Curse

LifesRestorer · Jul 19, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

i never said it wasnt imba, i just said it's not as imba as people make it out to be.

gimme, if you arent running any form of interrupt in your build, guess whose fault that is? dont blame the person pwning your ass with their spike.

about the 5% who know what theyre doing with it, is that not the same as every other build in the game? if you know how it works inside n out, you play better at it. its like saying balanced is imba if a r12+ team plays it.

Snow Bunny · Jul 19, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Call me stupid.
I'd prefer to play versus Rt Spike/Para spk/Ran Spk/IWAY/Any spike for that matter, instead of Heroway.

At least there's the slightest, if only the slightest amount of skill used in those gimmicks.

If heroway fails, it's because the Raos/LoD just suck. Those heroes are performing like r12's.

Pit me against r12's or spikes anyday, just don't throw uncreative trash my way :P

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jul 20, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

i never said it wasnt imba, i just said it's not as imba as people make it out to be.

gimme, if you arent running any form of interrupt in your build, guess whose fault that is? dont blame the person pwning your ass with their spike.

about the 5% who know what theyre doing with it, is that not the same as every other build in the game? if you know how it works inside n out, you play better at it. its like saying balanced is imba if a r12+ team plays it.

How about you go add up the numbers for rit spike and tell me how much it matters if I interrupt one spike skill. And no, it isn't the same as every other build in the game. An average ritspike will beat an average (pug) balanced every time, as ritspike requires much less skill to play than balanced. Unless you really know what you're doing with balanced (which will only happen in guild/friend groups, not pugs), you will probably lose to even mediocre or average ritspikes every time. That is why it is imbalanced, because it pretty much completely mauls everything but the best groups even at low skill levels.

Lorekeeper · Jul 20, 2007, 01:25 AM // 01:25

amusing thing happened today when forming a team for HA.

We were 1 player short of a full team... and we needed a taint necro for my degen build. We couldnt find anyone.

So we suddenly realised we could just take Olias. And we pointed out that Olias the hero necro could probably run a taint bar with death nova better than 90% of the HA population anyway so we were better off taking the hero.

quite sad really.

although its not the players faults that Olias is better with death nova than actual players... we are limited by the interface and having to manually click minions to cast death nova on. Olias automatically casts death nova on minions without the use of an interface since he is not a human player with need of an interface as such.

Its like how hero hexers know exactly when all of their hexes are about to wear off... so they reapply hexes without overlap. For a human player to emulate this behaviour would take alot of micromanagement and alot of stopwatches. Im not even sure if it is even practical for a human player to monitor the exact durations of all his/her hexes on the enemy, is it even possible?

2 hero max in HA. That was the solution i saw alot of people suggesting in reaction to the previous time during 6vs6 when it was possible for 1 player to bring 5 npcs into HA. Anet then limited hero/hench to 4.

It wasnt enough.

maybe even a limit to 2 heroes wouldnt be enough. But i wonder how good the current heroway would be if the necro/rit healers were human players?

Assuming the 2 hero slots were the taint and the curser.

Yichi · Jul 20, 2007, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Call me stupid.
I'd prefer to play versus Rt Spike/Para spk/Ran Spk/IWAY/Any spike for that matter, instead of Heroway.

At least there's the slightest, if only the slightest amount of skill used in those gimmicks.

If heroway fails, it's because the Raos/LoD just suck. Those heroes are performing like r12's.

Pit me against r12's or spikes anyday, just don't throw uncreative trash my way :P

Wait im confused here.... you want to play vs rit spike/para spike/iway and you DONT want uncreative trash thrown at you?

Ms Utena Tenjou · Jul 20, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

i mean really girls and guys.. isn't the point of the pvp to win.... doesn't matter how you get there as long as your crafty and can understand the skill vrs skill trade off

Despozblehero · Jul 20, 2007, 07:58 AM // 07:58

actually it 100% matters how you get there in PvP... if you had to just enter the UW to get fame/rank itd be worthless... as it is its still pretty worthless and the FoTM builds have no intention of winning in HA(if they do as a by product thats great) but their real motivation is to farm the 1st 3 maps over and over quickly... By your logic if we were playing a game of checkers and i said "oh no your house is on fire look over there /point" and as you looked away i threw the board on the ground and said i win... i would... i cleared all your peices, and i was crafty. So I win, GG

.
As for skill vs skill tradeoff dunno what the heck you mean.

