Curse

LifesRestorer · Jul 20, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

How about you go add up the numbers for rit spike and tell me how much it matters if I interrupt one spike skill.

interrupt the rend enchants, the prots can take care of the rest of the spike. spirit bond + prot spirit = no need for infuse.

Quote:

And no, it isn't the same as every other build in the game. An average ritspike will beat an average (pug) balanced every time

What is your point here? any average team can beat any average pug. PuGs use easy builds because as a pug, they have no chance of getting the amount of fame a balance guild/f-list group will have.

Quote:

Unless you really know what you're doing with balanced (which will only happen in guild/friend groups, not pugs), you will probably lose to even mediocre or average ritspikes every time

if rit spike is imba and therefore should be wiped out of the game and balanced is too complicated for pugs, what are they supposed to play?

Quote:

That is why it is imbalanced, because it pretty much completely mauls everything but the best groups even at low skill levels.

A low ranked spike will always be better than a low ranked balance, simply because a spike is just 321 while balanced needs everyones individual skills to be on a high for it to work.
what you want is for everyone to play balanced, which on paper doesn't sound bad but in reality its just throwing new players in at the deep end.

Despozblehero · Jul 20, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

A low ranked spike will always be better than a low ranked balance, simply because a spike is just 321 while balanced needs everyones individual skills to be on a high for it to work.
what you want is for everyone to play balanced, which on paper doesn't sound bad but in reality its just throwing new players in at the deep end.

In PvP your individual skills working as a team should matter. If even in a spike group your individual skills dont matter theres something very wrong...

I dont think in High-end PvP like HA there should be much of a "shallow-end," for new players... Ive been playing chess since i was 4. When i was little my father taught me how each piece moved and then would have me try to checkmate(or stalemate) his king using just those peices. The little individaul lessons lead up to the bigger picture, eventually I was usuing all the peices together... My point is the lower end PvP should prepare them with what they need to know to do this and the only thing they should need to learn is the maps and map strategies, not how to play from square one. If the larger PvP isnt working for the "new" players then the lower end PvP needs to be improved to better prepare them. Not dummy down the high-end game so low-end players can play.

pigdestroyer · Jul 20, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

ok this olias crap is already invading gvg, remove heros from all pvp. (except from HB, but thats a given..)

infymys · Jul 21, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Since my earlier post was deleted by one of our esteemed administrators, I'll answer Theo's question to me..

Having it limited to 2 heroes or even none for that matter makes it what we call PLAYER vs PLAYER which a lot of people have been emphasizing. I want to play against human controlled toons no matter what skill level they possess. Playing against AI that have nanosecond reflexes, no lag issues and knowing the exact time when to reapply a hex or infusing with a skill such as Spirit Light is retarded. We haven't lost to heroway in weeks but still, it's beyond annoying when 8 out of 10 groups are some form of it. I don't mind losing to a full group of 8, be it a gimmick or balanced group. I've seen people run the heroway build but with an actual group (I speak of [ocho]) of 8 human players and it's been win some, lose some against them but I don't mind because I'm playing against real people.

@Kyp: We took to heart what you said after the match last night in all chat and we feel the exact same way.

kosh · Jul 21, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

"The Heroes Ascent map Dark Chambers has been renamed to Golden Gates."

ty a.net so much.

this has been on my mind for so long. that name just wrong. forget about rit spike, heroes, new maps. balancing skills... you know all those non lil important stuff that no one cares about.

that map name had to be dealt with. i am glad we got that problem sorted.

ty again.

p.s : w/e Izzy smoking il have some.

Bacon Went Monk · Jul 21, 2007, 04:34 AM // 04:34

I remember a few months ago when we tried to tell Anet to fix HA. Apparently they never listened. So why do you continue to try?

Is anyone still around from when HA was fun, or are they all gone? Whoever remembers back when I Usagi I , moomoo, and I played gets a cookie.

Oh, and what the hell's Olias? (Still WTS R9 account)

Hoppervalley · Jul 21, 2007, 05:29 AM // 05:29

I see your point inf. i just disagree i guess i see the heroes as an acceptable alternative for younger players who have trouble getting groups and even harder on them is keeping a group together, you cut the number of people in half and it really does ease a lot of tension, in addition they know that the heroes are playing the bar they are given perfectly, so it acts as a recruiting crutch as well. I guess the reason i really don't mind is because it helps younger players get a start, albeit a bad start but a start, in addition experienced players have no trouble beating these teams and moving on so i do not feel it is particularly overpowered and in need of a nerf, i view it as a mild speed bump on my way of halls. If the only concern was to force players to play with players i'd be all for your suggestion, however it is not my only concern. What i hope is that being able to actually get repetitive play some younger players will get to fight some other teams long enough to actually gain some skill from the fight(maybe im dreaming here). I'm pretty tired and thoughts are starting to jump around a lot so ill see if this sparks a response and come back later(basically i'm trying to avoid ranting) if not i guess we can agree to disagree.

