Curse

Shmanka · Jun 29, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bread Fan

Shmanka I suggest you get your chin off of Andrew's balls. You follow the devs around on these forums and always make sure that you have something to say in their threads even though you lack knowledge. People like you (PvE players) have ruined PvP enough by posting your ideas/thoughts in threads which don't even pertain to you. Problem is Anet is foolish enough to take the easy way out and please the PvE community while ignoring the PvP backbone.

I'm Rank 9(On Primary) 9(Now officially on secondary), top 100 gvg experience and 3 mill balth... I have had a fair share of pvp experience and respect. It's just people like you who don't see things both ways (The Ignorant Player), and cannot understand how somethings should be strongly devoted to specific styles of play depending on the situation. I have completely defended kill count with my opinion, want to debate how I am wrong? Stop the personal attacks and get real.

It's time you make that new account for the forums

Death_From_Above · Jun 29, 2007, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

I'm Rank 9(On Primary) 9(Now officially on secondary), top 100 gvg experience and 3 mill balth... I have had a fair share of pvp experience and respect. It's just people like you who don't see things both ways (The Ignorant Player), and cannot understand how somethings should be strongly devoted to specific styles of play depending on the situation. I have completely defended kill count with my opinion, want to debate how I am wrong? Stop the personal attacks and get real.

It's time you make that new account for the forums

To be honest, i dont care how much experiance you have or claime to have. It doesnt mean everything you say is valid. I could say im Tony Blair and because of that i say the universe does not exsist and because of my status its absolutly correct and i can in no ways be wrong.

People like bread fan are not ignorant. Rather they have looked at both side and obviously can clearly see there is only one solution. You say oh well youv defended it with your heart. So explain to me then why 70 percent of the players want kill count removed for good and remember theres like 4 options here. This tells me that kill counts undefendable. Even those who dont want alter maps dont want kill count.

If you can defend kill count so much please explain here fully for me why anet should keep kill count *which has obviously lead to the downfall of halls.* Now if your points are valid then they cannot be disproved correct. Just like if a scientific therom is proven anything that disproves it shows that therom to be incorrect. So bring your argument then, an lets see if we can find any faults with it so this whole idea of kill count being much more productive for tombs can be settled.

Bread Fan · Jun 29, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

I'm Rank 9(On Primary) 9(Now officially on secondary), top 100 gvg experience and 3 mill balth... I have had a fair share of pvp experience and respect. It's just people like you who don't see things both ways (The Ignorant Player), and cannot understand how somethings should be strongly devoted to specific styles of play depending on the situation. I have completely defended kill count with my opinion, want to debate how I am wrong? Stop the personal attacks and get real.

It's time you make that new account for the forums

I have played against you when you were in CC and it was a complete joke. I felt bad for Red and could only imagine how he was raging on vent.

Rank 9 meant something a little over a year ago. As well as top 100. Guild Wars competition is non existent now and enjoy stroking your own ego while playing against scrubs since anyone decent left long ago.

person a · Jun 29, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

for the record, i am fully against kill count. this is simply for the sake of the argument...

the problem is not with the kill count game mode, but with kill count on a 1v1v1 map. because it is 1v1v1 and (on broken tower) early in the game, you will usually still face at least one nub team. the other teams will surely farm this team, and it leads to whoever can kill the nub team faster wins. this promotes gimmick spike and aoe builds just for this, which noone wants. even if there is no nub team, noone wants to be the first to engage for fear of getting sandwhiched. this makes for alot of running untill a last minute gank, which is not fun. and, as kyp jade said, one mistake can kill you.

if you take out the 1v1v1 aspect of kill count you get a fun game mode that acctually helps ha by making holding builds less lethal. it is also not as easy for spikes to farm in 1v1, and a good balnced team should be able to beat them without having to worry about a 3rd team, so the gimmick build problem mostly goes away.

a 1v1 kill count game itself is acctually fun and intense, getting more and more intense as the timer trickles closer to zero. it gives people a slightly diffrent goal then your standard deathmatch, and slightly diffrent tactics that come with it. yet it still stays realitivly close to the standard 8v8 matches that people find so much fun.

another thing, having a 1v1 kill count would not hurt things like e-denial hexes etc that don't kill quickly. the problem with these things in a 1v1v1 kill count is that they Indirectly kill someone, meaning they cause pressure which allows your damgage to kill people. however, in a 1v1v1 killcount you can cause the pressure but other people can apply the damage, giving them the kill even if you did most of the work. in a 1v1 kill count this does not matter, becuase there can be no kill stealing.

to sum up my arguments kill count is not the problem, the problem is the maps and placement where a-net utilizes it. having a 1v1v1 kill count map does not work, and having it early on makes it even worse. but an actual 1v1 kill count map is usually a fun map which acctually helps the ha enviorment.

now someone prove me wrong...