Surena · Jul 20, 2007, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ms Utena Tenjou

isn't the point of the pvp to win

Well, it actually is but people are making a religious thing out of it. At the end of the day balance will still remain subjective and so all these religiously motivated players will still have something to whine about and point at. It just can't be fixed. Never ever. I admire people's stamina though. Complaining and whining for years over a game instead of leaving it, is a tough thing to do.

dies like fish · Jul 20, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

I'm sick of seeing this heroway. I actually saw this stuff in gvg.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 20, 2007, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ms Utena Tenjou

i mean really girls and guys.. isn't the point of the pvp to win.... doesn't matter how you get there as long as your crafty and can understand the skill vrs skill trade off

When we're actually playing the point is to win. However, noone wants to play a game that is no fun to win and has no strategic or tactical depth. Therefore, the GW PvP community is dead, and has had its place taken by heroes.

Squinty · Jul 20, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Hero's are a part of the game now and you cannot go back from there.

HA is a PVP arena, so why can't Anet turn down the hero AI to the extent that when they join HA the hero's skills and targets have to be controlled completely by the real player, this would then be true PVP assisted by hero's and then a team using this lamer build could really say we used skill to win !!!

£50 says Olias could not keep Tainted on everyone though......

masta_yoda · Jul 20, 2007, 01:22 PM // 13:22

......... i use to play builds with taint and its pretty easy to keep it on everyone. Thing is olias can time death novas and keep it on minions constantly while multi tasking taints with what ever skills his got.

life seriously.....have you vs rit spike or not?
stop saying interupt can win you a game vs rit spike they have 8 spikers, do the math
if you really think blood spike is better then rit spike why dont i see any blood spikes anymore???

Hoppervalley · Jul 20, 2007, 01:42 PM // 13:42

I really don't mind the heroway teams, Now i have no idea if this is true but beastmode told me that quco started using heros because they didn't trust in finding good players every time, and i think to myself thats respectable, you wanna win halls you do what you can. Now please bear with me people i know i'm playing devils advocate here (/sigh again) but i see running hero way as the same thing as playing aggro decks in Magic The Gathering (god that looks even more nerdy in print than i thought it would) yeah you get to win on occasion but you are not getting better at the game and its just a matter of time before the meta game hates you out if you are doing too well. However if you play a challenging meta game based deck you do get better and you learn, granted slowly, and become a better player up to the point where you really can't get hated out you are always a competitor because you have got to where you can make the right decisions. Sure, at first you will lose a lot but even after a week you will see improvement. When i came back to hero's ascent this time i was sad to see that the meta game had changed very little over the course of the last month. Which tells me that indeed as someone has mentioned earlier a lot of the talented players must have left HA and because of this loss the meta game has become stagnant. If you people really wanna make changes and are not just interested in "farming" halls chests then hear me out, hate out the parts of the meta game you don't like. Last time i came back to HA i said ok teams most often played, at least in my time slot, 1)heroway 2) Rit Spike (either wielders strike or n/a rift) 3)paraway, how do i beat these teams consistently? And then i designed my team's bars around beating these teams giving priority on skills according to which hurt the most predominant team the most. I really mean no offense here people but i hardly play HA except when the mood strikes me and i have no problems coming in playing a few rounds to beat off the rust and then winning. I always play balanced (I've played a few other builds when friends ask, even at one dreadfully boring day played IWAY at a friends request *frown town population Theo*) but beyond that I ALWAYS play balanced, because if a balanced team bumps into anything it is capable of beating it if everyone plays at their best.

The point(I know i know finally right?) -
Don't complain about heroway do something about it, is it dominant enough to start running unnatural signet on a mez bar? What about taking divert hexes over RC? How about getting some mellee hate in on the bar? We as players are not helpless to change the meta game actually we are the best at it period. Sure we can cry to anet and they can nerf this or that but in the end there is no greater cure than ruining a player's will to play a gimmick build. You start making players not want to play hero way because they lose 2/3 and then 4/5 and then 99/100 matches and i promise you will see heroway go away.

How to hate it out-
Can't handle speed pressure
AoE is golden (both as a solid source of damage and will keep their spirits low)
Divert Hexes is good (you'll need vent to let each other know who has what)
Diversion(the heroes will run mend body and soul and spirit transfer into it)
Spirit hate spells (i wasn't joking about unnatural)
Interrupts are good (heroes don't know how to watch a mez)
Wards
Aegis chain
Defensive anthem
SoD (a lot of the thumpers don't know to change targets and even if they do they don't do a terribly great amount until the hexes get going again this also forces the heroes to recast which lets your mez get another chance at interupting)

I'm sorry i wrote a wall of words, i do tend to, i hope it gave you all something to think about.

best wishes,
theo

Hoppervalley · Jul 20, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

infymys i don't see anywhere we disagree in terms of tactics to beat it and you seem to follow me on the note that heroway is easy to beat... so i'm wondering why you still want to decrease the number of allowed heroes? Do you feel it would just be better for the community by forcing teams to get human players, or do you have some other motive in mind?