-Theo

Sneale. · Jul 21, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Balanced teams can cut through heroway easily if they respond to what they can see in the meta.

Example, recently I have seen more high ranked teams taking power block shutdown mesmers with Mirror of Disenchantment and other characters taking expel hexes. The rest is simple teamwork, I bet even an unranked vent co-ordinated group can beat heroway if they are prepared with skills to counter it...

If that can't cripple heroway to its knees then I guess heroway is bigger than Chuck Norris...

LifesRestorer · Jul 21, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

consume corpse > Heroway.
made by kyp

masteroflife · Jul 22, 2007, 05:31 AM // 05:31

i tried consume corpse. hell i tired running balanced with an old tainted warder with consume corpse. it works theoretically but problem with humans is that human cannot multi task like a hero. humans don't have reflex like a AI. no human can ever interupt half sec or quarter sec cast skills on purpose. No human can have the knowledge of a AI, knowing that who has tainted or who is going cast what, or who has what hexes your ENEMY have on them.

the proof of this concept is very simple. Take 8 real people and run the heroway build, i can promise that the real people heroway will not be nearly as good as heroway with olias and master of whispers.

Until anet take heros out of all forms of pvp except Hero Battles, all i can say is gg.

in response to SNEALE:
please show me a balance team that can cut through heroway easily. Keyword is EASILY.

P.S.: Heavy AoE and KD makes heroway easier. Note: I said easier, not easy.

Monk Gsb · Jul 22, 2007, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

I dont see whats so bad about them your not running them and they just replace player spots that cant be filled. Even QQ ran heros once what are u gonna do call them noobs...

using hero's to fill in for players and baising a build around the hero ai is very different.

i dont like the idear of totaly removing hero's because somtimes there is no one that can play at the time so how about changing it to 1 hero per 2 real people ( this would be a pvp change only ). this way it nerf's the heroway meta but if u only have 6 ppl in your team and cant find any one u dont have to disband

masteroflife · Jul 23, 2007, 05:13 AM // 05:13

In response to Monk Gsb:
You idea is not bad, however, what is the point of take 1-2 heros to fill in a real player spot, you will be at a very high disadvantage. Heros cannot monk properly, Heros cannot play melee without overextending, Heros cannot trap, Heros cannot snare, Heros cannot do AoE correctly unless you have 4 of them which basically covers half the map in AoE. Imo the only things heros are good at are hexes and interrupting. Heroway exactly plays into the AI with hexes and Tainted Flesh. I think Heros should be taken out of HA and GvG completely because if it doesn't get abused today, it will get abused tomorrow.

Kyp Jade · Jul 24, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

@masteroflife

Most teams I play with cut through heroway easily. There are very few people who run heroway correctly, and it is not hard to beat people who just enter the match with a skillbar setup, no matter what they are playing.

ALso, its not that bad when you realize over half the builds pressure comes from two NPC necros (sometimes theres a fire ele too, but no snares means hes useless imo except on cap pt).... just make sure the players on your team realize taht two and deal with it accordingly, otherwise you will lose to them, good heroway or bad heroway.

However, the issure isnt the build, or the players, the issue is the NOT PLAYERS, wtf I pvp to play against people, its fun. Especially relic runs when tactics and individual plays > Build Wars. Heroes just take that fun away, they dont think, they dont body block, they dont pressure low targets, they dont... do ANYTHING that a player does, and is expected to do. Heroes get flagged, sometimes told to use specific skills on a specific target, but other than that, heroes are -=BORING=-

Monk Gsb · Jul 24, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by masteroflife

In response to Monk Gsb:
You idea is not bad, however, what is the point of take 1-2 heros to fill in a real player spot, you will be at a very high disadvantage. Heros cannot monk properly, Heros cannot play melee without overextending, Heros cannot trap, Heros cannot snare, Heros cannot do AoE correctly unless you have 4 of them which basically covers half the map in AoE. Imo the only things heros are good at are hexes and interrupting. Heroway exactly plays into the AI with hexes and Tainted Flesh. I think Heros should be taken out of HA and GvG completely because if it doesn't get abused today, it will get abused tomorrow.

yea but i play para way and hero's can play a motervation build with "its only a flesh would" surprisingly well xDut

but seriously i would not QQ if they took them out of GvG / HA totaly, i would be happy, but annoyed when it came to our team needing 1 more person and unable to find any one.

