Curse

Kokuyougan · Jun 09, 2007, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

RITUALIST

Avatar of Balthazar - Increase the duration to 10 + (Attribute Rank * 7).

Why? - The effects it provides isn’t as strong as what other Avatars allow you to do...needs to be up nearly constantly to be worth using.

So you're telling me to have only 8 seconds, at 16 Mysticism, as downtime?!
(16*7=112 120-112=8)

P.S
Sorry for making it sound like a flame fest.

I agree with most of your posts.

Zuranthium · Jun 10, 2007, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

LEADERSHIP - *It should not be limited by the number of party members affected, as that really hurts their ability to position and split, therefore watering down the whole class. No, you probably won’t make a build that specifically has a dedicated split Para but the flexibility still needs to be there.

What? I can split a character with inifinite energy management that dps like a sword war with ranged degen comparable to a warrior and can maintain healing on whatever else I split? Yeah I would never make split paragons with that buffed leadership...

What are some specific examples of infinite e-management on a split? I see no way to give a Paragon tons of energy and do everything you're talking about on the same character. Also, any skill that would become a problem with the Leadership change should be fixed on it's own terms. That IS how the attribute should be working, however. The class should not be limited to the kind of play that it sees right now. Or, do you think it's fine to leave the attribute the way it is now. Whatever your feelings are, you'll have to explain for discussion to work.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

The Paragon shout limit is somewhat impractical, and makes aggressive refrain a gamble, and ultimately useless. Obviously you'd need AR and anthem of flame as a combo, which means your team build can't include things like "Shield's Up" without potentially stripping your AR.

How does it make Aggressive Refrain a gamble? Aggressive Refrain would only end if 2 more Echoes are put on you. The change is 2 Shouts, 2 Chants, and 2 Echoes. So you can have up to two of EACH of those things on a character...just not more than that. Which means if "Stand Your Ground!", "Shield's Up!", Anthem of Flame, and Agressive Refrain are all active on a Paragon, using "Watch Yourself!" would cancel either "Stand Your Ground!" or "Shields Up!" (whichever is lower in the stack).

It's just a way to lessen crazy Paragon defensive stacking, which on a Pargon themself is already additionally lessened by the -10 AL that you would get from Aggressive Refrain.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

Healer’s Boon - Remove the “next X spells” clause and cause the spell to fail if your Divine Favor is 7 or less.

I'm pretty certain that the end condition on Healer's Boon is to stop Arcane Mimicry abuse, which could allow you to run an LoD monk with Healer's Boon pretty comfortably.

It's prone to enchant removal but that's very true. The limitations on Arcane Mimicry probably do need to be expanded for it to become playable. Being unable to steal maintainable Elites looks like the biggest one to fix.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodurr

Triple Chop - Instead of dealing bonus damage, actually cause the attack to hit 3 times.

Conjure ftw? That would be a hell of a spike skill.

The damage per hit might have to be looked at...a reduction could be added. It's clearly not going to be a very flexible character, though, since Conjure/Triple Chop/Frenzy is already taking up all of your energy. You'd obviously want Dismember/some other spikey Adren skill/Rush/Rez Sig. 1 skill left for utility but it has to be adren based or else your energy is crap and it probably can't be Heal Sig because your attribute spread would suffer too much.

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Cyclone Axe - Increase the damage bonus to 5 + Attribute Rank.

This and many other skills you're talking about changing are already super-uber in PvE. I think Anet's policy is keeping certain skills intact for PvE balance only, and others for PvP. Even with a nice +damage bonus I can't imagine bringing this into GvG with all the better utility options out there.

I dunno, isn't "Hard Mode" their answer to PvE balance? I do agree that it's hard to think of a GvG character you'd really want to put the skill on, though. It would actually serve a purpose, though. If a Warrior is good at hitting people in the moments they ball up, it's nice pressure (sizeable damage packets to both opponents plus the double adren gain).

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Mokele Smash - Instead of gaining adrenaline, gain 3 + (Attribute Rank/2) energy if you have less than 2 adrenaline skills, and double the amount of bonus damage this attack deals.

Too conditional.

It's only conditional on your skillbar. I saw it as a skill that could make a Shove Warrior work, by providing the e-management to use energy skills rather than adrenaline skills.

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Yeti Smash - Increase the adrenaline cost by 1 point but double the amount of damage done to adjacent foes.

This already does pretty massive AoE damage--50 at 15 Hammer. You want it doing 100 armor-ignoring damage to all adjacent foes?

The damage doesn't actually hit your target (if it did everyone would already be running it, as it would outclass everything else), so yes.

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Berserker Stance - Should end only if you use a non-attack skill.

Then what would balance this out with Flail, BoA, Flurry, Frenzy? It would be way to good. You could cut the recharge down to 15 or 20 and it would be usable as an adrenaline boost skill.

It's balanced out by the fact that you can only use it once every 30 seconds, so it's not an actual IAS replacement. But I actually need to go in and fix the duration so that it only lasts 1 second at 0 strength.

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Galrath Slash / Silverwing Slash - Decrease the adrenaline requirement to 6.

Galrath is still a very strong skill. It's identical to Executioner's Strike, and I didn't see that on your buff list. It should stay the same. Sun & Moon is more popular, not better.

Ermm...how is Sun & Moon not absolutely 100% better than Galrath in every way? Galrath is not identical to Executioner's either because the Axe line is different...Axe has unconditional Deep Wound attacks, so you only have to spend 2 skillslots to get your spike ability. To use Galrath, you have to additionally bring something that causes bleeding AND bring Gash. 3 skillslots. I honestly still can't even think of any builds I'd want to use Galrath Slash in even if it cost 6 adren.

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Hundred Blades - Cut the recharge time in half and cause the attacks to be unblockable.

Nerf Conjure back to where it was a year ago then maybe I'd agree.

I don't see how it's a problem with Conjure...you don't have the energy to be spamming Hundred Blades on that bar.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

I won't make this long, I'll just comment on Spirit Light Weapon.

A player with this up using ghostforge armour is very hard to kill if a spirit is nearby. It takes a lot more effort than you'd expect. Even if a spirit isn't around. On top of that, if they're holding Kaolai...

Even with a spirit around, someone with Spirit Light Weapon on them is easier to kill than someone with Weapon of Warding.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

While there were no where near as many options in the Factions meta, BL is most certainly not a bad skill, as it was probably more popular than Boonprot pre-nerf. Also, making the recharge of BL more than 8 or so makes the skill pretty useless. The 1/4 cast really isn't needed on it, 3/4 is a good time for that kind of skill.

If making the recharge of BL more than 8 makes it useless, then why did you say it was overpowered?

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The thing is, if you were to make a Withdraw into what you proposed, it would simply be taken on midline E/Mos, and would take hexes from overpowered to underpowered. And Hexbreaker aria is alot more conditional than what you suggested.
Hexes are intentionally more powerful than conditions, but harder to apply, which is why there is an "each member loses 1" spell for conditions and not hexes.

You can make Withdraw a 2 second activation. Possibly longer recharge. Not all hexes are harder to apply than conditions, either. Many hexes last 2 times as long as the condi application you're getting from something like Apply Poison as well.

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Although Glimmer isn't the most poweful of skills, it definately does not "suck". For instance, Soul Wedding uses Glimmer, so it must have something going for it don't you think?
1/4 cast heals should not be normal healing skills. Orison is perfectly fine as it is.

Soul Wedding runs a lot of crazy shit because he likes to experiment and the people around him obviously aren't stopping him. How is Orison perfectly fine, btw??? Nobody at all uses that skill. It's quite bad and absolutely worse than RoF.

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Removing the 'While knocked down' condition on SUpportive Spirit defeats the object of the skill.

The current object of the skill is dumb. That's why I'm suggesting it be changed.

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So it's practically an elite slot for a cheaper heal other? It's better in it's current form. I wouldn't personally use WoH as it is, but I'd be even less likely to use it as a 2s charge Gift.

Whatever the amount of healing is that WoH needs to be set at, that's the mechanic I feel it should be using. The current one just doesn't work.

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Dismiss removing two would be extremely overpowered. RC takes up an elite slot, and removes all, but in reality there isn't a huge amount of times it will remove than two or maybe three conditions. A none elite version that does the job just as well for most of the time, lets remember that in this form it would be taken on both monks, would most certainly make RC useless.

Then increase the recharge on Dismiss if it becomes too good. The point is that RC should not be the only viable, targetable condi removal that removes more than one condition.

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And Divert as it is works against balanced teams with just a few hexes. Even if you remove one hex with it, its a hex off, a condition off, and a heal, which is hardly underpowered.

Wow, no. Divert as it is against a balanced team is Blessed light with a 1 second activation, less of a heal, and limited to being used ONLY on someone who has a hex. Divert absolutely needs to become more flexible as hex removal...that's all it can do, after all.

