Curse

Arkese · Aug 04, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

Then what ARE you suggesting? Because you don't seem to want them to do any damage, and you don't seem to want them to be decent healers, and Anet itself has already forbidden them from running spirit builds in balanced groups because it's 'degenerate.' So come up with another option, or shut it. Your suggestions are not suggestions, they're just bitching.

The problem is 20% of the skills in GW see play in competitive GW. I'm trying to make all the skills stand the same ground.

The Ritualist class is a pure mistake of ANet. They cannot spawn spirits, as you said, in balanced groups. They don't really buff except for Splinter Weapon, which is somehow overpowered. They do not heal nearly as good as monks, they don't kill stuff by themselves. All they have is the Rift/Ancestor's/Burn/Strike combo which is what elementalist are meant to be. This is a sad joke, and the only real way I can see a ritualist doing anyhting in competitive play other than know the first 3 numbers, is either buff (there were times when guilds ran Weapon of Fury rits, but since it's not good enough compared to any other midliner it died) the group's attackers or give defense to the team by spawning supportive spirit out of battle range. The problem is you can get better achivements with a smiter monk/Life Barrier monk (which uses 3 skills in its bar).

fripple · Aug 04, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkese

The problem is 20% of the skills in GW see play in competitive GW. I'm trying to make all the skills stand the same ground.

The Ritualist class is a pure mistake of ANet. They cannot spawn spirits, as you said, in balanced groups. They don't really buff except for Splinter Weapon, which is somehow overpowered. They do not heal nearly as good as monks, they don't kill stuff by themselves. All they have is the Rift/Ancestor's/Burn/Strike combo which is what elementalist are meant to be. This is a sad joke, and the only real way I can see a ritualist doing anyhting in competitive play other than know the first 3 numbers, is either buff (there were times when guilds ran Weapon of Fury rits, but since it's not good enough compared to any other midliner it died) the group's attackers or give defense to the team by spawning supportive spirit out of battle range. The problem is you can get better achivements with a smiter monk/Life Barrier monk (which uses 3 skills in its bar).

Wasn't one of the fundamental points of ritualists that they were supposed to help mitigate the bottleneck that always appeared when forming parties where everyone then had to hang around for a monk to appear? They were supposed to be a replacement class for both damage and healing purposes.

The problem, as everyone knows, is they can do both at the same time, which other classes can't really pull off as effectively. If Anet really wants to weaken their spiking/defensive overkill, the simplest solution is to strip all those broken extra damage effects from their original attribute and dump them in spawning power. Channeled Strike's, Spirit burn's, Wielder's, etc, bonus damage is based off points in Spawning. Resto uses Spawning like DF (and maybe this way they could actually match monks in healing power). Spirits and weapon spells already function this way. It's a simple extension of what the primary attribute already does, gives the primary an actual practical function, and would restrict the class' ability to do everything at once. Make individual skill adjustments as necessary from there.

Arkese · Aug 04, 2007, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

Wasn't one of the fundamental points of ritualists that they were supposed to help mitigate the bottleneck that always appeared when forming parties where everyone then had to hang around for a monk to appear? They were supposed to be a replacement class for both damage and healing purposes.

The problem, as everyone knows, is they can do both at the same time, which other classes can't really pull off as effectively. If Anet really wants to weaken their spiking/defensive overkill, the simplest solution is to strip all those broken extra damage effects from their original attribute and dump them in spawning power. Channeled Strike's, Spirit burn's, Wielder's, etc, bonus damage is based off points in Spawning. Resto uses Spawning like DF (and maybe this way they could actually match monks in healing power). Spirits and weapon spells already function this way. It's a simple extension of what the primary attribute already does, gives the primary an actual practical function, and would restrict the class' ability to do everything at once. Make individual skill adjustments as necessary from there.

I completely agree with you. I still think their damage is too high, as Wielder's Strike at 16 channeling is 126 damage, while Lightning Strike is barely 70 for the same cast time and energy. The recharge is filled up with Spirit Burn which deals 110 damage. Again, overpowered.

TheOneMephisto · Aug 04, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

Wasn't one of the fundamental points of ritualists that they were supposed to help mitigate the bottleneck that always appeared when forming parties where everyone then had to hang around for a monk to appear? They were supposed to be a replacement class for both damage and healing purposes.

The problem, as everyone knows, is they can do both at the same time, which other classes can't really pull off as effectively. If Anet really wants to weaken their spiking/defensive overkill, the simplest solution is to strip all those broken extra damage effects from their original attribute and dump them in spawning power. Channeled Strike's, Spirit burn's, Wielder's, etc, bonus damage is based off points in Spawning. Resto uses Spawning like DF (and maybe this way they could actually match monks in healing power). Spirits and weapon spells already function this way. It's a simple extension of what the primary attribute already does, gives the primary an actual practical function, and would restrict the class' ability to do everything at once. Make individual skill adjustments as necessary from there.

