Curse

Mental Leteci · Jun 24, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Kyp Jade, you're a nub. With the post you wrote you wanted to say: "All of you are complete retards and don't know how to play this game."

I bet you like kill count cause you play spike all the time.

God Apprentice · Jun 24, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

I totally agree with every word u said. I'm just saying that "it limits builds" aint a good enough reason to remove killcount. the main problem with killcount is that matches are frequently decided by the worst team instead of the best one.

btw, if u ppl think that removing killcount will bring tombs back to life then it wont.

Well it's basically like this. Back in altar holding, yes, you did have spike. Yes you did have a pressure FoTM (IWAY), and yes you did have balanced, and there were hex builds as well. Now with Kill Count, everyone and their brother spikes. Easy way to get points=spike. The only real times teams I have been in have had to work to win matches were against a japanese guild running some off the wall condition degen and this morning's hex pressure, and both were good matches. Wouldn't it be nice to have more matches like that instead of "ok guys snare him and AoE this target". Removing it might not bring it back to the way it was, but it's a step in the right direction

Leteci you never did answer on why you don't like PD, I understand why you don't like Guardian so much

Kyp Jade · Jun 25, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

With the post you wrote you wanted to say: "All of you are complete retards and don't know how to play this game.".

No, i said 9 times out of 10 i play a relic run, and its a 3-0 because teams try to playit like an annihilation map.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

I bet you like kill count cause you play spike all the time.

Actually I only play balance, and not legoway balance.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jun 25, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

In all honesty, I completely fail to see how this format in HA limits builds.

I can think of only a few examples where you have a difficult time in HA.

Hex Pressure builds, obviously with this build you need to rely with what you have for melee/condition pressure to help insue the kills. So when I think of this to me this is the kind of build that wants to "invoke" the ganking or sandwiching of other teams.

Ele Ball, I guess you got a Zaishen skip?

Look it's not necessary to have a fire or water ele for this map, you need to deal decent damage which is what 90% of all HA builds through history have done already.

Not only do I feel this "restriction" is complete phooey, I feel good examples or actual arguments have not been given. Just complaints.

To those that actually say there is zero strategy in kill count, my suggestion is to think twice. How many times have you lost? Why did you lose? because you capped the altar and rushed one team not considering being hit from behind? Or how about staying on the stairs and not pushing up? How much more strategy is that compared to "Ok Put up song and ward of stability! go ghostly cap gogo!"

Also to the post of saying that the best team has no choice of who wins... yes you do. If you actually think and play like you are the best team you will win.

Kill count is a different kind of HA it's purely positional tactics, not alot of us are used to it plain and simple. I'd like an actual debate not just mockery.

If you fail to see how killcount limits builds, you're retarded, plain and simple. Hate to be inflammatory or anything, but if you don't see it, it can't be explained to you, you're just straight up dumb. There is some strategy in killcount, but it's mostly "don't get sandwiched". There are times when no matter how good you are, you lose. Period. Not that HM would know anything about that (being the best team on a map), so I understand where you're coming from.

Chris Almighty · Jun 25, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

kill count encourages ganking and luck > skill.
also hoh is messed up too, i think it should just be old school holding or atlest just king of the hill no cap points or relic run

vixro · Jun 25, 2007, 08:30 AM // 08:30

There are so many matches where the higher skilled team doesn't win because of the above problems and it usually leads to many matches that are up for grabs off of seemingly based luck instead of strategy or skill. Don't get me wrong I like the amount of pressure kill count can add and the strategy needed to win on it, but some things definitely need to be fixed:

As already has been said, the method for counting kills in kill count is unbalanced. Many teams can do a heavy amount of damage to a player and get the kill stolen. The same problem happens vice versa where a team can do heavy damage to a player, the player gets healed to full, another team spikes that player and the first team gets the point for it even when it went from full life to zero.

A fix for that could be a decreased timer for the amount of seconds that damage is acquired. This could just lead to further kill stealing where a team wounds somebody to 90% and somebody does 10% damage and gets the kill.

Ghostly heroes respawning and running off gives other teams free points by farming the ghostly hero. This can also be done by killing a ghostly and then camping the other team's respawn and killing the ghostly hero over and over again. My guild has won matches this way by not even fighting the other team at all.

A team cleaning up two teams that are already fighting for extra kills with some kind of gimmick build like SF or lots of area damage. This would work if the map was something like the old Scarred Earth, but it's killcount and not fighting.

Feeding or ganking is heavy on kill count and also a problem.

Div · Jun 25, 2007, 09:57 AM // 09:57

I like having an element where strategy (or lackthereof) can make a team lose, but I don't like having stupid luck elements in this game that takes precedence over skill.

Mental Leteci · Jun 25, 2007, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

No, i said 9 times out of 10 i play a relic run, and its a 3-0 because teams try to playit like an annihilation map.

This is true, but you can win either way if you do it right.

Also, legoway should be hexway ([hex] - the guild), but whatever.

Shmanka · Jun 25, 2007, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

If you fail to see how killcount limits builds, you're retarded, plain and simple. Hate to be inflammatory or anything, but if you don't see it, it can't be explained to you, you're just straight up dumb. There is some strategy in killcount, but it's mostly "don't get sandwiched". There are times when no matter how good you are, you lose. Period. Not that HM would know anything about that (being the best team on a map), so I understand where you're coming from.

Not trying to get flame bait but can anyone actually interpret this into some form of logical reasoning. I said why I don't understand, you still see bloodspike, Iway and other forms of builds in kill count that are successful.
I am also sure it can be explained as to why exactly it "limits" builds, what build other then what I posted does it exactly limit besides ele ball and hexpressure?

Again I feel this is just a complaint and no reasoning was given. See you in Halls

LifesRestorer · Jun 25, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

it puts the standard balanced at a disadvantage. playing with kyp i'm beginning to accept the format of KC and begin to actually enjoy it at times (though its slightly late, i moved to GvG a long time ago). At least i know now that it CAN be fun. It still wouldnt beat my beloved altar capping in my books, but i'm not gonna change that.

We have to stick with the times. Adapt or move on.

Lorekeeper · Jun 25, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Not trying to get flame bait but can anyone actually interpret this into some form of logical reasoning. I said why I don't understand, you still see bloodspike, Iway and other forms of builds in kill count that are successful.
I am also sure it can be explained as to why exactly it "limits" builds, what build other then what I posted does it exactly limit besides ele ball and hexpressure?

Again I feel this is just a complaint and no reasoning was given. See you in Halls

Kill count doesnt 'actively' limit builds in the sense that my team gets an error message if it tries to enter kill count with a hex pressure build or balanced build.

read my post a few pages back where i tried to explain the influence kill count has on the HA meta.

in short... certain builds enjoy greater success on kill count. This makes it harder to be successful running other builds.

there are numerous other problems with kill count besides its influence on the HA meta.

i really am quite suprised that all people arent sick of the possibility of being ganked.

it leaves a sour taste in my mouth whenever it happens to us [ugly]

and it happens often.

Mental Leteci · Jun 25, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

If you're playing balanced expect to be ganked. It's how it goes. Before people used to gank spike/iway etc. builds on those maps, now it's totally opposite. I thought they wanted to get rid of those builds (or at least make them rare), but it's not that.

Kyp Jade · Jun 25, 2007, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Not going to argue theres luck involved, any three way match had luck in it, even old school altar capping in HoH.

Kill count maps are as much a "dance of colored dots" as they are forcing team A or team B to do something. Its all about doing your best to play the other teams for a fool.

If your playing ANYTHING expect to be ganked, the tactics involved is how you deal with it. I've found myself between two teams more times than ive wanted too, and sometimes the only way to deal with it is to push clear past one of the teams (yea some of you will probably die) force the other teams to engage, and wait for res, where you get to enjoy flanking somebody. Sometimes the advantage is enough to catch up, sometimes its not. Thats where half the luck is.

The other half unfortunatly is anets bad coding on determining which team gets a kill when both are wailing on a target. that IS ftl

(smart teams camp res points too, imo there needs to be a mechanic to discourage this, as dumping a ward v foes + aoe on a res shrine is a quick gg)

What you NEVER want to see, is a match where all three teams wait until 1 min to engage in any form. Spike teams love this, cause they always win in this situation.

Takida · Jun 25, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

I've been fighting the good fight against kill-count for months now, but I'm finally tired of it. At this point there is no saving HA. Just check out any HoH match on obs. I challenge you to find one that doesn't have 2 of 3 teams running something completely retarded. All I see are 8 rit/ranger/ele/ranger <insert scrub junk here> builds. Even if the original objectives were restored, the metagame is so far gone from anything remotely related to coherent pvp that I wouldn't expect anything good to come from it.

I know HA has always had its share of weird gimmicky crap running around, but there was a time that I didn't mind facing r spike, blood spike, iway, etc. The game was balanced and as such always favored the balanced build in the end. However, things have been imbalanced for so long that I'm starting to forget those days even existed. I can't even imagine forming a normal group right now. I'd feel like I was drowning in shit, facing this crap on every single map.

Agree 100 %

Put in Altar Holding on Broken And Courtyard, Or make killcount 1 v 1..
Atm ha is less fun then playing runescape.

Passive Keke · Jun 25, 2007, 07:34 PM // 19:34

How hard is it to nerf some skills and make HA like it was before? When it was enjoyable. The only thing that is really keeping the game alive at the moment is AT's. When people voted for 8v8 back they did not vote for these stupid mechanics, and they are stupid in every way shape and form. I prefered 6v6 altar holding much more to this, if you play balanced on killcount 9/10 times you will loose and there is nothing you can do. No one wants this stupid metagame, why can't they just do SOMETHING to bring back some life into the game.

vixro · Jun 25, 2007, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Anet just sees sales and player numbers, I don't think they keep track of the number of players in HA that are "having a good time". For those that play in HA every single day or used to, we can tell easily that the morale surrounding HA has plummeted down so far that many players have quit it altogether once reaching their goal rank.

Scarred Earth was one of my favorite maps... with multiple teams fighting each other 1v1.
While altar holding was always not my favorite type of map, it had a way of removing certain retarded builds out of the question and helping skilled groups actually win. Why should an Ele spike team win on kill count when half their team is pretty much dead by the end of the map. I say courtyard and "broken" tower either be 1v1 kill count or switched back to altar control or maybe even the new king of the hill style.

I know the whole reason altar controlling was removed to get rid of gimmick groups like guild [hex] that had hardly any power at all other than to keep everyone alive including the ghost... but don't you think those days are gone with the addition of nightfall creating so many different types of skills? Wouldn't that build been better of being nerfed instead of nerfing the entire concept for HA? I'm confused and bothered while the entire mechanics of HA were changed over one type of build instead of nerfing it and I personally have seen my HA time go from 5 hours a night to 0 because of these types of changes ruining the fun factor of the game.

shoogi · Jun 26, 2007, 12:01 PM // 12:01

if u remember the first months of the game, that was when tombs were really good. the reason- nerfs. arenanet nerfed every fotm build, causing a constant flow of builds. at the beginning ppl were running air spikes- chain lightning was nerfed. then was ranger spiritspam - spirits were nerfed. etc.
and then, for some reason that i fail to understand, nerfs stopped. we are seeing the same builds for a year and a half.
it looks like we all agree that the main problem in tombs is the retarted builds that ppl run. why did anet stop nerfing? i dunno.
killcount has its problems, but removing it wont solve the problem.
its much more vital that:
1. IWAY should only be affected by dead party members.
2. rt spike - every single channeling skill is overpowered.
3. sf spike - last nerf wasnt enough it seems.
and many more.
imo the above updates are much more important than removing killcount.

Sentience · Jun 26, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

if u remember the first months of the game, that was when tombs were really good. the reason- nerfs. arenanet nerfed every fotm build, causing a constant flow of builds. at the beginning ppl were running air spikes- chain lightning was nerfed. then was ranger spiritspam - spirits were nerfed. etc.

It took ages for any substantial nerfs to happen to any of those.

Mental Leteci · Jun 26, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Actually, ONLY skills that needed serious nerf were Chain Lightning, some spirits and some of the hexes (SOME). IWAY wouldn't be so powerful if soul reaping wasn't broken.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jun 26, 2007, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Well they need to balance paragon armor down to 70 (zergway is friggin IMPOSSIBLE to kill if they know what they're doing and you don't have well of silence or something, they're all base 96 armor+), nerf all the rit channeling skills (seriously, show me one other skill in the game that can do that much damage in a one second cast time, with a condition that easy to meet), balance some of the skills that allow people to run a secondary and easily do something like relic run (e.g. pious haste, needs a balance), and many other things. Of course, this will just leave mass AoE fire ele spam until they remove killcount, at which point things will return to actual balanced builds... or at least, balanced builds will have a chance to win determined on skill, not luck, if they get ganked, or if they run into a team they don't have a counter for.