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Healing and Protection are seperated as it is. As you said, Heal monks make red bars go up, Protection monks stop damage before it happens. However you will rarely get a pure healing monk in high end PvP, as Prot/Heal hybrids are so much more effective.

Yes, obviously....because Healing Prayers rather specifically is not balanced. When 99.9% of ALL the teams out there are bringing 2 copies of the exact same skill (RoF), something is not balanced in my book. Many "Healing" Monks have more Protection Prayers skills on their bar than they doing Healing Prayers skills. Aegis could also be argued as a problem, as lower-specced Healing Monks can bring it and get nearly as much effectiveness out of it as someone who is actually a Protection-based Monk.

Yes, every Monk who isn't a Smiter should be a minor hybrid and draw from the opposing line for either a Healing or a Protection skill (Gift of Health and Spirit Bond/Prot Spirit), but I feel that they should have more separation and more distinct roles. This has been talked about a lot and the general conclusion from just about everyone is that Healing Prayers indeed sucks.

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Having a bar which runs Defender's Zeal and cover hexes wouldn't be practical, as you would be devoting a large amount of your bar to energy management, which could still be easily stopped by the target not attacking.

Erm, if your opponent's melee stops attacking, you've definitely achieved something useful. Aside from that, the Defender's Zeal bar wouldn't be running the cover hexes...other characters would. You'd obviously run that character in a hex build with Scourge Healing on the bar, Judge's Insight to support your melee, and whatever else works.

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You want to run a mesmer totally devoted to using smiting signets? Go for it.

Not entirely...you'd obviously take Leech Signet, Signet of Humility...and a couple actual spells. With the upcoming change to Fast Casting the the multitude of signet-affecting skills in the Mesmer line, that kind of build is obviously looking to get some play.

[quoteEmpathic Removal is not bad as it is. It isn't quite on par with some of the other monk elites, but it used to be fairly common on non monk bars. Just because a skill isn't something you'd want to run on a primary monk doesn't mean it's bad.[/quote]

Empathatic Removal was played around with a bit and everyone universally come to the conclusion that it's not good. I haven't seen anyone use the skill for at least 8 months...even outside of GvG.

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Yes, there is alot more underpowered skills than there is overpowered, but you can't realisticly have them all equally balanced. There is alot of different skill effects, some of which are naturally going to be better than others.

Perfect equal balance, no. But that doesn't mean you should be lazy and stop trying. Online games are malleable.

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Avatar of Balthazar - Increase the duration to 10 + (Attribute Rank * 7).

So you're telling me to have only 8 seconds, at 16 Mysticism, as downtime?!

Yep. When your run buff is your Elite, it's a good idea to have it actually be worth that Elite slot.

~Z

TheOneMephisto · Jun 10, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

First, I would like to state that I agree with some things that others have said before. It’s simply impossible to create good discussion over these skills, simply because of the sheer number of them. Very few people even take the time to read through all of them, and you can’t have discussions when huge walls of text are appearing all over the place.

Second, I believe that you are buffing a lot of things that shouldn’t be buffed. I might not mention all of them, but some concepts in PvP simply shouldn’t be workable simply because of design. Some things are designed with PvE in the skill, that’s okay. Some things are designed for beginners, that’s okay. Just like the MtG article that said that some skills aren’t good because they aren’t designed for you. Just because something is designed for the innovator, the beginner, or the PvE buff doesn’t mean that it’s bad.

Now on to my comments. I’ll probably have missed some stuff, because as I said, it’s a huge number of changes. However, the stuff that stands out and/or I notice I’ll talk about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Aura of Faith - Decrease the energy cost to 5.

Why? - Consumes too much energy to ever make it worthwhile.

Doesn’t matter. The intended use of this is to throw on a tank in PvE, I just don’t see the use of it in PvP. You could have a character dedicated to trying to maintain this on everyone, but that simply isn’t worth it TBH. It might be useful for trying to save an incoming flagger, but any way you put it, there really just isn’t a point in using a monk’s elite slot for this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Blessed Light - Drop the energy cost to 5, increase the recharge to 12 seconds, and reduce the casting time to 1/4 of a second.

Why? - It’s too inefficient to actually be used as a flexible skill. With this change it serves that purpose.

Way too powerful. You’re suggesting having a big heal, hex removal, and condition removal on a 5 energy 1/4 cast? That’s simply ridiculous. And I don’t like the idea of balancing based on recharge, simply because of the fact that it either becomes unused or broken in conjunction with stuff like Weapon of Quickening. I would suggest having it say something like this:

Blessed Light Elite Spell. Heal target ally for 10...94 Health and remove one Condition and one Hex. If you remove a hex, lose X energy. 5en, 6-10rech, 3/4 cast

The X energy would probably be fixed at 5, but that would be for subsequent balances to figure out. The recharge would also have to be figured out, as against no hexes it might get a little too powerful. This way, it would gain a lot of flexibility while retaining the core idea. Against no hexes it’s basically a GoH that removes a condition, which is elite-worthy IMO. However, against hexes it’s also useful depending on how often you can get the conditions to trigger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Boon Signet - Increase the amount healed to 15 + (Attribute Rank * 4).

Why? - The signet itself needs to actually heal for enough health to make it worth all the time you’re spending spamming it.

Or just lower cast time? I would probably like it to have a heal between the current and your suggested, but have a 3/4 or possibly 1/2 cast time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Divine Spirit - Cut the energy cost in half.

Why? - Doesn’t really provide you with that much energy back after the amount to had to spend to cast it.

That’s an okay change. However, I’d like a more complete reworking of the skill. Something like:

Divine Spirit Enchantment Spell. For X...Y seconds, Monk Spells cost you 5 less Energy to cast (Minimum cost: 1 Energy). For each skill cast under this enchantment, it takes A…B more seconds to recharge. 5e, 10R, 3/4 cast

The numbers would have to be balanced, but I would like to see it as fairly short lasting (10ish sec), while the A…B figure would determine how many pips it would actually save over time. I imagine this as more of a skill to cover retreats or pushes though.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Healer’s Boon - Remove the “next X spells” clause and cause the spell to fail if your Divine Favor is 7 or less.

Why? - It needs something to stop non-Monks from using it effectively, but for Monks that DO use the skill they shouldn’t ever have to waste energy re-casting it (unless it’s removed by a spell or ability, obviously).

Arcane Mimicry + LoD is why I think they added that. You’d need to add a reliable way to prevent this from happening.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Unyielding Aura - Take 1 second off of the casting time, reduce the recharge to 10 seconds, unbug the skill so that you’re actually always getting full energy when rezzed, and let the corpse caused by the player’s death be exploitable for anything other than minions.

Why? - Would be great fun to see this become play.

Stop kidding yourself. As much as you buff it, an elite res is just not worth it unless you make it like… vengeance style deal 100% more damage or something.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Withdraw Hexes - Make this a non-Elite, move it to the Protection line, set the recharge at 15 seconds, and cause it to remove 1 hex from all party members with a healing amount of 15 + (Attribute Rank * 3) if a hex is removed.

Why? - We need a couple party-wide hex removal abilities in the game.

Much too powerful IMO. Against any hex build just throw 2 of these in the midline and you win. There’s already a lot of debate about proposing buffs to hexbreaker aria, simply because too powerful of party-wide hex removal absolutely destroys hexes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Healing Breeze - Decrease the casting time to 1/4 of a second and very slightly increase the regeneration amount to 3 + (Attribute Rank/2).

Why? - Might actually become useful on an off-Monk who has the energy to spread it.

I kind of like this, as it makes it much stronger on runners, especially in skirmishes. Maybe make some more buffs to try and bring back the prodigy E/Mo?

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Healing Touch - Take Divine Favor out of the picture. It should have a set healing amount of 40 + (Attribute Rank * 5).

Why? - Why should a skill be basically linked to another Attribute??? This change also increases the total amount healed, which is necessary I think.

Another change that makes /Mo skirmishers much better. I don’t know if you’re trying to do this, but the new Healing Breeze + Healing Touch could very well make E/Mos be able to compare to E/Rts as skirmishers, which I think is good. I could definitely imagine teams running old-school Prodigy E/Mos with this combo + heal party at a 10 spec.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Orison of Healing - Decrease casting time to 1/4 of a second.

Why? - Reversal of Fortune should NOT have a stranglehold over Monks. Healing Monks should be able to use this instead.

Too much of a buff. 3/4 or MAYBE 1/2 would be better. The reason that RoF is better is because it’s more versatile, not because it’s that amazing. It’s a decent heal, an okay preprot, a decent way to buy time basically. You can’t use orison like that, as all orison is is a red-bars-go-up skill.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Word of Healing - Decrease the recharge to 2 seconds and set the healing amount as 20 + (Attribute Rank * 9).