So making them spec 11-10-10 instead of 12-12 is going to fix the problem?

twicky_kid · Aug 04, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

orly? thanks for stating the obvious, and congrats, u've discovered another bad move by anet.

You're welcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

you know, i feel sorry for you. simply cause apparently you really dont know what you are talking about =(

Many good players came directly from TA (leader of vD, ex tag, reno members etc.) and many still play there daily.

What's your point here? Good players come from all aspects of GW. There are many skilled players that do play TA often that's nothing new. When I ran split teams for GvG I forced each team to do TA during GvG downtimes to get better at playing in splits. TA does serve a purpose but in the end its not Competitive which is the key to being determined for a skill balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

ah, I guess you're just another one of those abusing broken builds to cover up for the lack of their skills :\

no wonder at your reply then. Have fun abusing and i'll do my best in the meantime by voicing my opinion on how much needed it is to fix this sh*t already.

Every single build since the Beta of GW that has a distinct advantage over the others is ALWAYS going to be on top even when ran by bad players. The question when you play competitive pvp is do you want to win or lose? If you want to win you single out the best skills and skill combos to use to your advantage. You can complain about the skills all you'd like but tbh that is really the reason for half the band-aid nerfs we get instead of real fixes. Instead of bitching constantly suggest a change and explain why it will "fix" the problem. We can nerf things all day and players will find a work around. How many work arounds has the SP sin bar seen? How about boon prot before Anet had to finally resort to nerfing Divine Favor all together?

I see you conveniently left out all my suggestions for a change to steady stance. Good job and remember have a nice day.

Zev · Aug 05, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Hi just your resident forum lurker coming to give an opinion. I will not bother to try the more difficult skill balancings, but here are two very specific changes of the overall gameplay.

1-A cap of 3 of the same primary profession in any 8 player PvP. A cap of 2 of the same primary proffession in any non-random 4v4 grouping (i.e. AB groups, TA, Hero battles.

2-Other than hero Battles NPC allies are removed from all PvP.

Its not gonna fix the world, but I think its a start. Groups using half or more of the same class in organizzed 8v8 (i.e. not aspenwood) is not for strategy but for abuse, there is no other reason. 3 or more of the same class in TA is the exact same. The AI can perform some skills at unfair speeds and have no place in PLAYER versus PLAYER mode, leave heros for HERO battles.

And now I crawl back into the depths, cheers!

TheOneMephisto · Aug 05, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zev

1-A cap of 3 of the same primary profession in any 8 player PvP. A cap of 2 of the same primary proffession in any non-random 4v4 grouping (i.e. AB groups, TA, Hero battles.

I hate this suggestion so much. How about instead of actually fixing the skills, we just throw in a random crutch that limits the game and lets us keep all the overpowered shit for PvEers.

fripple · Aug 05, 2007, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

So making them spec 11-10-10 instead of 12-12 is going to fix the problem?

Um, yes? Because one of the reasons they're so powerful is they can afford to get the extra few points in all their skills, as opposed to everyone else having to sacrifice a bit of power in order to do more things. That's how everyone else has to operate, so it's perfectly legitimate to make ritualists do it, too.

As I said, skills can still be balanced from there. Some of them are too powerful, like Wielder's, as mentioned above, or the high-damage skills with minuscule recharge times. But reducing the 'does everything' aspect of a channeling/restoration split will lower the overall effectiveness of a team by requiring either non-maxed skills or specialized players, both of which lower the threat level of an all-one-class build without necessarily killing it off completely by nerfing all the skills.

Try to bear in mind that the class is still supposed to actually do something. Most of the suggestions for ritualists I've seen in this thread seem to revolve around complaining that the class exists at all, which is a stupid and pointless thing to be picking on at this point in time. Find more constructive ways to limit their overall power. If they're brought in line with other spikes - lethal, but at the cost of some survivability under sustained pressure - then there is really no valid complaint against them.

As for the comments about damage being too high: to an extent, yes. Some of the lightning effects are a bit too powerful against cloth targets. Against any of the armored classes, however, air starts to take over due to its penetration factor and the added effects. It's a trade-off, and I don't think beating channeling into the ground is a proper solution. Reduce some of the ability to spike constantly, rather than making it impossible to kill things.

Zev · Aug 05, 2007, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

I hate this suggestion so much. How about instead of actually fixing the skills, we just throw in a random crutch that limits the game and lets us keep all the overpowered shit for PvEers.