Dinkytowner · Jun 29, 2007, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Altar holding was dumb and stale. More objectives is a GOOD thing for hero's ascent. Kill count isn't the best way to deal with the situation for reasons that have been stated many times on this thread. But, it does provide a different objective that makes things more fun. OLD SCHOOL ALTAR HOLDING IS NOT THE ANSWER. Death, Bread, and Gimmie, you are all beating a dead horse. You have been arguing the same crappy points for six months. Two of you can't seem to post about this without being a dick and ruining your credibility, and one of you can't seem to make a coherent point at all. Devs are actually reading this thread, can you please propopse a solution that doesn't involve old altar holding and a "all that is left is scrubs, who cares" attitude.

I feel like I would rather have kill count stay, with a couple tweaks, on one of the current maps. It provides a different playstyle and a barrier to a stale metagame. I feel like new altar mechanics should be introduced on a map before HOH. People need to play this at least once in the rotation to be able to handle it on a consistant basis in Halls. I would also support a new map with an AB style capping objective to keep continuity between the HOH objectives and the maps leading up to it. I don't nessescarily like AB style capping, but it provides variety.

Stale meta, stale maps = bad
Variety = good

Randomway Ftw · Jun 29, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinkytowner

Altar holding was dumb and stale. More objectives is a GOOD thing for hero's ascent. Kill count isn't the best way to deal with the situation for reasons that have been stated many times on this thread. But, it does provide a different objective that makes things more fun. OLD SCHOOL ALTAR HOLDING IS NOT THE ANSWER. Death, Bread, and Gimmie, you are all beating a dead horse. You have been arguing the same crappy points for six months. Two of you can't seem to post about this without being a dick and ruining your credibility, and one of you can't seem to make a coherent point at all. Devs are actually reading this thread, can you please propopse a solution that doesn't involve old altar holding and a "all that is left is scrubs, who cares" attitude.

Just because you think it was dumb and stale doesn't make it so. HA had a unique play style at one point, but now it is a collection of mini game like objectives from other game modes.

Don't try to deny the fact that many good players quit after these changes.

Quote:

I feel like I would rather have kill count stay, with a couple tweaks, on one of the current maps. It provides a different playstyle and a barrier to a stale metagame. I feel like new altar mechanics should be introduced on a map before HOH. People need to play this at least once in the rotation to be able to handle it on a consistant basis in Halls. I would also support a new map with an AB style capping objective to keep continuity between the HOH objectives and the maps leading up to it. I don't nessescarily like AB style capping, but it provides variety.

Stale meta, stale maps = bad
Variety = good

There could be 1000 objectives and they would still suck, variety does not necessarily make something good. A game like counterstrike remains mostly the same, and people still play it, having the objective of something stay the same does not make it stale.

Death_From_Above · Jun 30, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinkytowner

Altar holding was dumb and stale. More objectives is a GOOD thing for hero's ascent. Kill count isn't the best way to deal with the situation for reasons that have been stated many times on this thread. But, it does provide a different objective that makes things more fun.

If alter holding was so dumb and stale why did many people enjoy it and actually play it. If i recall, no one was asking for mechanic changes, if alters where such a problem i believe a large call for the mechanics to be changed would have been cried for. Another thing, if alter capping was so stale why did many people who HAed tend to be long term and not short term. The maps *mechanics* are not primarily what makes the actual macth fun, its invoking skills and tatics and using the build you have to its full potential and alter maps allowed this. It didnt focus to much on the map but rather the skill implimented on this map.

If alter holding was stale and thats why we need a change, why is it called of duty for example, they have had the same maps for like ever yet people flock in in there bunches still to play it even though its been out for many years. Age of mythology similar. The maps only partially make the macth fun, its more down to the point of who your opponant is, and how you have to conduct yourself and the thrill of it which makes the map fun.