Why? - Becomes comparable to RC.

Except that it isn’t comparable to RC, as it’s just a straight red-bars-go-up skill, while RC clears conditions, which is a simply amazing thing in the current metagame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Dismiss Condition - Change the name to Dismiss Conditions, increase the recharge to 5 seconds, and remove 2 conditions from target OTHER ally with a healing amount of 15 + (Attribute Rank * 3) for each condition removed.

Why? - Protection Prayers should have multiple-removal spells.

Way too powerful. If you’re going to do this, at least add another condition to it. At the very least make the conditions scale so that you’re only removing 2 conditions at a 13-14 spec.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Extinguish - If a condition besides burning is removed, heal for half of the normal amount.

Why? - Needs to provide some healing no matter what kind of condition is removed for the spell to become useful in a balanced team.

It’s already powerful enough in a balanced team in a heavy-condition spreading meta (aka KGYU). However, the current meta is more based on stacked conditions. Also, the prodigy emos that used to power this out have gone away, so basically, it’s the metagame’s fault that this isn’t used, not the skill’s fault.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Mend Ailment - Move to Healing Prayers, reduce the recharge to 4 seconds, and change the healing component so that it applies to every condition the target is suffering from at an amount of 5 + (Attribute Rank * 2).

Why? - That line should have the single removal spells.

Mend Condition - Move it to Healing Prayers.

Why? - That line should have the single removal spells.

No. Either make them deal with not being able to heal effectively with their removals or make them rely on allies. Either way, pure-healing monks are extremely boring either way, as they promote red-bars-go-up. I would like to see a metagame based entirely off prot-heal hybrids, but with different focuses. Similar to how the current metagame has 2 main hybrids (RC and LoD), but they focus on different sides. The LoD is based off healing with prot on the side, while the RC has prot with healing on the side.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Reversal of Fortune - Decrease the maximum amount of damage it prevents by 8 points.

Why? - Further establishes the use of Orison of Healing on Healing Monks instead of Reversal of Fortune.

As I’ve said, healing monks will still use RoF simply because it’s so much more versatile. Orison is a simple, not really skill-rewarding, narrow skill. RoF is a skill that scales with skill very well, can be used in a ton of different ways, and is just more interesting overall.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Shield of Absorption - Change the duration to 1 + (Attribute Rank/3) for the first 6 ranks and then (Attribute Rank/2) afterwards.

Why? - Becomes less effective for a Monk who isn’t primarily Protection based.

See the comment on RoF. Prot is just better because it gets better as its used better. It can be way more efficient in the hands of a good player, but can also suck in the hands of a bad player. Hybrid monks are just more interesting in all aspects of gameplay, and promote skill better. Pure heal monks are boring.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

All smite.

Boring. Smite doesn’t really have that many interesting effects outside of the stuff that is already used (scourge). I don’t care about all the pure damage things as long as they aren’t overpowered, as that’s all they really are.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Bestial Mauling - Decrease the dazed duration to 1 + (Attribute Rank/2) but quicken the pet’s attack speed for this to 3/4 of a second.

Why? - With a short duration and long recharge, the actual attack deserves to hit reliably when the knockdown happens.

Why not just change this to something like:

Skill. Next time your pet strikes a knocked down foe, that foe is dazed for X…Y seconds and this skill is disabled for 15(maybe 20?) seconds.

This would makes it reliable while still preventing daze spammage.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Disrupting Lunge - Set the pet’s attack speed as 3/4 of a second for this.

Why? - Pets attack too slow to make this useful otherwise.

If you want to do this up the recharge. The idea isn’t that it’s a reliable interrupt, it’s that you spam it on recharge so much that you randomly get skills. Trust me, I’ve played around with Enraged Beastmasters enough in TA to know that this catches stuff fairly often, and even catches stuff like RoF and spirit bond quite a bit when it’s coming in every 10 seconds constantly for the whole match.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Otyugh's Cry - Drop the duration a few seconds but affect all allied pets.

Why? - YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO SEE THIS GET PLAY IN GVG.

Too powerful in a BM team in conjunction with your buffs to call of haste. A bunch of heavily armored, unblockable, faster running, and faster attacking pets with buffed attacks is just too good. Either this or haste affecting all allied pets is already borderline, both is too much.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Determined Shot - Remove the conditional crap and instead cause it give you 2 + (Attribute Rank/2) energy if it hits.

Why? - I believe an attack skill that you WANT to miss is a pretty dumb concept.

It’s fun in RA in conjunction with Oath shot using obstructions to ensure missing. Not useful, but fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Forked Arrow - Decrease the cost to 5 energy.

Why? - Very risky to use and doesn’t work for spike builds, so it should be efficient.

I’ve seen this used in spike builds plenty of times. It’s fine.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Marauder’s Shot - Decrease recharge by 1 second.

Why? - Synergizes perfectly with Enraged Lunge for Bow Beastmasters that way.

If I run a beastmaster with a bow, I’m not going to be running marauder’s shot, I’m going to be running dshot to shore up the BMs weakpoints (little reliable utility). The pet does enough raw damage if build right, and dshot is just too good to give up. Noone’s going to be running this on enraged lungers.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Punishing Shot - Instead of interrupting the target, it should disable all of their skills for 1 + (Attribute Rank/6) seconds if it hits them while using a skill.

Why? - Needs something extra to be a great Elite.

I’d lower the damage if you want to do that. Currently it’s a combination of decent +damage and interrupt. Making it a combination of decent +damage, interrupt, and ranged miniblackout is just a little too much IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Screaming Shot - Should have a have a 1 second activation time and move twice as fast.

Why? - Could replace Apply Poison for Burning Arrow bars and I definitely wouldn’t mind seeing some alternatives to that skill.

It won’t replace apply because it can’t spread conditions nearly as well and it can’t constantly reapply to cover the condition even through removal.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Antidote Signet - Should also remove weakness and dazed and have a 3/4 second activation.

Why? - Would actually become worthwhile for a few select builds.

What kind of ranger are you playing that cares about weakness and daze? Maybe if it removed cripple and burning or something, but weakness and daze? Maybe on a monk with natural stride, but still…

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Magebane Shot - Remove the “aftercast”.

Why - Doesn’t do much good for this to recharge instantly when they can still cast another spell directly afterwards as you stand there and watch helplessly.

As others have said, spikes. Maybe only remove aftercast if you successfully interrupt a spell?

Blargh, that’s enough for now. Maybe more later.

martialis · Jun 10, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Sorry
A set of skills, but really only 2 skills

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Dragon Slash - Decrease the adrenaline cost by 1 point.

Why? - Has become a little underpowered in comparison to other skill combinations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

“Fear Me!” - Increase the adrenaline cost to 5 (possibly 6).

Why? - It’s just too good with certain skill combinations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Signet of Stamina - Remove the activation time and change the function completely...for 5 + Attribute Rank seconds, cause adrenaline skills you use to not take 1 hit off adrenaline off of other adrenaline skills.

Why? - The skill is useless and redundant with Defy Pain/Endure Pain already here...this change makes it actually do something useful (could be used very effectively with Rage of the Ntouka).

So, [skill]Dragon Slash[/skill][skill]"Fear Me!"[/skill][skill]Sun and Moon Slash[/skill][skill]Signet of Stamina[/skill][skill]"For Great Justice![/skill]
(This is a bad build, but it's only an example.)

So now, while FGJ! is up (66% of the time), dragon slash gives 7.5 adrenaline and costs 9 adrenaline and S&M slash gives 3 adrenaline and costs 8 adrenaline. Ideally, I can use fear me every 2 attacks. This isn't a good example, I know. You've removed the combination of low adrenaline skills and the effect of spamming multiple adrenaline attacks. I now have unlimited adrenaline no matter which skills I use. It essentially gives every warrior bar an inate dragon slash. On second thought, scratch that, let's start again:

[skill]Cleave[/skill][skill]Dismember[/skill][skill]Penetrating Blow[/skill][skill]"For Great Justice!"[/skill][skill]"Fear Me!"[/skill][skill]Signet of Stamina[/skill]

Every attack is a skill (almost), fear me every 4 attacks.

I still haven't read the whole thing, but I'm sure there's more like this.

It's mostly good ideas, and there's lots of detail, but there's enough bad ideas here that if anyone else had posted it, it would have been deleted immediately, and rightly so.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 10, 2007, 02:51 AM // 02:51

I'd just like to say that you're adding/buffing an awful lot of adrenaline boosters (TTL, dragon, stamina, FGJ), and your ideas will probably create some really imbalanced powerful warrior builds. Might want to watch all the synergy that the adrenaline boosters will have with each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Triple Chop - Instead of dealing bonus damage, actually cause the attack to hit 3 times.

Why? - Much too sucky to ever be worth using right now.

