Curse

God Apprentice · Jun 22, 2007, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

1v1 killcount aint good. it will cause ppl to get a slight advantage and start running away. it also encourages lame builds like somw to launch one spike and then ball on each other and spam all their stuff.

either way, HA needs a serious update asap. refresh the entire system.

Well people don't run SOMW anymore >.> Even if they did NR would still destroy it, especially since it got buffed.

Death_From_Above · Jun 22, 2007, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

And yet they are run all the time, and win.

I don't see a point to wasting time with 1v1 killcount.

Id have to agree with randomway here. Also i think we should be looking at not what makes HA have a larger mechanic diversity or say different mechanics. But what is actually best for HA in terms of fun ect and skill promotion. Its like saying i buy a car and i get new wheels which looked cooler. However the old wheels i had where much better. Understand what i mean. We should focus on whats best for tombs and not just what is different.

Shmanka · Jun 22, 2007, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

I don't see an issue with 1v1 killcount if it is implemented correctly.

Neither do I, but I fear people are hating kill count for the fact they believe "better teams just lose and you have no control" which I believe is untrue.

YesNo · Jun 22, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Bring back altar capping IMO, and go 1v1 on broken.

Dinkytowner · Jun 22, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Neither do I, but I fear people are hating kill count for the fact they believe "better teams just lose and you have no control" which I believe is untrue.

I agree completely. I think that kill count has some value in that it DOES take some tactics to avoid getting sandwiched. Yes there is some ganking, but you are always going to have some of that in a 3-way. It's the nature of the numbers. I think that either BT or CY should be cahnged to the new altar mecanics (I would prefer CY) and the other should stay with the kill count mechanic. I think that it adds some diversity into the map list and does require SOME coordination to win. Better teams do win on kill count 9 of 10 times. It's just that 1 time that will leave a bad taste in your mouth.

elektra_lucia · Jun 22, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

What you say doesn't apply for all. If you are hated in the game it doesn't matter where you run, they will chase you. It's fun. :>.

shoogi · Jun 22, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

we didnt mention the fact that killcounts dont include DP. which sucks.
maybe if it had DP killcount would have been much better.

God Apprentice- somw was just an example x_x

and i definitely agree that killcount requires strategy. thats why i vote to leave it on one map. two is too much.

Death_From_Above · Jun 22, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

I would disagree, the fact kill count = map diversity is not a good enough reason i say to keep it. The fact still remains, it limits builds. Also, what happens if one team goes up by say a couple of points and decides to run around the whole map for the remaining time? (that is for 1v1). As for 3 teams i guess you all know the problems with that. Halls should be promoting skill through fighthing, yes possitioning is always important but if you look at halls its primarily head on fights in annailation mode. Therefore making running around which is a big issue already (aka tactics on normal maps like dark chambers). A bigger issue (kill count) takes away from the game rather than adds. Basically your still going to get the problems you had with kill count originaly and also its still going to be run around for x amount for time and fight for 1/8th of x amount of time. Im not sure if im conveying what i mean clearly hear, if not please say.

Ecko- · Jun 23, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Id have to agree with randomway here. Also i think we should be looking at not what makes HA have a larger mechanic diversity or say different mechanics. But what is actually best for HA in terms of fun ect and skill promotion. Its like saying i buy a car and i get new wheels which looked cooler. However the old wheels i had where much better. Understand what i mean. We should focus on whats best for tombs and not just what is different.

what are you talking about? HA having a larger diversity in maps is best for HA and promotes skill..it will decrease the amount of gimmicks, such as zergway, rit spike(well maybe not that, it needs nerfed), SFway, etc. and will promote more balanced builds which shows skill and therefore is best for HA and the game..

shoogi · Jun 23, 2007, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

The fact still remains, it limits builds.

everything limits builds. altar maps dont limit builds? relic runs dont limit builds?

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jun 23, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

everything limits builds. altar maps dont limit builds? relic runs dont limit builds?

Don't play dumb. Altar maps encouraged a certain form of build, but mass offense (iway) and mass defense (bloodspike) were both run successfully, and you could run many other things and still win and hold without being completely geared for it. Killcount, on the other hand, means you HAVE to run a build with a very nice spike, mass AoE, or just a really good offense. Relic runs don't limit builds really (well, halls one means you need a snarer, but if you're talking about unholy/sacred then they don't).

Mental Leteci · Jun 23, 2007, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Strategy in kill count? lol

This is the strategy you ppl are talking about:
Run around or you'll get sandwiched and those 2 teams will do everything just to sandwich you (either you're not a spike so they get free kills or they know each other, 3rd option is that they hate you, but then you fail anyway

There IS 0 STRATEGY in kill count. Maps like that depend on the other team which is shit cause it's the 3rd map and many bad groups get to it.

Dinkytowner · Jun 23, 2007, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

Strategy in kill count? lol

This is the strategy you ppl are talking about:
Run around or you'll get sandwiched and those 2 teams will do everything just to sandwich you (either you're not a spike so they get free kills or they know each other, 3rd option is that they hate you, but then you fail anyway

There IS 0 STRATEGY in kill count. Maps like that depend on the other team which is shit cause it's the 3rd map and many bad groups get to it.

Sorry Leteci, but you just contradicted your own point. To win it takes:
- Avoid getting sandwiched
- Find the weaker team
- Socre kills (ie: defensive builds fail here)

This sounds like strategy, and the fact that there are teams that are bad at this map implies that it takes skill/tactics to win.