As for kill count and it producing different objectives that make it more fun. Thats like saying, my leg got cut off during world war 2. But oh what the heck its good i guess because it means more variety to life as i will now have to conduct myself differently. The negativity which kill count brings outways the possitive things it brings by far far far far far (and another 2billion miles) just to express how large this contrast is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinkytowner

OLD SCHOOL ALTAR HOLDING IS NOT THE ANSWER. Death, Bread, and Gimmie, you are all beating a dead horse. You have been arguing the same crappy points for six months. Two of you can't seem to post about this without being a dick and ruining your credibility, and one of you can't seem to make a coherent point at all. Devs are actually reading this thread, can you please propopse a solution that doesn't involve old altar holding and a "all that is left is scrubs, who cares" attitude.

To what section or our points where rubbish may i ask? Well i dont seem to get you here, your saying propse a solution that does not involve alter holding. Oh lets see, lets have kill count for another 6 months until you find a better alternative. If you want to change anything / improve. Put it back to alter holding first. Then when you have found something that can potentially work have a week test or weekend test to see if it actually does work and is good for HA and fun like alter holding was.

Moving on, i dont get you i really dont. Some people cant see to make up there minds here. I hear loads of crys going on about oh look just be pactient cant u see anet are working on GW EN and GW2 they have no time for pvp. So yet when were like ok then just make it alter capping being this would be quick and easy and it worked. We hear more crys? Galie has posts that HA isnt at the top of anets list because they have been working on it for a while before. Before you start bashing at us look at the whole picture, the question that needs to be asked before anything concerning your propse new changes can be done is how much time is anet going to spend on HA or can they spend on HA. As i said before, it would seem quite logical to just stop the flaffing around and put Halls back to 8v8 with alter maps. Infact people havent played this format for so long, and we havent tried it out with nitefall yet that im sure it will become a whole new playing experiance again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinkytowner

I feel like I would rather have kill count stay, with a couple tweaks, on one of the current maps. It provides a different playstyle and a barrier to a stale metagame.

Stale metagame? If you didnt notice, the learning curve in HA was almost you can say never ending if some people would agree. You always had a changing meta with alter capping and 8v8. We had b spike we had iway we had heavy hex we had ranger spike we had smiting we had balanced, we had half heavyhex/ balance, we had energy denial, spirit spamming builds like the NR TR ect the list goes on and on. In order to counter a certain meta you have to learn. This to me cannot therefore be stale especially when your metas ever changing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinkytowner

I don't nessescarily like AB style capping, but it provides variety.

Stale meta, stale maps = bad
Variety = good

Variety=good if the varietys are good and work. Other wise its like saying, ok i have a pack of chips here with me. Now, chips are carbohydrates and i want to get the maximum variety of the different food groups so im not deficient in one. Ok so lets add some tomato source. Some mustard, some cheese, some beacon, some salt, some vinager, some liver, some garlic.

Youll find in the end all though you now have a variety it tastes bad. Get my point now? Variety works well if the pieces of variety work well. In this case kill count does not.

person a · Jun 30, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinkytowner

I feel like I would rather have kill count stay, with a couple tweaks, on one of the current maps. It provides a different playstyle and a barrier to a stale metagame. I feel like new altar mechanics should be introduced on a map before HOH. People need to play this at least once in the rotation to be able to handle it on a consistant basis in Halls. I would also support a new map with an AB style capping objective to keep continuity between the HOH objectives and the maps leading up to it. I don't nessescarily like AB style capping, but it provides variety.

Stale meta, stale maps = bad
Variety = good

if you don't like ab style play then why would you vouch for putting it into ha?
variety = good is only true when the vareity makes playing the game better, not worse. if a-net could get one match type and truely perfect it in ha, so it was fair anad balnced and everyone loved it, woulden't it be better then the sevaral match types we have in ha now? a-net needs to fix its current modes that are broken now, before it tries to add new ones, esspically something like ab capping. i personnally think we have plenty of variety in ha atm, but not all of it is done well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinkytowner

I feel like I would rather have kill count stay, with a couple tweaks, on one of the current maps. It provides a different playstyle and a barrier to a stale metagame.

i agree with some of this statement. i don't think the metagame can really be stale because people will always start playing new things, much like Death from above said. i do however, think kill count could be a viable game mode given an approiate 1v1 map. 1v1v1 just ruins it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

If alter holding was so dumb and stale why did many people enjoy it and actually play it. If i recall, no one was asking for mechanic changes, if alters where such a problem i believe a large call for the mechanics to be changed would have been cried for. Another thing, if alter capping was so stale why did many people who HAed tend to be long term and not short term. The maps *mechanics* are not primarily what makes the actual macth fun, its invoking skills and tatics and using the build you have to its full potential and alter maps allowed this. It didnt focus to much on the map but rather the skill implimented on this map.

back when alter holding was around when people complained about ha they were complaing about skill imbalances, and cheap builds, not the map and the mechanics. and if players don't complain it...don't change it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinkytowner

Kill count isn't the best way to deal with the situation for reasons that have been stated many times on this thread. But, it does provide a different objective that makes things more fun.

do you enjoy playing on broken tower? honestly?