As others have said, think of the conjures. Conjure + OoP + triple->crit->prot would be a sick solo-spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Cyclone Axe - Increase the damage bonus to 5 + Attribute Rank.

Why? - Too sucky...

Crude Swing - Increase the recharge by 1 second but remove the “easily interrupted” component.

Why? - The negative conditionality really kills it.

Noone cares about skills like this in PvP, just get used to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Maghunter’s Smash - Increase the adrenaline to 7, make the knockdown unconditional, and cause the knockdown to last for an extra second if they are enchanted.

Why? - Elites that depend on a R/P/S conditionality just should exist.

If this is at the same adrenaline as devastating/earthshaker, you’ll almost never see them run again. Why would you go with weakness when you can get a bunch of 7adren backbreaker’s instead?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Staggering Blow - Cut the adrenaline requirement in half.

Why? - Weakness is not an amazing condition...you should be able to get this thing charged much more quickly.

Fierce Blow - Decrease the adrenaline cost to 5.

Why? - Isn’t even worth using on a Devastating Hammer bar with the buff to Mighty Blow. Could be playable on a Staggering/Forceful Blow bar with this change, though.

Trying to push a staggering bar is just worthless. Hammer’s have slow enough attacks that a retarded monkey could start kiting away after staggering hits, and the condition will get removed. There’s a reason why forceful never really got off, even in a meta with less block.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Charging Strike - Increase the recharge to 8 seconds and cause it to end only if you use a non-attack skill.

Why? - Needs to be usable in conjunction with Bull’s Strike for it to be a good Elite.

Immediately imagines doing a sever-gash-final combo and hitting this skill right before final…. Hehehe…

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Defy Pain - Increase the duration to 12 + Attribute Rank and decrease the adrenaline cost to 4.

Why? - Spending your Elite on a defensive skill better be worth it and allow you to overextend quite a lot.

Dolyak Signet - Decrease the speed reduction to 33%.

Why? - LMFAO.

Again, stop kidding yourself. These are examples of those skills that are designed for people other than PvPers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Endure Pain - Increase the duration to 12 + Attribute Rank and add a +10 AL bonus.

Why? - Needs to actually prevent damage to ever be worth taking.

I remember the days when people used endure pain, until we figured out that the Koreans were right all along and that flexibility was way better than being able to overextend once in a while.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Warrior’s Cunning - Decrease the energy cost to 5 and the recharge to 45.

Why? - Much too inefficient right now.

I’d suggest a recharge more like 30-40 sec. It just isn’t available enough to be useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Barbarous Slice - Increase the adrenaline cost to 8 and remove the conditionality.

Why? - Just isn’t useful with that limitation.

Was decent on dedicated split YAAhoos back when they were still the predominant split template.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Dragon Slash - Decrease the adrenaline cost by 1 point.

Why? - Has become a little underpowered in comparison to other skill combinations.

That’s more due to lack of utility than damage. It still is probably the highest warrior DPS you can get (especially with a conjure on top), however, it has little-no utility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

“To the Limit!” - Automatically gain 1 strike of adrenaline PLUS the amount listed.

Why? - Not a reliable enough of an effect to be worth taking.

Keep in mind that this would allow you to constantly keep and build adrenaline outside of fighting and to almost always go in fully charged. Not sure if that’s something we want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Gladiator’s Defense - Decrease the recharge to 20 seconds.

Why? - Too sucky as an Elite.

Protector’s Defense - Decrease the recharge to 20 seconds.

Why? - The conditionality really hurts it. At least make the skill more workable for some kind of silly build where you have Death’s Retreat and can constantly be jumping to an ally to protect them.

Guess what? Yep, PvE skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Shove - Move this to the Strength attribute, only disable non-adrenaline skills, and change the knock down that is caused to last 1 second longer than normal.

Why? - Makes more sense in that line and needs some changes to become a strong Elite.

So basically like a backbreaker that never misses… hmm…

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

3.) New mechanism on certain melee skills - “lunging attacks”. You can start these attacks from a “Nearby” range rather than an “Adjacent” range. Your character runs forward towards the target while performing the attack. Basically a tiny built-it shadowstep with the attack.

Not sure if I like this so much. Depends on how well it’s implemented.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Black Lotus Strike - Should always hit but not give any of the bonuses if the target is not hexed. Decrease the damage bonus to 5 + Attribute Rank and the energy bonus to 2 + Attribute Rank but also decrease the recharge to 8 seconds as well.

Why? - Becomes less effective for spikes but remains a good energy management ability.

I’d rather just make it a lead attack TBH.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Critical Eye - Decrease the duration to 1 + Attribute Rank, increase the Critical chance to 5 + Attribute Rank, and have the skill be refreshed whenever you cause a critical hit.

Why? - A boring and underpowered skill as it stands now.

Make it an enchantment if you do this. You can keep it up forever either way, at least making it an enchantment gives some chance at removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Why? - The Critical Strikes line should have no spells. Slight duration change is just because the random, uneven Attribute progression is annoying.

Why not? I think that you should try to go by what’s balanced skill by skill, not by creating arbitrary rules based on RPing. Same reason why people saying that all the avatars should last the same time because people worship all the gods equally is retarded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Seeping Wound - Decrease to a 1/4 second cast and 5 second recharge. Also change the duration to 30 seconds and move to the Deadly Arts line.

Why? - Because the effect isn't amazing for an Elite but if spammable the skill could actually become good for condition pressure builds. Move to Deadly Arts because this line shouldn’t have any spells.

Lasts too long. Hexes with short recharges, short cast times, and really long durations make me sick, no matter how much they suck. And I still don’t get your insistence that the line shouldn’t have any spells. Why not? If it’s for a real balance reason, then I’ll listen, if it’s for roleplay or some random reason, then no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Unsuspecting Strike - Make it unblockable and add the “lunging” mechanism to the skill.

Why? - Cause it's a leet sneak attack. They don't know it's coming (in RPG terms), so they shouldn't be able to block. A 10 energy Lead Attack better be worth it.

Don’t balance based on RP. It’s retarded, and almost never gives you good results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Way of the Assassin - Remove the "while enchanted" conditionality, cause all melee attacks to become “lunging” attacks, and change the duration to 5 + (Attribute Rank * 2).

Why? - Because the current effect is hardly worthy of this skill being an ELITE.

With those stats I would consider taking it on a warrior at a 0 spec simply because every melee attack being a mini-shadowstep. That’s a little bit retarded, say goodbye to positioning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Black Spider Strike - Should always hit, but not cause any of the bonuses, if your target is not hexed.

Why? - Assassin class should move towards being more well rounded. If your opponent’s hex(es) get removed as you are using these kinds of attacks, the attacks shouldn’t completely fail and mess up your attack chain entirely.

Needs more of a nerf IMO. Offhand-dual-offhand-dual should be discouraged, while lead-offhand-dual should be buffed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Flashing Blades - Decrease energy cost to 5 and recharge to 20 seconds. Also make it just a “skill” and not a stance.

Why? - Still really crappy as an Elite.

Guess why? You guessed it, PvE elite!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

a new weapon should be created for this attribute line. Shurikens - A two-handed projectile weapon with “half-range” that has an attack speed of 1.2, the double-attacking properties of a Dagger, and a damage range of 5-15. They would basically just be used for Deadly Arts “caster” Assassins to utilize the (low specced) Critical Strikes attribute.

Would the chance of double striking be based off of the deadly arts attribute? Be careful, because I can just imagine spirit’s strength + brutal weapon rits running around throwing these things around at pretty intense speeds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Dark Prison - Reduce to a 30 second recharge and increase hex duration (exact same numbers as Shadow Prison).

Death's Charge - Drop the recharge to 20 seconds.

You really want to push teleporting shove-warriors don’t you…

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Deadly Paradox - Don't let it affect Forms.

Why? - Just to make it so that the new version of Shadow Form can’t be activated any quicker than normal .

Too bad shadow form technically isn’t a form (see arcane mimicry), unless your suggestion is to actually make shadow form a god form. Actually, I’d like this skill just deleted, as it tends to break other deadly arts skills and to make balancing them without this impossible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Caltrops - Reduce recharge to 10 seconds.

Why? - High-cost uncovered Cripple....should be more usable.

Which is also AoE. Not saying that it’s overpowered in the new form, but you have to be careful. Remember, caltrops was used all the time before the siphon speed buff and SP came along.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Signet of Malice - Increase the recharge to 6 seconds but remove a number of conditions from yourself equal to the number the opponent is suffering from PLUS 1.

Why? - Makes it actually do something no matter what.

Might be too powerful. It would make blind against W/A’s basically useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Swap - Should cost 0 energy and be a skill rather than a spell.

Why - Could possibly be put to good use with the Destruction + Rupture Soul but it’s currently too much energy being spent.

