Curse

shoogi · Jun 26, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sentience

It took ages for any substantial nerfs to happen to any of those.

ages = 2-3, max 4, months.

iway = year and a half (little more). 18 months. what would that be, an ice era?
rspike exists even longer than that and its still around.
ive seen bspike making a comeback lately.
proportion, my friend, proportion.

Despozblehero · Jun 27, 2007, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Is it that in order to fix HA it would take too much time out of their already busy schedule (with GWEN and GW2 and all), or is it that since after implementing 8v8 that HA just got cycled to the bottom of the list? I dunno at this point im not even against going back to 6v6 im soooo tired of seeing what i been looking at since 8v8 was implemented. spike, spike, spike, spike... at least with 6v6 the spike power was manageable in the fotm builds (if the builds can run at all in 6v6).

Mental Leteci · Jun 27, 2007, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Make HA 6v6, make HA 8v8, remove altar holdings, bring back altars, nerf paragons, nerf ritualists, nerf this, nerf that. If they just make HA the way it was before they won't need to nerf any skills because people will play balanced builds and learn how to counter.

vixro · Jun 27, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

I say revert the entire game back to 2 years ago.

shoogi · Jun 27, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by vixro

I say revert the entire game back to 2 years ago.

/signed. that was best time of gw.

elektra_lucia · Jun 27, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Yes. 8 hours of b-spike holding. Lots of ranger-spike. Have orders not stack. Or go back to when everything was wammos

. Whoot.

Andrew Patrick · Jun 27, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Hey,

Just FYI I am including this thread in my community summary again to let the designers know the discussion/poll is still on-going.

Shmanka · Jun 28, 2007, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Hey,

Just FYI I am including this thread in my community summary again to let the designers know the discussion/poll is still on-going.

Thank you I do agree Kill Count can be changed so its more functional yet, I also believe there are other methods to solve this problem.

Actually now that I think about it, wouldn't it be cool if Kill Count was more team oriented, as in 2 teams against another 2... nah more functional problems.. I just want more entertaining maps in halls.

Mental Leteci · Jun 28, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

And may I ask what was wrong with altar holding? If people had problem with blood spike in halls couldn't they just fix soul reaping and not change the entire map cause of 2-3 builds. I actually never had problem with anyone holding, even if it's mass interrupting (that would be different with SoC tho), if you can't beat 8 players with 16 then you probably wouldn't win 1v1 either. People went straight for the ghost (especially spiking nubs) and then they whined about massive holding power those builds have.

shoogi · Jun 28, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

the problem with holding is that ppl ran super defensive bunker builds that their goal wasn't winning, it was just not-losing.
but even back then it was better than today, so... =\

Kyp Jade · Jun 28, 2007, 05:30 PM // 17:30

I think, I've changed my opinion that killcount stops dead degen builds, Im seeing far too many on unholy-dark chambers to have all of them just skipped.

However, the problem with killcount is that the playing field is most definatly uneven. And always go in expecting to get ganked, ganking is the first tactic of this type of objective. Dealing with the gank is the second. But at least kill count isnt as bad as capture points when it comes to being able to deal with a gank, options in capture point are a lot more limited.

A few cases
------------
One good team / Two nub teams
Almost Build independent
Good team has strongest chance of winning, individual plays mean little, as one of the nub teams will be wiped, and the good team can just res pt camp and win. Doesnt always happen, but getting ganked by two nub teams isnt that hard to recover from usually.

Two good teams / One nub team
Some build dependance, though 80% of the time (made up number, but makes me feel better) its about who farms the nubs, the other 20% one team gets ganked by the nubs.
Yes some strategy involed for the two good teams, but these types of matches are determined by how whichever good team that gets ganked deals with it, sometimes you can pull out of it, sometimes you cant. The outcome is only partially determined by your move now, and partially determined by the nub team.

Three Good teams
Strong Build dependance.
This is where the argument of kill count limits builds is most valid. This entire match often hinges on a single mistake by any one of the teams, and which of the other two teams takes advantage of it.
1) not moving fast enough to avoid being sandwhiched
2) Stopping to die in aoe
3) Allowing the random deep freeze to hit the entire team
4) .... (you get the idea)

----------
To adress the issure of degen builds failing in HoH, degen builds actually are a nice holding option in the current objective rotation
relic run - same issues everyone has
king of the hill - you have lots of passive offense, pretty sweet deal if you ask me
capture point - degen splits easy, and kills on a split easy
------------

Im one of the few supporters of kill count, I like having varied map objectives, I think straight up annihilation maps can be boring as well. Altar holding is fun too, but in my opinion, having the outcome of a match being dependant on an NPC nobody controls is not the best option. (speaking of which, ban heroes from HA plz, and henchies should be given only if somone err7's) Super defensive holding builds arent fun to play, or play against, and if thats everyones idea of balanced, then lol. Builds should be designed to play well on all maps, not a few. Also why I like varied objectives in HoH.

IF anything, capture points need to be looked at more closely than kill count, but as this is a kill count discussion ill list the biggest issues. (Note, ganking isnt an issue because its a common tactic)

1) Ghostly hero .... enough said
2) Res Shrine camping ... I do it all the time, but I play against the map objectives, not the teams, fix this, at least put in something to discourage camping. The no dmg for a sec or so is NOT discouraging.

3) Kill stealing... Too many times ive started blowing up a group of ppl, only to have an opposing dervish, come take a single swipe at them, and get all the kills

If these issues cant be addressed, then kill count needs to be abandoned as a useable map objective. Teams cannot control these issues, or hope to, making them terrible design flaws I think.

Death_From_Above · Jun 28, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

the problem with holding is that ppl ran super defensive bunker builds that their goal wasn't winning, it was just not-losing.
but even back then it was better than today, so... =\

Please tell me or give me an example of what overly super defensive bunker builds that where being played with 8v8 alter capping? If i recall, holding was never a problem, i fought many holding builds in my time and they all got pooned provided we used our skill and we had the correct utility in some cases. If holding builds where such a problem, why is it back in the day i could go in HA with my balanced build and say ye were going to go win halls or at least try to and pull it off.

If holding builds where such a problem, basically it would mean i wouldnt be able to go in with this mentality because i would know if i met a holding build it was gg. Holding builds are not hard to beat, for example 8 monks. All you need it maybe a strip enchantment or shatter or what ever and you can drop a target. A well of profane, this that ect. They really were not difficult especially when you say have two teams ponding on them.

Another thing, holding builds tend to struggle on things like relic runs and people generaly ran balanced builds or other as opposed to holding builds back in the day. My honest opinion is holding builds *being a problem* has been blown way out of proportion.

One question I desire to be answered is, give me the definition of a holding build someone please or at least what you class as a holding build and if possible an example of one you thought was a problem in HA with 8v8.

Bread Fan · Jun 28, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Shmanka I suggest you get your chin off of Andrew's balls. You follow the devs around on these forums and always make sure that you have something to say in their threads even though you lack knowledge. People like you (PvE players) have ruined PvP enough by posting your ideas/thoughts in threads which don't even pertain to you. Problem is Anet is foolish enough to take the easy way out and please the PvE community while ignoring the PvP backbone.

Mental Leteci · Jun 29, 2007, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Please tell me or give me an example of what overly super defensive bunker builds that where being played with 8v8 alter capping? If i recall, holding was never a problem, i fought many holding builds in my time and they all got pooned provided we used our skill and we had the correct utility in some cases. If holding builds where such a problem, why is it back in the day i could go in HA with my balanced build and say ye were going to go win halls or at least try to and pull it off.

If holding builds where such a problem, basically it would mean i wouldnt be able to go in with this mentality because i would know if i met a holding build it was gg. Holding builds are not hard to beat, for example 8 monks. All you need it maybe a strip enchantment or shatter or what ever and you can drop a target. A well of profane, this that ect. They really were not difficult especially when you say have two teams ponding on them.

Another thing, holding builds tend to struggle on things like relic runs and people generaly ran balanced builds or other as opposed to holding builds back in the day. My honest opinion is holding builds *being a problem* has been blown way out of proportion.

One question I desire to be answered is, give me the definition of a holding build someone please or at least what you class as a holding build and if possible an example of one you thought was a problem in HA with 8v8.

*claps*

I want to know as well which builds were the problem when HoH was a holding map, cause I can't remember any.

Takida · Jun 29, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

why cant anet just bring back all the old mechanics..

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jun 29, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

*claps*

I want to know as well which builds were the problem when HoH was a holding map, cause I can't remember any.

Beating a holding team was only ever a problem if you were a gimmick team, really sucked, or the holding team was really good and it was you vs. them vs. some randomway that skipped from UW... in a few cases it was hard to knock out a team without a decent 2nd team, but this rarely happens... and with fewer skips it is very unlikely to happen.

Maiyn · Jun 29, 2007, 06:11 PM // 18:11

1v1v1 play is sort of unbalanced...

Kill count should probably be 1v1..

I play monk, and I sort of think altar holding would be impossibly ridiculous with the new skills, and new game mechanics. So screw reverting unless you take all that ridiculous ele/assassin/ritualist garbage with it. It was pretty bad back then, and to think of how it would be now.. erp.

Ecko- · Jun 29, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maiyn

Kill count should probably be 1v1..

/agree Thank You.

Randomway Ftw · Jun 29, 2007, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maiyn

I play monk, and I sort of think altar holding would be impossibly ridiculous with the new skills, and new game mechanics. So screw reverting unless you take all that ridiculous ele/assassin/ritualist garbage with it. It was pretty bad back then, and to think of how it would be now.. erp.

Maybe Anet should actually make balanced skills instead, like no unremovable prot. The only skill from nightfall that caused a real problem was efinale, ands that has been nerfed.

Despozblehero · Jun 29, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

8v8 was implemented and no skill balance followed it to address the obvious issuses there were with some of the gimmicky spikes/builds...still nothing to help out HA(after a "signifigant" skill balance update months later)... maybe they want you to change your veiw of HA from strategic PvP to another mindless title grind?(gogo gadget fame farming builds ftw?)