Shmanka · Jun 30, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

To be honest, i dont care how much experiance you have or claime to have. It doesnt mean everything you say is valid. I could say im Tony Blair and because of that i say the universe does not exsist and because of my status its absolutly correct and i can in no ways be wrong.

People like bread fan are not ignorant. Rather they have looked at both side and obviously can clearly see there is only one solution. You say oh well youv defended it with your heart. So explain to me then why 70 percent of the players want kill count removed for good and remember theres like 4 options here. This tells me that kill counts undefendable. Even those who dont want alter maps dont want kill count.

If you can defend kill count so much please explain here fully for me why anet should keep kill count *which has obviously lead to the downfall of halls.* Now if your points are valid then they cannot be disproved correct. Just like if a scientific therom is proven anything that disproves it shows that therom to be incorrect. So bring your argument then, an lets see if we can find any faults with it so this whole idea of kill count being much more productive for tombs can be settled.

I once never said I am completely correct, infact I have asked for a greater explanation on some issues.

Why I prefer killcount and like it? It is something more tactical that encourages good positioning with a time restraint. Did you ever imagine ever using that empty 90% of those maps before?

I also prefer killcount because it makes players (new or old) find new ways of dealing damage. Now this advantage goes to spike builds easily yet its not always the case that they are the winner. Snares are used more in this map more then anything else, Deep Freeze is finally an ace card in this environment.

Killcount is also, as stressful as it is very simple to understand while being a "You can't hide/turtle" Map which every other map could possibly be.

The reason I did not like altar holding as the pure and only objective in halls is because of its ridiculous defensive nature. Example would be when people used double Incomming! Paragons. People would purposely attempt to get a halls skip essentially to "have a chance" at taking out the former "Incomming!" team and hold for the next few hours.

Infact matches were eventually decided on who rolls highest in rounds beforehand because every build did not care about any offence whatsoever- Kill count changed this.

With the new HA environment, and multiple objectives in halls more balanced teams are holding (which I believe should be happening) and you must be ready for split tactics, defending, and relic running for any round. Some builds are absolutely impossible to stop, and some need huge tactical effort to succeed.

None of this is wrong, it's my opinion. I also agree that defending halls defensively took skill. Having twice the amount of people wail on you for X minutes doesn't seem easy. I also believe the older format was boring. And yes your right alot more people enjoyed it back in the day, and people left for WoW/other games so alot of those people aren't around.. it happens go figure.

Btw IMO Factions led to the downfall of HoH, your a little late on that one.

Randomway Ftw · Jun 30, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

I once never said I am completely correct, infact I have asked for a greater explanation on some issues.

Why I prefer killcount and like it? It is something more tactical that encourages good positioning with a time restraint. Did you ever imagine ever using that empty 90% of those maps before?

Quote:

I also prefer killcount because it makes players (new or old) find new ways of dealing damage. Now this advantage goes to spike builds easily yet its not always the case that they are the winner. Snares are used more in this map more then anything else, Deep Freeze is finally an ace card in this environment.

There is no question that kill count encourages spike builds, try again. Snares were also used in the past, even in gimmicks (iway mes). The usefulness does not make kill count good.

Quote:

Killcount is also, as stressful as it is very simple to understand while being a "You can't hide/turtle" Map which every other map could possibly be.

In other words if teams are dead set on ganking you they will gank you and make you lose.

Quote:

The reason I did not like altar holding as the pure and only objective in halls is because of its ridiculous defensive nature. Example would be when people used double Incomming! Paragons. People would purposely attempt to get a halls skip essentially to "have a chance" at taking out the former "Incomming!" team and hold for the next few hours.

Who's fault is it that incoming is an overpowered skill in all game modes? It wasn't incoming that made those builds powerful it was energizing finale (incoming contributed). Imbalanced skills slipping through to nightfall release is hardly a good enough reason to nuke halls with objectives changes.

