Curse

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jun 19, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Oh my god, I think the world might explode... a person from anet posted in a PvP thread bashing them, and twice in one page! *claps* (dunno who you are actually, don't recognize the name, but thanks for paying attention to us). What people have already said in the last few posts pretty much sums it up. A skillbalance is needed desperately as well as many of the changes they outlined (3 way format sucks, forced to run offensive builds, etc.). Also, the maps are really poorly adapted to the objectives... courtyard isn't quite so bad, but BT just can't deal with 3 teams trying to out maneuver eachother; you end up running around for like six/eight minutes...

Randomway Ftw · Jun 19, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Wow, that's surprising, thanks for posting Andrew, its really appreciated.

Anyways, I know a lot of people just wanted to play 8v8 HoH with classic objectives, it was really disappointing when they changed it.

Kill count really blows, no one likes it. It encourages ganking and degenerate builds. If you aren't going to do anything else, remove kill count.

The new king of the hill has issues, people complained how only the last 2 minutes mattered in the old one, but only the beginning matters in the new one. Ghost can't be blocked, claim resource is too short, both these allows people to cap with no effort. Too much arcade style game play.

Relic run in HoH is bad, 3 way causes the leading team to be ganked, causing the score to always be close no matter what. It just doesn't work in a 3 team map.

Please keep cap points in AB, its clear they weren't meant for 3 team HoH.

So anyways classic HoH ftw, 3 team maps should actually work for 3 teams, not just be an adaptation of objectives from other game modes. If you really have an issue with holding builds, do something about it other than changing the objectives.

Andrew Patrick · Jun 19, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Oh my god, I think the world might explode... a person from anet posted in a PvP thread

You better sit down for this one then...I also play GvG 4 days a week and usually play HA the other 3.

Red Chamalee · Jun 19, 2007, 12:20 AM // 00:20

I miss the old Hall of Heroes format. It had much more skill involved, and you can still hold halz if all 16 people GANK you from the start of timer.

God Apprentice · Jun 19, 2007, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Andrew how come it takes so long to get a response?

Killcount definately promotes spike. Instead of people thinking out interesting builds, the majority is usually Rit/SF spike. I think it gives a mentality of "omfg I have to make sure I get the most kills", and how best to ensure the kill is yours than a spike? Also a skill balance is definately needed. A thought: Drop Paragon armor to 70? How does that sound?

Shmanka · Jun 19, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Now this may seem contradictory to what I usually preach, but I like kill count. Now I have not yet seen a decent defence for it yet so I will attempt to do so.

Kill count brings alot of builds into the mix and some builds to be possible at all.

I think alot of us, even some of the old school players are use to the fact of just having simple goals and simple tactics calls. Kill count completely changes this. It can be at times very complex, you need to read your opponents in the first 30 seconds and understand who can you kill, who do you want to sandwich, does your build do enough damage to only start fighting in the last 30 seconds, or are you the kinda build that has no chance without that altar cap.

Sometimes I feel the rage every voter that wants to get rid of it feels, "Hell I might as well throw dice to see if we win." You win alot? Might get ganked, but if that happens you were in a bad spot to begin with. Alot of players do not understand the science behind this kind of map, there are alot of tactics involved in the caller, your position is the most important thing and I still experiment with my calling in pug groups to further learn the advantages of this playstyle of map.

Does this map completely own you beyond your control and you can automatically lose doesn't matter what you choose? No

There is a solution party position wise to every build combination you face even if they both double-team you. I haven't lost more then 8/10 times on that map with a high ranked group in about 2 months.

Is this map too difficult early on in the rounds? Yes

I would almost have the relic runs before the kill counts. That is my only suggestion, I hope kill count stays and more players actually develop their own tactics for the map.

Death_From_Above · Jun 19, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Wooot a saviour. Hopefully some action will now be taken.

Anyways Andrew thanks for your post. Well problems i find with kill count is it promotes certain builds. This means people are reluctant to run builds like heavy hex or heavy pressure and thus the balance in HA evapourates being its builds like heavy hex which also keep builds like spike in check. Anyways, kill count i feel isnt a mechanic for HA, i would suggest having alter capping back to replace it as this offered fun, was adrenline pumping and allowed for the best team to win.