Mental Leteci · Jun 23, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinkytowner

Sorry Leteci, but you just contradicted your own point. To win it takes:
- Avoid getting sandwiched
- Find the weaker team
- Socre kills (ie: defensive builds fail here)

This sounds like strategy, and the fact that there are teams that are bad at this map implies that it takes skill/tactics to win.

No, not getting sandwiched is not a strategy, it's logical thing to do. You can't call that a strategy because if they decide they want YOU sandwiched you can't really do much but run in circles until one team gets smarter (it never happens especially when you're balanced).

Dinkytowner · Jun 23, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

OK, we can throw out not getting sandwiched as a strategy. But, I will still say that it takes skill and coordination. You can't just blindly run to the altar, to claim and get a boost. You have to decide a good time to claim, get behind a team that wants to be overzelous, and recognize what team is weaker and when they make a bad move. I think that kill count is the only map currently in the rotation that rewards team positioning and MOST of the time filters out some crappy teams. Yes there are spikes, SF teams and other crap that is going to buck the trend once in awhile, but the better team will usually win based on positioning and team coordination.

As for running in circles, if your build requires that you never confront an attacking team; How'd you get past the first map anyway? Occasionally you have to engage, try to get a kill or two and know when to get the hell out of there. (Again this decision is based on experience, skill and strategy. Three things I think we can all agree we would like to see of more use in halls.)

Bottom line is that kill count, while maybe not perfect, does add variety and some alternate strategies to the map rotation. I don't love it, I just think it makes one more thing you have to consider in your build and keeps things from getting too stale. As I said before I think the best thing here is to promote variety and keep away from a stale meta and stale maps. Keep Killcount on BT and put new altar mechanics on CY and you accomplish both of these things.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jun 24, 2007, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Hell no. If they keep one killcount it has to be courtyard for several reasons: 1. Easier to move around, closing/opening gates encourages more movement and "strategy". 2. Later in the rotation: this allows teams to get decent fame whereas they might have been ganked by lamers for whatever reason killcount or gotten unlucky on killcount. In addition to this, it altar needs to be on BT (assuming altar is in halls) to allow new players to see some of the mechanic and adjust to it; they will probably never get to courtyard for a while. 3. The map doesn't reek of stupidity like BROKEN tower (cough, rez orb on killcount map contradicting the entire objective, cough) 4. Killcount sucks so I dunno why I outlined these points.

shoogi · Jun 24, 2007, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Don't play dumb. Altar maps encouraged a certain form of build, but mass offense (iway) and mass defense (bloodspike) were both run successfully, and you could run many other things and still win and hold without being completely geared for it. Killcount, on the other hand, means you HAVE to run a build with a very nice spike, mass AoE, or just a really good offense. Relic runs don't limit builds really (well, halls one means you need a snarer, but if you're talking about unholy/sacred then they don't).

I totally agree with every word u said. I'm just saying that "it limits builds" aint a good enough reason to remove killcount. the main problem with killcount is that matches are frequently decided by the worst team instead of the best one.

btw, if u ppl think that removing killcount will bring tombs back to life then it wont.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jun 24, 2007, 03:43 PM // 15:43

That's not what I said. I said that it does indeed limit builds much more severely than altars, and limiting builds IS a reason to remove it.

Shmanka · Jun 24, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

That's not what I said. I said that it does indeed limit builds much more severely than altars, and limiting builds IS a reason to remove it.

In all honesty, I completely fail to see how this format in HA limits builds.

I can think of only a few examples where you have a difficult time in HA.

Hex Pressure builds, obviously with this build you need to rely with what you have for melee/condition pressure to help insue the kills. So when I think of this to me this is the kind of build that wants to "invoke" the ganking or sandwiching of other teams.

Ele Ball, I guess you got a Zaishen skip?

Look it's not necessary to have a fire or water ele for this map, you need to deal decent damage which is what 90% of all HA builds through history have done already.

Not only do I feel this "restriction" is complete phooey, I feel good examples or actual arguments have not been given. Just complaints.

To those that actually say there is zero strategy in kill count, my suggestion is to think twice. How many times have you lost? Why did you lose? because you capped the altar and rushed one team not considering being hit from behind? Or how about staying on the stairs and not pushing up? How much more strategy is that compared to "Ok Put up song and ward of stability! go ghostly cap gogo!"

Also to the post of saying that the best team has no choice of who wins... yes you do. If you actually think and play like you are the best team you will win.

Kill count is a different kind of HA it's purely positional tactics, not alot of us are used to it plain and simple. I'd like an actual debate not just mockery.

Kyp Jade · Jun 24, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Kill count not requiring strategy?? Your funny? Ill admit there are times when there is nothing you can do, because at least one team is 100% intent on ganking you.

WHy dont you stop to think wtf why are they ganking me! Simple, your the stronger team, they dont want to risk losing because you can score kills faster or at the same rate they can, so they pressure you, they foce you in the middle between them and the other team, and you have to run away.

Think of this, balance vs paraway vs *3rd team*
Well, i could do two things, I could wipe third team completly, score shitloads of kills, and resign myself to fighting paraway, where are thier chars are very hard targets (150armor avg), or I could push past the paraway team, get them between the 3rd team and us, and wipe them. (kills will be split between the 2 teams) and THEN wipe 3rd team.

Its like relic run, 90% of HA has no clue wtf to do on a relic run, or the best ways to handle it. SO many ppl believe that the 1v1 annihilation map is how everything should be. I thnk that would be boring as hell, diff map objectives are ftw.