Quote:

Infact matches were eventually decided on who rolls highest in rounds beforehand because every build did not care about any offence whatsoever- Kill count changed this.

That only happened because of overpowered nightfall skills, and can still happen in a non-timed match.

Quote:

With the new HA environment, and multiple objectives in halls more balanced teams are holding (which I believe should be happening) and you must be ready for split tactics, defending, and relic running for any round. Some builds are absolutely impossible to stop, and some need huge tactical effort to succeed.

In old 8v8 balanced teams held as well (more than it does now).

Quote:

None of this is wrong, it's my opinion. I also agree that defending halls defensively took skill. Having twice the amount of people wail on you for X minutes doesn't seem easy. I also believe the older format was boring. And yes your right alot more people enjoyed it back in the day, and people left for WoW/other games so alot of those people aren't around.. it happens go figure.

Many of these people did not quit slowly over time, they raged when Anet did stupid things like 6v6 and halls objectives changes.

Shmanka · Jun 30, 2007, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

There is no question that kill count encourages spike builds, try again. Snares were also used in the past, even in gimmicks (iway mes). The usefulness does not make kill count good.

Your correct but more now then ever, and more noticably.

Quote:

In other words if teams are dead set on ganking you they will gank you and make you lose.

In my opinion this is a problem with people, and HA alliances, sometimes you have it rough? Infact I do remember one match where we had 2 teams dead set on ganking us yet we won. It was balanced and we positioned ourselves in a corner, Foes+AoE+Deep Freeze won it for us, unlikely occurance definitely. Although I do feel 3 ways are more problematic then 4 way for this reason.

Quote:

Who's fault is it that incoming is an overpowered skill in all game modes? It wasn't incoming that made those builds powerful it was energizing finale (incoming contributed). Imbalanced skills slipping through to nightfall release is hardly a good enough reason to nuke halls with objectives changes.

Imbalanced skills definitely should not affect environtment changes in halls, although every build packing Spellbreaker/Incomming/Whatever defensive skill that is created to not let your Ghostly drop can get retarded as more skills come into play. ANet didn't think EVERYTHING through, and I am sure they understood the staleness of their hopeful 6v6(Which I did not mind for the record) and made attempts to shake up the game.

Quote:

Many of these people did not quit slowly over time, they raged when Anet did stupid things like 6v6 and halls objectives changes.

You didn't add all the glorious PvE things that I am a nub for! Soul Reaping, Farming, Soloing, Gold/Green drops

Bill Ravenwood · Jun 30, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

I hate kill count! it bites so much lol

Nebuchadnezzer · Jun 30, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25

I like the idea of kill count. It offers some variety in the HA maps, which is good. But personally I think all 1vs1vs1 maps need to be changed to 1vs1 if you ever want HA to be all about skill. Even in HoH some random team can get a skip, decide they dont want to win and just totally ruin it for one team. Any map where theres more the 2 teams has the problem that one of the other teams is just a bunch of jackasses that don't like you for no reason. There isnt anything you can do but /resign because its 16 vs 8, and with these current map objectives thats pretty impossible.

I'm not sure what types of play could support 1vs1 in Hoh. But for broken tower i think 1vs1 kill count would be a very good idea. I guess since people want to see some of the holding element back into ha, you could change courtyard to 1vs1vs1 King of the Hill.

On another point the map objective of capture points in HA is really what i hate the most. The HoH map format just doesnt support AB style capping. It's always basically hoping one of the teams is going for the other guys and will let you get ahead or else you're pretty much screwed if they choose to go for yours all the time.

AB style capping should stay in AB. Relic runs in HA are fine at the moment right now.. but the 1vs1vs1 problem still persists and I think that is HA's biggest problems.

Thanks for reading this O_O

~Neb~

Bread Fan · Jun 30, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Well you may just get your wish. Soon it will be 1v1 relic runs in halls due to lack of players. At least something positive came out of Anets brainstorm on destroying HA.

Nebuchadnezzer · Jun 30, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

There might not be alot of the old players in HA, that I know, anyone with half a brain can figure this out. There still is a decent amount of people still playing HA. I just got back into it with my friends after we took a break from 8vs8 pvp for some TA fun :P. I'd rather have new objectives and maps that will entice more new people to come into HA rather then desperatly try to bring back the old players with altar holding.