Were as kill count, all it takes is one weak team to ruin the macth for you. Also, im not fond of the idea of having to run around for say 6 minutes and fighting in the like last 2. It sort of defeats the whole purpose of combat, espcially if ur say a war being you have to charge up and all.

Remove AB points from HA. Firstly, its not original and secondly it doesnt work well in HA. It should be left in alliance battles. HAers primarily care about the fight and not about having to run around capping points to get a little advantage. (many haers hate ab points in ha). Also touching on what gimmie mony thnx said below about king of the hill. Its decent but alter capping is much more better and effective. Yes same may say we should look at change but quality is much more important. Also, regarding the multi objectives in HA to stop holding builds. In light of this i would just like to say im not sure if anyone agrees with me. But anet shouldnt be looking to cripple certain builds with the mechanics primarily. Theres many more alternatives, like holding builds tend to not do so well on relic runs and ho so maybe some system could be put in in light of this rather than trying cripple the builds using the actual mechanics, because from what iv seen its not very effective it just brings up other problems. Anyways that was just an observational statement.

Also, paragon armour definitely needs something done to it. Paragons can be used for defence for a whole team. Its like saying, ill give a monk 80+ armour. It makes things awfully difficult. Ill give you a case senario to explain what i mean, you have a paragon and 3 monks on a team. Now the paragon is what is keeping the whole team up. Now if you want to start killing anything you have to drop that paragon. Problem is hes got 80+ armour thus this is very difficult. Understand what i mean?

Remove relic run from HA. 3 way relic run is not a good idea being its quite a stressful map as it is and you already play it twice on your journey to HA. Secondly, with 3 teams its just to random, the skilled team in most cases wont win.

Lastly, i dont think i mentioned this before or not. Bring back scarred earth or make a new map to replace it. But scarred earth was a good map, it was challanging and this is what HA is about. The challange and conquering it. It also weeded out groups (almost like a filter, aka gimmicks). Made the next matches more entertaining. Yes people didnt like it because you had to work, but at the end of the day you gain fun from giving it your all correct?

Also we need some skill balances to even up the playing field on HA. And if your intrested on how to encourage play in HA there was a post by someone further back giving some solutions or shall i say guidelines as to things which would be cheep to impliment but could boost the numbers of players playing HA.

After some searching i found 2 threads which as basically soul based on the issue of kill count and mechanics for HA so i thought this might be useful for you Andrew being you did say you want all in information you can get correct?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10140336

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10135806

Also, on a side note concerning the paragon armour. I was wondering, if it would greatly affect pve to nurf it. Would it be possible to say have paragon armour = this in HA and something else in PVE?

Bring Back alter capping. My reasons for this are
1. People have been saying you guys are busy so you dont have much time or resources to invest in HA. Alter capping clearly worked so it would be good to have this back.

2. Many people loved alter capping, with its return many players might return, it was fun and relied on build, skill, tatics and movment.

Anyways thanks a ton for replying. Just incase your intrested. Theres many many many posts further back on issues like kill count where players of which some i no longer see here. Have published detailed detailed information as to the problems with kill count and other things in HA such as relic running in Halls.

Theres also a post but randomway on alterholding which you may be intrested in *wink* which would highlight the benefits of having alter holding back in great detail.

Anyways thanks a ton.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jun 19, 2007, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Paragon armor should definitely be dropped to 70, but in response I think that the recent +25 armor cap should be upped a bit (was this intended as a paragon fix, or was it for PvE farming? I can't tell...).

DFA, you can't bring back scarred earth now or for a while-not enough people play.

Remove 3 way relic run from HA, any game type where you want to go into the last few minutes losing is just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up.

AB cap points isn't that great either, I'd like to see it removed, but it's not absolutely horrid.

The current king of the hill is DECENT, but not enough ghostly control/ability to stop caps, etc... old altars were better in some ways, worse in others...

Quote:

I think alot of us, even some of the old school players are use to the fact of just having simple goals and simple tactics calls. Kill count completely changes this. It can be at times very complex, you need to read your opponents in the first 30 seconds and understand who can you kill, who do you want to sandwich, does your build do enough damage to only start fighting in the last 30 seconds, or are you the kinda build that has no chance without that altar cap.