Is it possible for a skill to be 0 energy?

There, another set of comments done. Now do you see the problems with walls of text?

Div · Jun 10, 2007, 03:12 AM // 03:12

I'll start this post, but I probably won't be able to read through all those skills for a while. I'll comment on what I can...

Quote:

Blessed Light - Drop the energy cost to 5, increase the recharge to 12 seconds, and reduce the casting time to 1/4 of a second.

Why? - It’s too inefficient to actually be used as a flexible skill. With this change it serves that purpose.

This will make it too efficient. Either decrease the energy cost or reduce the casting time, but not both.

Quote:

Divine Spirit - Cut the energy cost in half.

Why? - Doesn’t really provide you with that much energy back after the amount to had to spend to cast it.

Imo it's already a very playable skill on many deny hexes monks with a lot of 5 energy skills. No real need to buff it even more.

Quote:

Mending - Increase the regeneration amount to 2 + (Attribute Rank/3).

Why? - LOL, it still really wouldn’t be playable but at least it wouldn’t be total suck either.

At 12 healing, it'd give an insane +6 regen, and +7 regen at 15 healing...I'm sure PvE'rs and wammos would love this.

Quote:

Reverse Hex - Decrease the energy cost to 5, increase the recharge to 12 seconds, and increase the damage reduction amount to the same level as Reversal of Fortune (the new version).

Why? - Could be useful if it didn’t take so much energy.

Extremely powerful self hex removal when you get migraine since it casts so fast. Still nothing compared to...

Quote:

Remove Hex - Decrease the casting time to 1 second and the recharge to 6 seconds, move it to the Healing line, and heal for 15 + (Attribute Rank * 4) points if a hex is removed.

Why? - Healing Prayers is in charge of the single removals and the spell itself needs to be less sluggish also.

This skill would definitely need tweaking, as it'll become the single more powerful hex removal in the game. Compare with all other hex removal which are 5 energy/12 recharge...

Quote:

Dodge / Zojun's Haste - Increase duration to 8 + (Attribute Rank / 2) and set the blocking % at a flat rate of 75%.

Why? - A copy could now be useful with Natural Stride when you want your Ranger to be able to get around the map better. It’s also a bit of a buff to Touch Rangers, which is FUNNY.

Whirling Defense - Increase the splash damage to 10 + Attribute Rank and decrease the energy cost to 5.

Why? - Makes it a little nicer for Oath Shot builds (which is really the only way this thing becomes good).

Perma speed boost for touch ranger and much more powerful whirling defense damage. Along with vamp bite/touch, this will make PvE'rs cry even more about a touch ranger nerf ^_^

Quote:

Barbed Trap - Double the amount of damage caused.

Why? - Really sad seeing those weak numbers...

Longer cripple or bleeding would make this a better choice, as most of the time damage is negligible.

Quote:

Poison Arrow - Remove the 1 second recharge.

Why? - Should actually be better than Apply Poison, a NON-ELITE, at spreading Poison.

Longer duration of poison would help. Either that or make it one of those 1/4 second bow skills that can be used as a followup to another skill.

Quote:

Dolyak Signet - Decrease the speed reduction to 33%.

Why? - LMFAO.

This will forever be a PvE tanking skill, especially since there's no cancel stance option for this...

Quote:

Skull Crack - Reduce the adrenaline cost by 1 point.

Why? - Just a small boost to get it some play.

I can see many PvE groups not getting past the zaishen in HA now...

Surprised to not see decapitate on the list. I'd like for it to create bleeding as a cover for deep wound, add 20% AP, and make it deal ~5 more damage than before. As it is now, it's pretty worthless.

I'm not quite sure about the main objective of these buffs. The problem is that some skills, no matter how it's changed, won't be viable in PvP. Another problem is that though this game is centered on PvP, some of the proposed changes would completely break PvE farming (which Anet to a certain extent monitors as well-- see: spirit bond "nerf").

I may rethink these comments after taking a look at how powerful hexes and damage has become though

Zuranthium · Jun 10, 2007, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Aura of Faith - Decrease the energy cost to 5.

Doesn’t matter. The intended use of this is to throw on a tank in PvE, I just don’t see the use of it in PvP. You could have a character dedicated to trying to maintain this on everyone, but that simply isn’t worth it TBH. It might be useful for trying to save an incoming flagger, but any way you put it, there really just isn’t a point in using a monk’s elite slot for this.

If you're running a 5/3 split, I think it could definitely have some possibilities for GvG play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Way too powerful. You’re suggesting having a big heal, hex removal, and condition removal on a 5 energy 1/4 cast? That’s simply ridiculous. And I don’t like the idea of balancing based on recharge, simply because of the fact that it either becomes unused or broken in conjunction with stuff like Weapon of Quickening. I would suggest having it say something like this:

Blessed Light Elite Spell. Heal target ally for 10...94 Health and remove one Condition and one Hex. If you remove a hex, lose X energy. 5en, 6-10rech, 3/4 cast

The X energy would probably be fixed at 5, but that would be for subsequent balances to figure out. The recharge would also have to be figured out, as against no hexes it might get a little too powerful. This way, it would gain a lot of flexibility while retaining the core idea. Against no hexes it’s basically a GoH that removes a condition, which is elite-worthy IMO. However, against hexes it’s also useful depending on how often you can get the conditions to trigger.

However you change it, the 1/4 second cast is important. We should be seeing a few playable 1/4 sec removals in the Monk line and it fits perfectly with BL.

Quote:

Unyielding Aura

Stop kidding yourself. As much as you buff it, an elite res is just not worth it unless you make it like… vengeance style deal 100% more damage or something.

100% more damage...Ooph. LOL. Maybe if it actually protected the caster in some way too? Definitely needs some more though.

Quote:

Withdraw Hexes

Much too powerful IMO. Against any hex build just throw 2 of these in the midline and you win. There’s already a lot of debate about proposing buffs to hexbreaker aria, simply because too powerful of party-wide hex removal absolutely destroys hexes.

It can always be tweaked more. I think I've already responded about this, though. Have it be a 2 second cast time...maybe more recharge. And probably not full party range.

Quote:

Orison of Healing - Decrease casting time to 1/4 of a second.

Too much of a buff. 3/4 or MAYBE 1/2 would be better. The reason that RoF is better is because it’s more versatile, not because it’s that amazing. It’s a decent heal, an okay preprot, a decent way to buy time basically. You can’t use orison like that, as all orison is is a red-bars-go-up skill.

Hmm, how is it too much of a buff exactly? It's not really that efficient. It would just be there when you need the quick cast. The bottom line is that it's silly for one skill to be SO much better than the other...which certainly the case with Orison vs. RoF.

Quote:

Word of Healing

Except that it isn’t comparable to RC, as it’s just a straight red-bars-go-up skill, while RC clears conditions, which is a simply amazing thing in the current metagame.

Comparable because of cost, recharge, and it only affects other people. Obviously RC does amazing things but if it didn't have such a lock on deep condition removal...

Quote:

Dismiss Condition

Way too powerful. If you’re going to do this, at least add another condition to it. At the very least make the conditions scale so that you’re only removing 2 conditions at a 13-14 spec.

That's a perfect suggestion! Only remove 2 conditions at a spec of 12 or higher. Makes sure that a Heal-based Monk does not use it.

Quote:

Extinguish

It’s already powerful enough in a balanced team in a heavy-condition spreading meta (aka KGYU). However, the current meta is more based on stacked conditions. Also, the prodigy emos that used to power this out have gone away, so basically, it’s the metagame’s fault that this isn’t used, not the skill’s fault.

It saw less play immediately after it was nerfed. Remember, it used to be 1/4 cast and 10 second recharge. Which, yeah, was too powerful. Thinking about it more, I would actually definitely rather see it go back to 1/4 cast time and have a longer recharge, as that makes it more versatile and not just a R/P/S skill.

Quote:

Reversal of Fortune

As I’ve said, healing monks will still use RoF simply because it’s so much more versatile. Orison is a simple, not really skill-rewarding, narrow skill. RoF is a skill that scales with skill very well, can be used in a ton of different ways, and is just more interesting overall.

Whatever the change needs to be, Healing monks should not be using RoF. They should be using the heals that are needed for the correct situation. The skill in playing a Healing monk would become not overhealing and knowing exactly when and what spell to use. The same as Prot monks, as they too need to know exactly when to use their prot and how to scan the battlefield, but it's two separate functions that each character is serving.

Quote:

Shield of Absorption

See the comment on RoF. Prot is just better because it gets better as its used better. It can be way more efficient in the hands of a good player, but can also suck in the hands of a bad player. Hybrid monks are just more interesting in all aspects of gameplay, and promote skill better. Pure heal monks are boring.