While I understand where your coming from, please try to listen to the rest of what I said.

Why would any group need half or more the the team to be the same profession? Throughout the entire guild wars history its only been one thing, abuse. IWAY, Ranger Spike, Air Spike, Necro Spike, Spirit Spamming (old ranger style), Rit Spike, Crazy Sin Gank Squads, SF Eles, Barrage/Pet (though more of a PvE plague).

Now I would never support his change by itself as some sort of panacea, (I said it wouldn't cure everything) it could certainly help. Balancing skills would still need to be taken care of, big time. But one of the longest argued against topics is Gimmicks vs Balanced Builds. And a lot of these gimmicks where these massive same class groups.

And Guild Wars has many "Crutches" or limitations. Only 8 team members, only 8 skills, only 1 elite skill. No armor swapping, armor caps, degen and regen caps, etc. But we do not think of these as Band-aids or Crutches, we accept them as limitations by which the game can achieve something greater through control.

And the only real massive same class groups for PvE are the B/P groups you see every now and then, but in PvE its all just exhibition, its just for fun. And most often a massive team of same class is near impossible to form and often unfavorable to use.

But like in all things, I accept that there is the chance I am utterly wrong, I've been playing guild wars since its release and this is my opinion. I will of course keep my mind open, and should an argument trump mine I will gladly accept it. These are just some random thoughts I have, I doubt very much so that they are going to become actual in game changes, I am not that self conceited.

Cheers

neoflame · Aug 05, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

I'd be happy with beating the crap out of Ritualist spike skills, then reworking them to be effective AoE damage dealers. PvE rits would stay happy, and in PvP you might have a character that can fill a niche effectively. You'd have to make NPCs less retarded at VoD first, but that's kind of essential anyway.

Something like "Channeled Strike (10/3/5) - Hex Spell: Target foe is Hexed with ~. After 3 seconds, that foe takes 5..95 lightning damage. If you are holding an item, target foe and all foes in the area are Hexed instead."

Oh, and also it would be nice if Spawning Power didn't completely suck, yes.

Zev: Usually the best way to abuse something imba is to run as many copies of it as possible. Limiting a team to, say, two copies of something completely broken doesn't really make it any less completely broken, and basically changes the best strategy from, say, "run three trees" to "run two trees".

Seamus Finn · Aug 05, 2007, 05:48 AM // 05:48

If this actually makes it to anet:

Fix the bug on Wizard's that allows the defending guild to walk right into the visiting guild's base. Thanks.

Bargamer · Aug 05, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Make Rit/N Minion Bombers as good or better than MM Necros in AB. (Mostly because PVP makes me go UGH. But if it's the only decent way to get faction for the Kurzick/Luxon skills...)

Old "wishlist" that has yet to see any replies from Anet: Interface: Necro minion selection. At least tell us "Why not?"

Riotgear · Aug 05, 2007, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

Make Rit/N Minion Bombers as good or better than MM Necros in AB. (Mostly because PVP makes me go UGH. But if it's the only decent way to get faction for the Kurzick/Luxon skills...)

Kurzick/Luxon faction is shared between characters, if one of your characters is non-optimal for AB, make a more-optimal PvP character and go kill stuff.

TheOneMephisto · Aug 05, 2007, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zev

While I understand where your coming from, please try to listen to the rest of what I said.

Why would any group need half or more the the team to be the same profession? Throughout the entire guild wars history its only been one thing, abuse. IWAY, Ranger Spike, Air Spike, Necro Spike, Spirit Spamming (old ranger style), Rit Spike, Crazy Sin Gank Squads, SF Eles, Barrage/Pet (though more of a PvE plague).

Now I would never support his change by itself as some sort of panacea, (I said it wouldn't cure everything) it could certainly help. Balancing skills would still need to be taken care of, big time. But one of the longest argued against topics is Gimmicks vs Balanced Builds. And a lot of these gimmicks where these massive same class groups.

And Guild Wars has many "Crutches" or limitations. Only 8 team members, only 8 skills, only 1 elite skill. No armor swapping, armor caps, degen and regen caps, etc. But we do not think of these as Band-aids or Crutches, we accept them as limitations by which the game can achieve something greater through control.

And the only real massive same class groups for PvE are the B/P groups you see every now and then, but in PvE its all just exhibition, its just for fun. And most often a massive team of same class is near impossible to form and often unfavorable to use.

But like in all things, I accept that there is the chance I am utterly wrong, I've been playing guild wars since its release and this is my opinion. I will of course keep my mind open, and should an argument trump mine I will gladly accept it. These are just some random thoughts I have, I doubt very much so that they are going to become actual in game changes, I am not that self conceited.