Congratulations, you just summed up almost everything that is wrong with killcount! (there should be no game type where you are forced to sandwich people, bring enough damage to fight in the last few minutes, or be able to pick which team sucks more and steamroll them, thus leading to a dice roll for the 3rd team). Also, sometimes you do lose control of the map and lose no matter what due to a third team. I assure you, I do understand the "science" of killcount maps, but it's kind of like understanding the science of the B.C. era: it shouldn't be necessary, cause it's some really f***ed up science.

bogatyr · Jun 19, 2007, 01:35 AM // 01:35

i thought this thread was about kill count not nerfs to paragon armor?

but since everyone is giving there opinion on everything and a anet rep is reading might as well post

My view on hall and all the shiney rotating objectives: I like most of them.

Since anet hasent suggest any 3rd alternative to the whole kc v holding. I think kc is far better then holding. heres what holding was in a nutshell , 1 team who thought they had enough d would cap alter. Everyone would sit ,eat ,watch tv w/e intill the 2 mink mark then the zerg rush would commense. 2 teams would try there best to beat the crap out of 1 team and there ghost the defending team would rotate wards aegis and stack enchants and spam heals on ghost. Really no skill involved.

Kc you need to use your brain which alot of people dont like but hey to each his own. If you have good players you can win kc no matter what build you use. Kc just makes teams aware of how there positioning affects them and the other teams. the only thing that might improve kc is if you got 1 point every 30 secs for holding the center since that would prevent some stalemates where 1 team is pinched in there base by the other 2. of course with ever 3 way map there is always some randomness as to who wins but no matter what the mod that will happen in a 3 way. people hate certain teams they gank , people are brainless they feed etc...

the halls objectives the new holding is great imo forces action and not just waiting till the 2 min mark to pound on some npc

capture points is great too forces people to use there brain and split i guess thats why alot of people dont like it , they cant use there brain.

relic runs is the only objective thats really stupid. i dont really know how you can fix this

edit:read thru some post and saw this line which i found really funny "2. Many people loved alter capping, with its return many players might return, it was fun and relied on build, skill, tatics and movment." the one thing ill agree out of that is that alter capping relied on your build because you kinda do need a bunch of characters deticated to defence to keep a stationary npc alive" as for "tactics and movement you have to be joking? how much tactics and movment can you really apply to an objective that says keep this big ass stationary npc alive. i love the internet

Randomway Ftw · Jun 19, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Nice sockpuppet, g RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing g.

That's low, really low.

and you voted in the poll, yay.

bogatyr · Jun 19, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

Nice sockpuppet, g RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing g.

That's low, really low.

and you voted in the poll, yay.

dont worry i dont vote on my primary if that matters

awwww im on your friends list yayyy
but who are you Oo

Randomway Ftw · Jun 19, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by bogatyr

dont worry i dont vote on my primary if that matters

awwww im on your friends list yayyy
but who are you Oo

Don't worry I'm not keeping you on my friends list, its just a way of checking my hunch, I wouldn't want you on it anyways. It was pretty easy to find out since you are like 1 of 2 people that actually like kill count. I wonder how many kill count supporters are actually you.

Don't forget to enjoy your permaban.

Nurse With Wound · Jun 19, 2007, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Nice detective work Randomway. Offender b&. I'm leaving this piece as a warning for others. All further offtopic will be deleted . Dont shit up this thread guys, lets give Anet some decent feedback.

Kool Pajamas · Jun 19, 2007, 03:49 AM // 03:49

I still dont see what the problem with relic run in hoh is, other than it being too long. If you dont want to be ganked for having the lead, dont get a lead early.

There needs to be more than 1 objective in hoh to prevent people from making a build soley for hoh, getting some lucky skips, and holding it forever. That was the main problem of the old alter holding.

I think kill count might be able to work as 1v1. The problem with it is that you have to make a build that wins with it in order to advance. And to beat it in a 3 way you need high damage and quick damage. Degen and edenial type builds, for example, dont usually work there because it isnt quick enough and the 3rd team comes over and takes your kill. Or if you are pressing one teams' monk the other team comes over and spikes that teams player because you made their monk useless. Kill stolen. And by having 2 of these maps you cant realisticly even hope to skip it so you have to make your build around it. Other problems like the ghostly running off after he rezzes and the other teams feeding off it is a problem. I'd just like to see the ghostly gone on that map. I'd actually like to see the ghostly gone on a few of the early maps. His d-shot spamming is kinda annoying and puts a degree of randomness into the wins. (super human interupt reflexes on 1/4 and 1/2 sec spells ftl) Another problem with kill count at least on broken tower is the often gankings of 1 team. If you are ganked on that map there is no hope of winning unless 1 or both the teams ganking are complete idiots. Thats a problem of any 3 way though, but at least later in the maps teams dont seem to do it as much because there is more fame on the line. Broken tower is just a 2 or 3 fame map (depending on skips) so people will sometimes just gank for the hell of it.