Snow Bunny · Jul 24, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigdestroyer

ok this olias crap is already invading gvg, remove heros from all pvp. (except from HB, but thats a given..)

Yeah...Infy and I ran into this in GvG last night. Took some serious axe beating on the guild lord to beat it. Ridiculous that it actually found its way in a GvG.
I'm sorry, but Heroway fails at remotely contributing to anything, including advancing "newbies" to higher ranks to get better pugs. Those "newbies" should make some good friends to HA with, not ruin a good pvp venue.

WTB Olias/Master reaction time/reflexes - 100k+290ecto.

Despozblehero · Jul 24, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monk Gsb

but seriously i would not QQ if they took them out of GvG / HA totaly, i would be happy, but annoyed when it came to our team needing 1 more person and unable to find any one.

if all you need is 1 more spot filled, and youre on the brink of disbanding because of it, theres always the ziashen henchies in HA or the regular henchies in GH

Monk Gsb · Jul 24, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

true,

and the hench in ha are better than most PuG's xD

Ka Tet · Jul 24, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

This is gonna be a long one. Where to begin.

I'm going to entirely ignore the RitSpike issue for the time being, it's imbalanced from head to toe and has been addressed in many other posts. If anyone wishes to argue that RitSpike is not out of balance, please feel free to contact me but come prepared to prove your point.

On to HeroWay.....I think when you get to the heart of the argument about heros its that the necro ai is simply superior in play to a real player. The mechanics of this have been discussed in other posts. Altho 2 areas have been overlooked: (1)the ability of the Ai to react against mesmers(contact the good folks at ugly for more on this, they conducted some testing). In addition to having a computer's speed at storing and retrieving large volumes of information, the henchman ai is designed to not fall victim to diversion, shame etc.... (2)the ai is bred with an uncanny ability to dodge. olias is able to come off a cast, go straight into strafing, back into casting, directly into strafing again when targeted by ranged players. these 2 issues are not the only issues, just the ones that didn't appear to be addressed in earlier posts.

My issue is not with people using heros when their guildies and friends are offline or when they are newer players who just cant get enough people for a team; my issue is that they are given overpowered ai to accompany them when they use certain heros. THIS IS THE PROBLEM! I REPEAT THIS IS THE PROBLEM!

To anyone who would argue that the ai (for certain classes and builds) is not superior to real players, i would suggest that read the other posts in this thread and consider that many of the observations in those posts were made by a number of talented experienced players. If these people still disagree i suggest that they use real necros and compete against heroways and compare. Or you could observe the blunt rule of logic and conclude that its superior simply b/c people do not use real necros when olias is available.

To continue, why is it bad to provide overpowered ai for people to use. The argument most often made is that this is used exclusively by players who are new to the game and cannot get groups otherwise, this is not the case. However, when newer players use heros they are given ai that is superior to real players functioning in those same builds. This is akin to saying its ok for a boxer to bring a baseball bat into the ring to use on his opponent, b/c he's new to the sport and would otherwise not stand a chance. POOR LOGIC!

The other argument made is that new players cant get into good groups b/c they arent ranked. Hmmm...so while they are in essence saying that they do not wish to team with newer players b/c new players are bad, they believe that experienced players should should team with them despite the fact that they are new players and by their own admission consequently bad players. POOR LOGIC.

My suggestion for newer players would be to do what the game's more respected players did. Play the game with real builds and learn and develop your talent, you will soon begin to find yourself residing in better company..........Or, you could continue to run Heroway until you latch onto the next imba and/or gimmick build to come along and then run that and become like.......the intermediate and experienced players who use heroway, b/c it is an easy exploit. These are the same folks who have spent their HA careers running imba and gimmick builds. These are people who have achieved varying degrees of success despite having severe deficits in talent, integrity and intelligence. Is that really who you want to be.

leeky baby · Jul 24, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

heros ascent is a waste of space, i wanted it to go back to 8 v8 but just got worse... so gvg ftw

Franco Power · Jul 25, 2007, 01:58 AM // 01:58

HA still sucks eh?