Cheers

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

Um, yes? Because one of the reasons they're so powerful is they can afford to get the extra few points in all their skills, as opposed to everyone else having to sacrifice a bit of power in order to do more things. That's how everyone else has to operate, so it's perfectly legitimate to make ritualists do it, too.

As I said, skills can still be balanced from there. Some of them are too powerful, like Wielder's, as mentioned above, or the high-damage skills with minuscule recharge times. But reducing the 'does everything' aspect of a channeling/restoration split will lower the overall effectiveness of a team by requiring either non-maxed skills or specialized players, both of which lower the threat level of an all-one-class build without necessarily killing it off completely by nerfing all the skills.

Orr... they could just fix the skills...

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

Try to bear in mind that the class is still supposed to actually do something. Most of the suggestions for ritualists I've seen in this thread seem to revolve around complaining that the class exists at all, which is a stupid and pointless thing to be picking on at this point in time. Find more constructive ways to limit their overall power. If they're brought in line with other spikes - lethal, but at the cost of some survivability under sustained pressure - then there is really no valid complaint against them.

As for the comments about damage being too high: to an extent, yes. Some of the lightning effects are a bit too powerful against cloth targets. Against any of the armored classes, however, air starts to take over due to its penetration factor and the added effects. It's a trade-off, and I don't think beating channeling into the ground is a proper solution. Reduce some of the ability to spike constantly, rather than making it impossible to kill things.

The closest thing to a viable, good build that a rit has IMO is a weapon support build. Stuff like either weapon of fury or quickening, a spike support skill, weapon of warding, a support heal or 2, that's a decent build IMO. I don't think that they should be able to spike at all, I mean, look at the spiking power of monks. Such powerful healers shouldn't be able to also have the best spikes in the game, especially when it's a class that happens to get more and more powerful as you put more of them in a build.

And air spikes are limited due to cast time. There's a reason why airspike outside of FC air was never really popular, and there's a reason why obsflame spikes all brought mantra of resolve + ward of stability. There are 2 main problems I see with ritspike:
Multiple 100+ damage skills with a 1 sec cast time.
The ability for them to heal, allowing you to bring as many as you want and not lose healing power.
The more you have the stronger they get.

Most caster spikes have had many more limitations. Most spells are on a 2 sec cast time, which makes them much easier to disrupt. Also, most caster spikes can only bring 5-6 of the spikers, considering that they have to have monks to support them. That means that they are much more susceptible to interrupts and disruption. Ritspike, on the other had, is almost impossible to interrupt, and has 7-8 spikers, making it so that they can still kill even if 3 spikes are disrupted. That's just ridiculous.

Dr Strangelove · Aug 05, 2007, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Kurzick/Luxon faction is shared between characters, if one of your characters is non-optimal for AB, make a more-optimal PvP character and go kill stuff.

Bargamer craps the same Rt/N build all over the ritualist forums in campfire. He's not whining about having to take a rit, he's parroting the same terrible build over and over again.

I'm assuming he found this thread with google or somesuch.

On topic: The key to fixing the rit damage spells is killing the stacking. Spirit burn, for example, could be reworked to damage + burning.

The same concepts go for all the other rit damage spells - add spirit healing, self healing, conditions, make it a 3 second hex, whatever

Second, communing needs to be made more active. Right now, it's a fire and forget easy mode protection prayers line. If you have to manage it more, through things like signet of binding, soul twisting, spirit boon strike, etc, it not only becomes more fun to play, but more balanced

twicky_kid · Aug 05, 2007, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Limiting the number of each class to a maximum of 3 to each party would fix just about every imbalance in the game. Imbalances usually revolve around multiple copies of a strong skill. Putting a limit there would allow us to have some powerful skills but keep them in line at the same time.

Splitting the format up like a Factions tournament or a prophecies only would be really nice. If you want to see real skill put limitations in place instead of this crap we have now.

There is a reason MTG only allows you have 4 of any particular card in your deck at one time. Restricted cards only allowed 1 copy in the deck. I suggest Anet read the article about errata and why wizards doesn't like to errata any card.

Div · Aug 05, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

Make Rit/N Minion Bombers as good or better than MM Necros in AB. (Mostly because PVP makes me go UGH. But if it's the only decent way to get faction for the Kurzick/Luxon skills...)

Old "wishlist" that has yet to see any replies from Anet: Interface: Necro minion selection. At least tell us "Why not?"

For the sake of good arguments in the future of this thread, please make another thread in your PvE forums about what you want changed and don't take your trash here. Thanks.

While I agree that Rits should be able to do something cool with minions, I think it should be based on the fact minions have higher HP, but because you're bombing the minions (thereby requiring them to have lower HP).

Bai · Aug 05, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote: