lorekeeper · Jul 01, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

Let's assume a match involving 3 teams with 2 seeking arrows rangers, you are in halls, the holding teams ghost is dead. If you managed to kill the ghost, blue should be under a lot of pressure, and you may be able to kill there rangers so you only have to deal with the other team attempting to cap. All they have to do is fail to interrupt the ghost once and you win. Seriously if this is the issue, why not just nerf seeking since its the nly thing that requires an active effort to deal with, it isn't like its used for anything else anyways.

2 second claim resource is meant to allow idiots to cap by doing nothing.

You don't need to shutdown 2 teams, unless both decide they are going to gank you, which is a problem with three way maps.

I meant bloodspike.

don't forget sb, blackout, almost all teams have at least some small form of shutdown. If your build consists of 7 necros and one ritualist, you need to get a real build and stop complaining about the power of PD.

You realize that you could just load your ghost up with enchants to stop almost every type of interupter besides cg, right?

It's possible because it only needs to be sustained for the duration of claim resource.

Guardian + Spellbreaker + Stability > 95% of ways of interrupting the ghostly, we also have song of concentration now.

hmm nerf to seeking arrows

then they would bring guided weapon? Would you nerf all skills that provide unblockable attacks? Anthem of guidance too?

Nerf all physical methods of interrupting the ghost and what happens then?

Spellbreaker and Anti-KD skills become necessity to allow capping. Song is not the golden ticket to capping since its a 2 sec cast and requires quite some adrenaline to use... and its pretty obvious who is going to use song so any team worth their salt will camp the paragon and stop him from using it.

If the only thing stopping you from interrupt a ghost is spellbreaker you can bring the following things

gale/blackout lock on sb monk
humility on sb monk
chilblains on altar
leechsignet cap resource
signet of disruption cap resource
shock cap resource as long as stability is interrupted
assault enchantments - difficult but anything is possible
order of apostasy - could be very useful
signet of disenchant - goes thru sb
well of profane - the be all and end all of enchant removal

i would certainly bring profane into HoH. You better do the same if you wanna compete with me on the altar.

in fact now i remember... well of profane was also a very popular skill in the old altar capping days because it singlehandedly negated all the enchant protection that could possibly protect a ghost from spell interrupts. It used to be mad scramble to be the first team to cast the profane up... whoever cast it first had the highest chance of capping.

So basically if seeking arrows and all physical means of interrupting a ghost were nerfed... capping altars would still remain horrible.

i can catch a 1 second cast easy with an interrupt wats to stop me from camping your SB monk and interrupting him when he uses SB?

Even if he has 4040 set... ill just gale/blackout lock him.

do you seriously want a game mode that is decided on the fact that you brought a few skills like spellbreaker and ward stability and SoD?

there are 8 skill bars in a team with 64 skills in total.

Surely a game mode which required 75% of these 64 skills to be used well would be the best HoH map and would be the best way to determine the 'worthy' team to gain the favour of the gods.

Not a map where less than a handful of skills were needed to win.

cant you see the flaw of what you are arguing for? you honestly want the whole HA rotation to be decided by 5 seconds of skills use?

come on!

Randomway Ftw · Jul 01, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

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Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

I dont recall ugly ever playing anything but balanced builds.

I saw them run eurospike before.

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Also, when your talking about loading the ghost up with enchants to prevent it from being interupted. Hey guess what, the other teams are too. Lorekeepers ENTIRE post is about preventing thier ghost from capping so you can hold.

Lorekeeper needs to learn that skills aren't everything, you need to play better than the other teams.

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And lorekeeper is right in any case, the king of the hill system is far superior than old school altar cap, since all blue had to do to win, was keep 2 NPC's shutdown for 2 minutes, and, if they were lucky and at least one of the other teams was "Balanced" they only had to shut down one ghost.

New king of the hill blows. Quit bitching and outplay the other teams. You don't deserve to win just because you're in halls.

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let them be whatever you want them to be, but if you only have ONE map objective, then EVERYONE is going to run the exact same build, or build concept.

Its been proven by actual events that that's bs, their were a large variety of builds in old HoH.