I think it's too late to get the old players back, but its far from to late to save HA as a whole. New people can refresh HA, they may not be awesome now, but once HA promotes balanced builds and skillful playing you will see an increase in new "good" players. I'd rather not see a revert back to the old Altar holding because even if you don't want to admit it, that really got boring to most people, and promoted stupid defense heavy teams.

Death_From_Above · Jun 30, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Why I prefer killcount and like it? It is something more tactical that encourages good positioning with a time restraint. Did you ever imagine ever using that empty 90% of those maps before? .

Well for the record, yes i did imagine using that 90 percent emptyness of the maps before and infact i did and i saw many others too. Apart from possitioning explain how kill count is better? If i recall, alter capping required you to watch your possitioning and so do many of the remaining maps. Alter capping had a time restraint therefore meaning you needed good positioning, with a time restraint with skill and so on. In what ways does this therefore make kill count better if alter capping already had many of these qualitys. If you say possitioning is not important on alter maps then you just tell your team to jump onto the middle of the alter during the fighting and lets see what happens. Or maybe you just tell your spirit spammer to not post a spirit far but in range of the fighting near the steps but instead on the alter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

I also prefer killcount because it makes players (new or old) find new ways of dealing damage. Now this advantage goes to spike builds easily yet its not always the case that they are the winner. Snares are used more in this map more then anything else, Deep Freeze is finally an ace card in this environment.

Dealing damage? So ye it helps you find new ways of dealing damage *or shall i say encourages you to use exsisting ways* and helps you not to find ways you deal damage as your previously done it like heavy hex or heavy pressure. Clearly this does not make sense. As for your deep freeze statement, basically then if anyone wants to have a good chance of success they should use basically the same skills like water ele skills. How does this increase build diversity. As for spike builds, erm yes they do tend to easily win if they know what there doing and advantage, why should any team have such a big advantage, if i recall alter capping didnt give such things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Killcount is also, as stressful as it is very simple to understand while being a "You can't hide/turtle" Map which every other map could possibly be.

So where alter maps, if im honest i found alter maps 1bil times more easier to understand than kill count maps. As for you cant hide, erm with no other maps you cant. What ever you do you will always be found and also ye so running around for 5 minutes is better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

The reason I did not like altar holding as the pure and only objective in halls is because of its ridiculous defensive nature. Example would be when people used double Incomming! Paragons. People would purposely attempt to get a halls skip essentially to "have a chance" at taking out the former "Incomming!" team and hold for the next few hours.

Dude were on about 8v8 with alter capping not 6v6. Nightfall and alter capping has not come out yet. Other wise you would notice pargons would most likely be tammed by heavy hex teams especially those using the shout shut downs. This would most likely reduce the number of paragons running around and as for 8v8 alter holding and 6v6 trust me its a very different thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Infact matches were eventually decided on who rolls highest in rounds beforehand because every build did not care about any offence whatsoever- Kill count changed this.

Yes with 6v6 not 8v8. Big differance. This is not for 6v6 alter capping but for 8v8 alter capping, you need to realise this before we can continue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

With the new HA environment, and multiple objectives in halls more balanced teams are holding (which I believe should be happening) and you must be ready for split tactics, defending, and relic running for any round. Some builds are absolutely impossible to stop, and some need huge tactical effort to succeed.

You needed this with alter capping my friend. Alot of it infact and you would find the new HA environment does not promote balanced as much as the old one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

None of this is wrong, it's my opinion. I also agree that defending halls defensively took skill. Having twice the amount of people wail on you for X minutes doesn't seem easy. I also believe the older format was boring. And yes your right alot more people enjoyed it back in the day, and people left for WoW/other games so alot of those people aren't around.. it happens go figure.

Yes so you found it boaring whiles the majority found it fun. Who should anet listern to then? Its like me saying i think Gorden browns a bad leader and i think david cameroons better so lets put david cameroon in.

Overall, you have yet to bring a single argument that supports kill count whole heartedly which could not be challanged. I have found flaws in all of your arguments of which many of them dont seem to make much sence.

Just one question i would like to ask, when did you start playing HA and did you start with 8v8 alter capping? As it appears to me you started with 6v6 alter capping but thats just the vibe im getting so correct me if im wrong

idahoajr · Jun 30, 2007, 11:33 PM // 23:33

SB on 1 i'm going in.

i miss being able to call that

Mental Leteci · Jun 30, 2007, 11:39 PM // 23:39

I don't like the fact that you have to depend on the other teams so much. That's why kill count, relic run and capture points suck.

Shmanka · Jul 01, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

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Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Well for the record, yes i did imagine using that 90 percent emptyness of the maps before and infact i did and i saw many others too. Apart from possitioning explain how kill count is better? If i recall, alter capping required you to watch your possitioning and so do many of the remaining maps. Alter capping had a time restraint therefore meaning you needed good positioning, with a time restraint with skill and so on. In what ways does this therefore make kill count better if alter capping already had many of these qualitys. If you say possitioning is not important on alter maps then you just tell your team to jump onto the middle of the alter during the fighting and lets see what happens. Or maybe you just tell your spirit spammer to not post a spirit far but in range of the fighting near the steps but instead on the alter.

Positioning as in "Get out of the AoE" is quite different from "lets go around this way, get behind blue/cap the altar move around etc etc" Altar capping had everyone fighting in the middle, there is BARELY to little positioning, just kiting. As long as your monks are in range of each other and the ghost, and your interrupters are in range I do not see how positioning besides the oblivious is anywhere near important.

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Dealing damage? So ye it helps you find new ways of dealing damage *or shall i say encourages you to use exsisting ways* and helps you not to find ways you deal damage as your previously done it like heavy hex or heavy pressure. Clearly this does not make sense. As for your deep freeze statement, basically then if anyone wants to have a good chance of success they should use basically the same skills like water ele skills. How does this increase build diversity. As for spike builds, erm yes they do tend to easily win if they know what there doing and advantage, why should any team have such a big advantage, if i recall alter capping didnt give such things.

So Iway had just as good a chance to hold as Balanced in altar capping? The water ele is not the only option for a snare, just the most popular. Some builds have no snares at all and are successful still. It encourages new players to learn from higher ranked players to deal damage they way they do, yes probably. All I have to say is if you do not attack the appropriate team, and play your tactics to the best of your ability you lose any map no matter what. Are you attempting to say here that everything was perfect about altar capping? It wasn't perfect there were less complaints. Halls should be multiple objectives, so multiple builds can shine.

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So where alter maps, if im honest i found alter maps 1bil times more easier to understand than kill count maps. As for you cant hide, erm with no other maps you cant. What ever you do you will always be found and also ye so running around for 5 minutes is better.

Just because you personally find Kill count more complex then Altar capping, does not mean it is not simple to understand. Kill people, 3 teams highest amount of points wins... The rest of this fragment is so gramatically flawed I don't understand what your saying.

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Dude were on about 8v8 with alter capping not 6v6. Nightfall and alter capping has not come out yet. Other wise you would notice pargons would most likely be tammed by heavy hex teams especially those using the shout shut downs. This would most likely reduce the number of paragons running around and as for 8v8 alter holding and 6v6 trust me its a very different thing.

Just because there is a counter for something does not mean it is not broken, this debate continues. You mentioned a counter so I guess Dshot>everything. Don't bring up these ridiculous points into debates. They make this whole thread more mindless then it already is.

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You needed this with alter capping my friend. Alot of it infact and you would find the new HA environment does not promote balanced as much as the old one.

Mention how many bloodspike teams get to halls consistantly please? Oh yea SoG, and like... no one. Did you play this game Prophecies only?

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Just one question i would like to ask, when did you start playing HA and did you start with 8v8 alter capping? As it appears to me you started with 6v6 alter capping but thats just the vibe im getting so correct me if im wrong

I Ha'ed 3 months in the game, I have a good grasp. In general it seems like people are searching for the perfect game again, honestly this won't be. When factions came out I gvg'ed for a long period of time. Like I said HA was ruined when factions came out. The problems your trying to fix are too far in.
You are all pointing at kill count, its not perfect but its definitely not as bad as you people are making it out to be. Lets not make every thread on this forums Dawsons Creek.

LifesRestorer · Jul 01, 2007, 03:03 AM // 03:03

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Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

I want to know as well which builds were the problem when HoH was a holding map, cause I can't remember any.

All of them. Because I don't know how to interrupt seeking arrows. Because I can't put a hex on an interrupter. Because I can't blind an interrupter. because i can't put SB on a hero to stop him being spiked or interrupted by PD. because i dont know how to put guardian or SoD on a ghost. Because I fail at the game and I got my r9 by grinding with iway on the first two maps of the rotation for two years.