deadmonkey4u · Jun 19, 2007, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Im personally a fan of changing either broken or ct into a killcount. Id like to see one replaced to oldschool holding but not both so it doesn't become everyone runs super high defense holding builds.

Despozblehero · Jun 19, 2007, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Im of the opinon that Kill count was made for 6v6 and was great in 6v6 but in 8v8 (especially early on) its a hinderance to people not running the huge spike damage builds (which usually happen to be fotm builds). Id like to keep the chess-like quality of needing strategy/movement/co-ordination without the checkers like quality of an instant "king-me" just from the type of map or "weaker" team. Maybe try keeping KC later in the rotation, and see if that makes a difference. Definitely discourage the fotm builds, im all for encouraging new people to play but how about play the objective of the area and not play to get numbers really fast(however if youre really good no harm in both). Maybe add a hero control-type panel for the ghostly? (or maybe even a pet type control panel lol). Id personally suggest taking Heros out of HA (theres HB for that now

). Perception is everything and lets just say Im open to new things in HA other than what ive seen going on.

luilui · Jun 19, 2007, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Much focus on kill count, i think another major problem is with relic maps, all relic maps (especially the hoh becoz it matters the most), the rubberbanding bug makes the whole thing unplayable, u need people constantly saying on vent to make sure ur are not blocked. The idea of relic in hoh is not particularly great, keeping it or not this rubberbanding business needs to be fixed.

Mental Leteci · Jun 19, 2007, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Relic run in HoH is PURE LUCK. Most stupid idea ever, whoever came up with it was a noob and never played HA or at least not good.

Kyp Jade · Jun 19, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

Degen and edenial type builds, for example, dont usually work there because it isnt quick enough

Actually I'd like to point out theres a Degen build going around (forgot who made it) That applies the degen good and quick, has a sin and a fire ele (SF) for kills, and to top it off an EoE (so when the bomb triggers from degening one or two teams down, they get loads of kills)

Also last night GANK was running a mean E-deny build that strips energy so fast the only way to beat it is to run away and hope to snare them in a choke and AoE them to death (if your running an AoE team)

The only true problem I have with kill count, is sometimes things ARE completly out of your hands. If theres a noob team, the team that farms kills quickest wins. Another one (guilty for doing this myself) is if you have friends on one team and they got an err7, they might let u farm thier kills (say hello autowin) before they resign.

Ghostly Runs off to where he died last. Stupid thing loses games.

Capture points are a bit stupid on the HoH map, maybe something like broken tower could support it, but not HoH. The reason is the long choke (hallway). A good water ele can go a long way giving a team time to stop a attacking split.

I dont think old school altar holding is the best solution for every map though. I remember the meta before I quit GW some time back (pre NF) was interupt wars. I even remember getting to HA, owning a teams ghost at 7:55, 5:43, 3:58, and 1:43, and niether my team or the other attacking team could cap cause every character on a team had interupts, and they were tough to take down too.

ANd please, please, do NOT get rid of relic runs, relic runs are the most fun 1v1 and 3 way format (oh the power of anti blocking). Especially sacred temple (ftw)

(btw keep a rotation in halls, but if you have a map objective there it should probably be elsewhere)

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jun 19, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Oh btw, this is directed at Andrew: you have to realize that most of us on the forums are stating what we think in black and white, with no willingness to try things a different way for a weekend or a week or something. At least for me, (idk about other people) this isn't because I'm not willing to give things a shot, but because anet has a history of doing a test weekend and changing it for 6 months, not actually TESTING it... just something to keep in mind... if anet were willing to pay attention for an extended period of time and really fix HA, then we probably wouldn't have so many differing opinions, and less people would be calling for altars (we just want the screw-ups to end)... Hell, I'm not sure this post really makes sense...