-theo

Sarevok Thordin · Jul 20, 2007, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Anet won't prevent people taking heroes until all human players, ranked or unreanked, get a chance in a team.

In before the usual.

Kyp Jade · Jul 20, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

I'll make two mini posts here, one for heroway and one for rt spike, since they are both part of this thread.

Heroway
I want to play vs players. The biggest thing that keeps me in HA is to play against the better teams. Those matches are loads of fun, and its what keeps me comming back.
I dont play the fame game as much anymore, because I already got me tiger. (though 1k fame/week is pretty nice). And even tho I lose half the time, I want to play against top teams, its just fun.

Whatever build, be it balanced or gimmick, players improve as they play more. However, in heroway, you dont improve, you dont learn to time executions of skills with other players for stronger effects, you just have massive pressure, and lots of it. If a team mitigates even half your damage, your screwed in heroway. And its sad the heros are a bigger threat than the thumpers and the LoD monk the build takes. I want to play against people not AI. Im not going to argue that heroway is easy to beat all the time, because a generalization like this isnt true. There are some teams out there that know how to run the build, they know what to expect from the heros AI, and they work with it. Too bad for the build at least 30% of the pressure comes from one character (death necro), makes dealing with it a little easier.

Rt spike
Ok, my background is blood spike, this it the build I learned to play on. And at the time I felt it was overpowered. You could very quickly get an infusers energy GONE, and spike at your leasure. However the build was limited severly, by the necromancer line not having ANY self heals, or party heals, or party prots. So your attributes were skethcy, and if you came under pressure, you dropped. Teams realized this, so thats why you see bloodspikes running in circles, they are mitigating the pressure.

With rt spikes, Ill ignore the argument that the spike is too powerful, Everyone agrees there, plus its a 1 second spike. It takes a LOT of pressure to get them in teh 1v1, even if they are scrubs, never mind the better teams.
Rt spikes, have EVERYTHING they need in the primary class, and more than that, its a lot stronger than a N/Mo with 10 or so in healing/prot. Whats worse, all the the rt heal/prot is in the SAME ATTRIBUTE.

lets just consider the altar holding scenario. Blood spikes were good at it, but the heal/prot HAD to be there, and be good, damn good. Rt spikes, they get to be sloppy. They can laugh off so much damage when they dont have to spend energy on spikes its not cool. Ive been considering adding a Choking Gas to my build for awhile, it would be nice against heroway and rt spike, however against the new balanced meta, it would be gimped, and those are the guys I want to play against.

(gg infymys)

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jul 20, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Heroway's insane AI is the problem, master of whispers infuses my spikes with weapon of remedy sometimes...

EDIT: btw Theo, it is ancestor's rage rit spike that uses N/A, not rift...

Moa Bird Cultist · Jul 20, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Rejection of variety/'scrubs'/anyone who isn't running what they want by EVERYONE in HA is the reason I don't, haven't and never will bother. There are no innovators in HA and there have only ever been around 4 or 5, (all the builds that have been the fotm.)

It's my opinion that all the arguments against heroway are utterly pointless. You want to play against humans? Go play something else then and stop driving away all the people who would play with and against you given half a chance.

Not everyone has enough friends to fill out 8 slots. If anyone so much as dares to say that's their own fault for being a loser and that they should go play RA til they die...

Sorry. This isn't a post criticising elitism. It's a post criticising all the people who consider themselves elite and will happily insult and bully scrubs when they got to where they are now using exactly the same methods that they are criticising. It makes me sick, to be frank.

Hoppervalley · Jul 20, 2007, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Heroway's insane AI is the problem, master of whispers infuses my spikes with weapon of remedy sometimes...

EDIT: btw Theo, it is ancestor's rage rit spike that uses N/A, not rift...

I'm pretty sure we are talking about the same thing just putting a different name on it.

If i'm mistaken please correct me but the one i'm used to goes something like this-
The shadow prison n/a jumps in as the rits cast rift and then they follow up with ancestors rage. I guess in hind sight it makes more sense to call it the rage spike sense its more common for rage to kill you rather than the rift.... Plus rage spike sounds infinitely cooler ^-^

Anyways that small bit out of the way i think i need to correct myself after reading kyp's post. Indeed not all heroway teams are easy to beat every so often you bump into a group that really knows what they are doing and handles the build well, and when you lose to them it is hard to feel bad in fact the matches are rather fun as the team plays more like a balanced pressure team.

-theo

Snow Bunny · Jul 20, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Wait im confused here.... you want to play vs rit spike/para spike/iway and you DONT want uncreative trash thrown at you?

More creative than heroway :P
I also said I'd prefer to play against that, if it came down between that and heroway, because I get the chance to play against balanced once in a blue moon.