Pure heal monks don't have to be boring at all, for the reason I stated. It's just two different things, playing Healing or Prot. A true hybrid monk would be Divine Favor/Protection based. The strength of your prot wouldn't be as good as a pure prot monk, but you'd have a Divine Favor Elite that is better at healing than someone you'd find in the Prot line.

Quote:

all smite
Boring. Smite doesn’t really have that many interesting effects outside of the stuff that is already used (scourge). I don’t care about all the pure damage things as long as they aren’t overpowered, as that’s all they really are.

It's not just pure damage...it's anti-melee based damage (and minor prot). If the smite skills were good you'd play it as a linebacker with Bane Signet, Spear of Light, Reversal of Damage, etc.

Quote:

Bestial Mauling
Why not just change this to something like:

Skill. Next time your pet strikes a knocked down foe, that foe is dazed for X…Y seconds and this skill is disabled for 15(maybe 20?) seconds.

It already has a 20 second recharge.

Quote:

Disrupting Lunce

If you want to do this up the recharge. The idea isn’t that it’s a reliable interrupt, it’s that you spam it on recharge so much that you randomly get skills.

That was the idea when it was a 5 second recharge...obviously doesn't work like that anymore and shouldn't. I'd have no probs with upping the recharge, though.

Quote:

Otyugh's Cry

Too powerful in a BM team in conjunction with your buffs to call of haste. A bunch of heavily armored, unblockable, faster running, and faster attacking pets with buffed attacks is just too good. Either this or haste affecting all allied pets is already borderline, both is too much.

Probably true. I just wonder about how effective such a team would be because pets are so dumb? The skills really just aren't good enough as single-pet buffs. Drop the armor bonus and go for a higher recharge on Otyugh's, for now.

Quote:

Forked Arrow

I’ve seen this used in spike builds plenty of times. It’s fine.

What do they do against spread hexes? Ruins the effect...

Quote:

Marauder's Shot

If I run a beastmaster with a bow, I’m not going to be running marauder’s shot, I’m going to be running dshot to shore up the BMs weakpoints (little reliable utility). The pet does enough raw damage if build right, and dshot is just too good to give up. Noone’s going to be running this on enraged lungers.

Errm...you'd run this AND D-shot. Bar would be...D-Shot, Pet shout, Maurader's Shot, Enraged Lunge, Determined Shot (e-management for the combo), comfort, charm animal, rez.

Quote:

Screaming Shot

It won’t replace apply because it can’t spread conditions nearly as well and it can’t constantly reapply to cover the condition even through removal.

Depends on what your team wants. Maybe you don't care about spreading conditions and you want your ranger to have more of a spike in addition to his strong splitting abilities. That's why I said could.

Quote:

What kind of ranger are you playing that cares about weakness and daze? Maybe if it removed cripple and burning or something, but weakness and daze? Maybe on a monk with natural stride, but still…

Yes, exactly. The point is to put it on you monk Monk, who'd be running Scribe's Insight, if you feel like there is a lot of dazed running around in the meta. The weakness removal is just a tiny bonus because it made sense with the skill in my mind. Might even need to make the skill 1/4 second activation, though.

Quote:

Magehunter's Smash

if this is at the same adrenaline as devastating/earthshaker, you’ll almost never see them run again. Why would you go with weakness when you can get a bunch of 7adren backbreaker’s instead

I see what you're saying about Devastating...you'd probably want to make this 8 adren. I don't think it would need to go up to 9, though. After all, Backbreaker for 10 adren is garunteed 4 second knockdown and +damage. Possible extra second of knockdown vs. garunteed AOE knockdown sounds about equal, so this would be on equal footing with Earthshaker.

Quote:

Staggering Blow

Trying to push a staggering bar is just worthless. Hammer’s have slow enough attacks that a retarded monkey could start kiting away after staggering hits, and the condition will get removed. There’s a reason why forceful never really got off, even in a meta with less block.

Obviously comes down to timing Shames/Diversions properly with your Warrior's attack chain. It's all about the proper team build. Staggering Blow in general at a 3 second recharge means they have to spent a good amount of energy keeping their melee free of weakness when this kind of character starts linebacking as well.

Quote:

Dolyak Signet

Again, stop kidding yourself. These are examples of those skills that are designed for people other than PvPers.

LMFAO. I had to include Dolyak. It was too funny not to.

Quote:

"To the Limit!"

Keep in mind that this would allow you to constantly keep and build adrenaline outside of fighting and to almost always go in fully charged. Not sure if that’s something we want.

Only give the bonus IF someone is in Earshot, then.

Quote:

Gladiator’s Defense

Guess what? Yep, PvE skills.

It doesn't have to be. You could create a split warrior out of a skill like this. No skill HAS to be for just PvE, with a few exceptions. It's entirely possible to make them useful for SOMETHING in PvP.

Quote:

Shove

So basically like a backbreaker that never misses… hmm…

For the cost of taking all of your adrenaline and costing energy.

Quote:

Critical Eye

Make it an enchantment if you do this. You can keep it up forever either way, at least making it an enchantment gives some chance at removal.

Skills like this shouldn't BE removable. They are so completely necessary for those particular character builds to function that they NEED to be changed in that manner. Does a Warrior randomly of a chance of doing "X" less damage with their weapon or of Rush randomly ending after a few seconds?

Quote:

Unsuspecting Strike

Don’t balance based on RP. It’s retarded, and almost never gives you good results.

Uhhh, it's called humor? It's just funny/interesting when the balance of a skill matches its name.

Quote:

Way of the Assassin

With those stats I would consider taking it on a warrior at a 0 spec simply because every melee attack being a mini-shadowstep. That’s a little bit retarded, say goodbye to positioning.

It wouldn't last long enough to be worth it on a warrior. In terms of the actually effect, it would just be as if the ability caused you to go into "Dash" whenever you start an attack on someone. An Elite movement stance that doesn't actually let you run somewhere faster when needed for that purpose (but has the extra crit chance to make up for it).

Quote:

Too bad shadow form technically isn’t a form (see arcane mimicry), unless your suggestion is to actually make shadow form a god form.

I am. It should be listed.

Quote:

Swap

Is it possible for a skill to be 0 energy?

Signets are 0 energy "shrug". I don't see the problem.

--------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by martialis

*stuff about "Fear Me!" and such*

Yeah, Fear Me could get too powerful for some builds. It's hard to say exactly what adren level it would need to be put at, though, without actually having a way to trying some matches with these new numbers and changes.

Those types of builds would also be completely inflexible with not utility, though.

~Z

Neo-LD · Jun 10, 2007, 04:33 AM // 04:33

1) As others have said, theres just way too much information here. No one has the willpower or desire to wade through all of that.

2) You are trying to rebalance the game by fixing every single skill, one at a time, to try and make absolutely every one playable. You actually did a fairly decent job at it, but the pitfall is that the whole method is naive. If your goal is for competitive play to flourish, there some skills that you just dont want to promote (read: spirits, passive abilities, etc).

3) Theres too much emphasis on flavor and "making sense," and in some places of your solution, that is subracting from the greater good of the game.

4)

Quote:

I’m trying to create a clear separation between the roles each Monk should be playing.

Fundamentally bad idea. Guild Wars is much more interesting, rewarding, and competitive, if all monks in general (or "both monks in a gvg team") can employ all of their defensive tools, not just half.

Zuranthium · Jun 10, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

2) You are trying to rebalance the game by fixing every single skill, one at a time, to try and make absolutely every one playable. You actually did a fairly decent job at it, but the pitfall is that the whole method is naive. If your goal is for competitive play to flourish, there some skills that you just dont want to promote (read: spirits, passive abilities, etc).

Comments like that are pretty disheartening (well, actually, you sorta did give me a compliment so....*hug*). You really think there's absolutely no way to balance spirits? I thought I made a pretty damn good run at a solution...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Guild Wars is much more interesting, rewarding, and competitive, if all monks in general (or "both monks in a gvg team") can employ all of their defensive tools, not just half.

The tools of each monk would just change a bit, *shrug*. That "not just half" thing really isn't true anyway because Prot monks don't bring more than one Healing Prayers spell anyway.

If we were able to see the number of times in a match that both monks RoF someone at the same time and only 1 RoF takes effect...well, I think it would be a fairly decent number. The Healing monk having Orison instead of RoF would most likely be a little more efficient overall.

ALSO...before the GOLE nerf, a popular Asian Monk backline was Healer's Boon and Shield of Deflection. That fits perfectly into what I am talking about when I say the function of each monk should separate a little bit.

Then of course with the Divine Favor skills improving, you have the possibility of true "hybrid" monks through that method.

~Z

TheOneMephisto · Jun 10, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

However you change it, the 1/4 second cast is important. We should be seeing a few playable 1/4 sec removals in the Monk line and it fits perfectly with BL.

Maybe 1/2 sec or something. However, it’s already a really powerful skill. It’s like a buffed dismiss that always heals and has the side effect of an automatic holy veil when you use it, it seems a little TOO powerful on 1/4 cast. I mean, it would already be a really really strong skill with my proposed changes, 1/4 would be too much. Maybe only make it a 1/4sec cast if the target is hexed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Hmm, how is it too much of a buff exactly? It's not really that efficient. It would just be there when you need the quick cast. The bottom line is that it's silly for one skill to be SO much better than the other...which certainly the case with Orison vs. RoF.

As I’ve said, the reason that RoF is used over Orison is because RoF is just so much more versatile. Healing monks just aren’t good, because there aren’t any interesting effects in healing. It’s all red-bars-go-up gameplay, which simply doesn’t reward skill as much. You can’t suddenly make 5 energy count for more than 5 energy, because it will only heal for 5 energy’s worth. In prot, you can make that energy really count, as the amount of damage they prevent goes up with player skill. Pure healing simply isn’t as good for the game and isn’t as interesting because all it can really do is heal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

That's a perfect suggestion! Only remove 2 conditions at a spec of 12 or higher. Makes sure that a Heal-based Monk does not use it.

No. Only let it remove 2 conditions at 13 or up. I don’t want to see this skill on non-monks on any type any time, it’s already decent when removing 1 condition. Every prot monk is going to have 13 or higher prot, so it shouldn’t affect them at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

It saw less play immediately after it was nerfed. Remember, it used to be 1/4 cast and 10 second recharge. Which, yeah, was too powerful. Thinking about it more, I would actually definitely rather see it go back to 1/4 cast time and have a longer recharge, as that makes it more versatile and not just a R/P/S skill.

The one second cast is needed so that it’s interruptible. You need to be able to force the other team to either lose a character so that he can go back and spam this or risk being interrupted against heavy conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Whatever the change needs to be, Healing monks should not be using RoF. They should be using the heals that are needed for the correct situation. The skill in playing a Healing monk would become not overhealing and knowing exactly when and what spell to use. The same as Prot monks, as they too need to know exactly when to use their prot and how to scan the battlefield, but it's two separate functions that each character is serving.

Pure heal monks don't have to be boring at all, for the reason I stated. It's just two different things, playing Healing or Prot. A true hybrid monk would be Divine Favor/Protection based. The strength of your prot wouldn't be as good as a pure prot monk, but you'd have a Divine Favor Elite that is better at healing than someone you'd find in the Prot line.

As I’ve said, healing monks aren’t interesting. Basically, the skills required for each are like this:

Healing monks: Be able to watch red bars. Know how much red bar each skill fills up. Know the conditions on your skills (word, dwayna’s).

Prot monks: Be able to watch enemy warrior’s and casters. Be able to preemptively place prots on warrior targets. Be able to see spikes and convergences. Be able to keep up with aggressive warrior switching. Be able to recognize prime targets based on positioning. Be able to get your energy’s worth out of each skill.

Guess which one rewards skills more? I understand that you want a heal monk/prot monk meta, but the simple fact is that the prot monk takes so much more skill and is so much better for the game.

And one more thing, how come you only think that monks can use one line effectively? A prot/DF hybrid wouldn’t be as strong as a pure prot? Characters can utilize 2 lines at MAX efficiency, and 3 lines at decent efficiency FYI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

It already has a 20 second recharge.

I know that it has a 20 sec recharge. However, if you implement my change, you would be able to precast it, let it recharge, have the pet hit the KD’d target, then instantly cast it again at the beginning of battles. My thing is just insurance to prevent that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

What do they do against spread hexes? Ruins the effect...

Very aggressive removal along with a secondary spike skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Errm...you'd run this AND D-shot. Bar would be...D-Shot, Pet shout, Maurader's Shot, Enraged Lunge, Determined Shot (e-management for the combo), comfort, charm animal, rez.

And unless I missed something, enraged takes 3 other BM skills to work at full capacity. You’ve got… enraged and pet shout. You need 2 others. I think that you actually nerfed BM bars by buffing bestial/tiger’s. I remember that we actually used to run enraged bars in TA by forcing bestial to recharge comfort and charm, making it so that we only needed enraged, bestial, comfort, and charm to get full damage on enraged. Running bars like:

Enraged, bestial, charm, comfort, shout, dshot, utility, res.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Obviously comes down to timing Shames/Diversions properly with your Warrior's attack chain. It's all about the proper team build. Staggering Blow in general at a 3 second recharge means they have to spent a good amount of energy keeping their melee free of weakness when this kind of character starts linebacking as well.

The real question is what kind of warrior bar do you want to run that is worth all the effort that you’re using to support this staggering warrior? What kind of elite do you want to run on your hammer warrior that badly? And why don’t you simply use Bash->crushing->thrill or something for an energy-based combo that leaves your elite free. Staggering->heavy? Just… isn’t that impressive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

For the cost of taking all of your adrenaline and costing energy.

Still, you’re pushing shove warriors pretty hard. If he can get the energy for it, it’s going to be a guy teleporting around every 20 seconds dealing out not only unconditional backbreakers, but also pretty massive solo-spikes along with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Skills like this shouldn't BE removable. They are so completely necessary for those particular character builds to function that they NEED to be changed in that manner. Does a Warrior randomly of a chance of doing "X" less damage with their weapon or of Rush randomly ending after a few seconds?

So it’s basically, I cast this at the beginning of battle and it will then never, ever end? The enchant part is just so there’s the possibility of removal, in reality, almost noone will bother removing a not-amazing, cheap, easy to put on enchantment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

It wouldn't last long enough to be worth it on a warrior. In terms of the actually effect, it would just be as if the ability caused you to go into "Dash" whenever you start an attack on someone. An Elite movement stance that doesn't actually let you run somewhere faster when needed for that purpose (but has the extra crit chance to make up for it).

It’s got a fixed 20 sec duration. Unless you changed the duration and I didn’t notice it? And it would be pretty powerful as a frenzy-cancel on flagstand warriors, especially in combination with bull’s strike. You could even pull some pretty fancy tricks with this, like attacking people in a ladder to easily and quickly move to the enemy backline and back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Signets are 0 energy "shrug". I don't see the problem.

I was just wondering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

If we were able to see the number of times in a match that both monks RoF someone at the same time and only 1 RoF takes effect...well, I think it would be a fairly decent number. The Healing monk having Orison instead of RoF would most likely be a little more efficient overall.

And in reality, heal monks would still bring RoF simply because the effect of RoF is so much more versatile than anything heal monks have to offer. The use of hybrids isn’t due to healing not being strong enough, it’s due to healing not scaling with skill and not being versatile enough.

Dzan · Jun 10, 2007, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Triple Chop
As others have said, think of the conjures. Conjure + OoP + triple->crit->prot would be a sick solo-spike.

Doesn't OoP require physical, and conjure Elemental? They wouldnt stack in that case.

It's still broken with Conjure alone though. Dismember-> Triple-> Critical all with Conjure is gee gee.

Narcism · Jun 10, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Here's a long post asking why you do things:

Why do you suggest buffs to skills that already see play? (but not necessarily good, see Orison) Mediocre players need (basic) skills too.
Why do you suggest buffs to good skills?

You need to understand that some skills need to exist in their current form, not only for PvPers, but for younger/less-experienced players... (buffing Orison?)

"1.) PBAOE spells (Aftershock, Inferno, etc.) should NOT have an entire extra second of after-cast time as compared to normal spel"

Did you take a step back and understand why these have 1.75 aftercast?

moriz · Jun 10, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

blessed light should do this:

10e, 1/4 cast, 5 recharge

target ally is healed for 10....94 health and remove 1 hex and 1 condition. if a hex is not removed, you gain 5 energy.

the other variation, which is 5e cast but lose 5 energy for removing a hex, is just a tad too powerful. this method, while seemingly giving you the same end result, does make the player make a pretty hefty initial energy investment, and removes the possibility of using low energy set to counteract the energy loss.

my vision for blessed light is a bar compression tool similar to natural stride and crippling slash. the only way for it to be a viable elite is if it can do the job of a couple skills by itself.

Zuranthium · Jun 10, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Healing monks: Be able to watch red bars. Know how much red bar each skill fills up. Know the conditions on your skills (word, dwayna’s).

Prot monks: Be able to watch enemy warrior’s and casters. Be able to preemptively place prots on warrior targets. Be able to see spikes and convergences. Be able to keep up with aggressive warrior switching. Be able to recognize prime targets based on positioning. Be able to get your energy’s worth out of each skill.

Guess which one rewards skills more? I understand that you want a heal monk/prot monk meta, but the simple fact is that the prot monk takes so much more skill and is so much better for the game.

That's not an accurate assessment at all. Both types of monks need to be watching what is going on. If your Healing monk is only watching red bars, he's going to be overhealing a lot because he doesn't know in what manner a certain character is taking damage. The character needs to be as efficient as you possible with the heals and know how to time them correctly. Plus, a Healing Monk would still have Spirit Bond so it's not like they aren't doing any pre-proting.

Each monk is still watching the battlefield in the same way and serving the same goal, it's just different functions...one monk makes red bars go up, stops spikes, and has limited removal...the other monk prevents red bars from going down and has deep removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

No. Only let it remove 2 conditions at 13 or up. I don’t want to see this skill on non-monks on any type any time, it’s already decent when removing 1 condition. Every prot monk is going to have 13 or higher prot, so it shouldn’t affect them at all.

If a non-monk is going to go all the way up to 12, they deserve to get the bonus. That's a huge dedication into the attribute. Not EVERY Prot monk would run with 13/14 either...I've always run RC/Divert Hexes at 12.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Extinguish

The one second cast is needed so that it’s interruptible. You need to be able to force the other team to either lose a character so that he can go back and spam this or risk being interrupted against heavy conditions.

Errr...but that's exactly point. It's too R/P/S and only really effective against heavy conditions. It shouldn't be spammable, but flexible.

Quote:

And one more thing, how come you only think that monks can use one line effectively? A prot/DF hybrid wouldn’t be as strong as a pure prot? Characters can utilize 2 lines at MAX efficiency, and 3 lines at decent efficiency FYI.

Errm, I don't. I've said all along a Prot monk would still spec into Healing for GoH and a Healing Monk would still spec into Prot for Spirit Bond plus maybe something else.

Quote:

Bestial Mauling

I know that it has a 20 sec recharge. However, if you implement my change, you would be able to precast it, let it recharge, have the pet hit the KD’d target, then instantly cast it again at the beginning of battles. My thing is just insurance to prevent that.

Oh, no...pet attacks with a timer would never start recharging until the attack actually hits.

Quote:

*Me* Errm...you'd run this AND D-shot. Bar would be...D-Shot, Pet shout, Maurader's Shot, Enraged Lunge, Determined Shot (e-management for the combo), comfort, charm animal, rez.

And unless I missed something, enraged takes 3 other BM skills to work at full capacity. You’ve got… enraged and pet shout. You need 2 others. I think that you actually nerfed BM bars by buffing bestial/tiger’s.

Maurader's Shot causes all of your non-attack skills to recharge for 5 seconds. Which means when you use it, Comfort + Charm Animal become disabled and Enraged Lunge is then is at maximum potential.

Quote:

The real question is what kind of warrior bar do you want to run that is worth all the effort that you’re using to support this staggering warrior? What kind of elite do you want to run on your hammer warrior that badly? And why don’t you simply use Bash->crushing->thrill or something for an energy-based combo that leaves your elite free. Staggering->heavy? Just… isn’t that impressive.

Maybe you don't want an energy based combo. Obviously the skill is currently retarded, though, and several possible Warrior builds are being left in the abyss. Something that the skill might need to be playable is a 1 second activation. Same thing for Forceful Blow. OR, maybe Heavy Blow itself needs the 1 second activation. Thoughts?

Quote:

Still, you’re pushing shove warriors pretty hard. If he can get the energy for it, it’s going to be a guy teleporting around every 20 seconds dealing out not only unconditional backbreakers, but also pretty massive solo-spikes along with them.

It would definitely be High Risk/High Reward. Miss your Mokele Smash and you're screwed. A couple of the things on the bar in total might need to be tweaked. But, as always, the point is to create new, different characters that are equally viable to current builds.

Quote:

So it’s basically, I cast this at the beginning of battle and it will then never, ever end? The enchant part is just so there’s the possibility of removal, in reality, almost noone will bother removing a not-amazing, cheap, easy to put on enchantment.

Well, you don't cast it because it's not a spell.

It ends if you don't get a critical hit within the required amount of time. But, again, that's simply what these abilities need to be functional.

Quote:

Way of the Assassin

It’s got a fixed 20 sec duration. Unless you changed the duration and I didn’t notice it?

No, the duration has always been 5 + (Attribute Rank * 2). I made sure on a LOT of abilities I changed that it only works with the correct amount of spec into the Attribute.

Quote:

And in reality, heal monks would still bring RoF simply because the effect of RoF is so much more versatile than anything heal monks have to offer.

Not if RoF isn't giving enough of a return at the lower-specced Prot levels for it to be worthwhile over Orison.

--------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Surprised to not see decapitate on the list.

I think it could become playable through other changes I proposed.

Quote:

Perma speed boost for touch ranger and much more powerful whirling defense damage. Along with vamp bite/touch, this will make PvE'rs cry even more about a touch ranger nerf ^_^

Screw the whiners! I wouldn't bring Whirling Defense on that bar, though. It would be:

Vamp Touch, Vamp Bite, Plague Touch, OoB, Throw Dirt, Dodge, Zojun's Haste, Rez.

--------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

blessed light should do this:

10e, 1/4 cast, 5 recharge

target ally is healed for 10....94 health and remove 1 hex and 1 condition. if a hex is not removed, you gain 5 energy.

Then it's not efficient enough as hex removal either (especially since the short recharge combines less favorably with Deny Hexes), which breaks the supposed versatility. Tricky skill.

-------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcism

Here's a long post asking why you do things:

Why do you suggest buffs to skills that already see play?
Why do you suggest buffs to good skills?

Such as? You're making blanket statements without addressing any specific idea. Anything in here that sees play I only suggested a minor buff to. Like Ice Spikes maybe? I said it should be doing about 6 more damage simply to put it in sync with other similar skills from the line. It's not anything major that would change how anybody uses the skill...just a tiny tweak to give it a certain line a more exacting structure/scale.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcism

You need to understand that some skills need to exist in their current form, not only for PvPers, but for younger/less-experienced players...

Such as? I don't see any skill I've changed that would make it more confusing or less useful for a new player. More of the opposite actually...

Quote:

1.) PBAOE spells (Aftershock, Inferno, etc.) should NOT have an entire extra second of after-cast time as compared to normal spel"

Did you take a step back and understand why these have 1.75 aftercast?

To prevent mass-PBAOE spikes, obviously. But, because of that, they are sucky to actually use by themselves. If those build types actually did become a problem, I'm sure there's some other kind of limiting factor that could be put into place to prevent spike teams. A happy medium needs to be found. Moreover, as I originally stated on the first page...this thread is about IDEAS. It's about providing the tools for more character builds to spring up, to have so much diversity that the meta-game is constantly discovering a new facet. Some of my ideas may not be exactly the best in their proto-forms! Which is why everyone needs to not be like "OMFG, that's way too powerful...retardedz!!!" Suggest a different change if you see a too-powerful combination. The point is that we all ARE indeed thinking constantly about the "New", the "Different", the "Creative".

~Z

Narcism · Jun 10, 2007, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcism

Here's a long post asking why you do things:

Why do you suggest buffs to skills that already see play? (but not necessarily good, see Orison) Mediocre players need (basic) skills too.
Why do you suggest buffs to good skills?

You need to understand that some skills need to exist in their current form, not only for PvPers, but for younger/less-experienced players... (buffing Orison?)

"1.) PBAOE spells (Aftershock, Inferno, etc.) should NOT have an entire extra second of after-cast time as compared to normal spel"

Did you take a step back and understand why these have 1.75 aftercast?

Good skills that see pvp play you decided to buff to make them better?:

Divine Spirit
Signet of Devotion
Words of Comfort
Heal as One
Whirling Defense
Barbed Trap
Flame Trap
Sprint
Sever Artery
”You’re All Alone!”
Exhausting Assault
Shadow Prison
Shadow Refuge
Bloodsong
Shadowsong
Savannah Heat
Searing Heat / Teinai's Heat
Avatar of Melandru
Empathy
Energy Surge
Illusionary Weaponry
Feedback
Expel Hexes
Insidious Parasite
Animate everything you emtnioned
Barbed Spear
Cruel Spear
Remedy Signet

Good skills that see pve play you decided to buff to make them better?:

Healing Breeze
Mending
Orison of Healing
Shield of Judgement.. perma SoJ?
Purge Conditions
Whirling Defense
Barbed Trap
Flame Trap
Cyclone Axe
Penetrating Blow / Penetrating Chop
Triple Chop
Charging Strike
Dolyak Signet
Endure Pain
Hundred Blades
Galrath Slash / Silverwing Slash
Sever Artery
Shadow Refuge
Bloodsong
Sandstorm
Sliver Armor
Firestorm
Savannah Heat
Avatar of Balthazar
Backfire
Empathy
Ancestor's Visage / Sympathetic Visage
Arcane Echo
Animate everything you emtnioned

Skills you decided to change for some reason that were okay skills but for some reason, personally bothered you enough to change them:

Dwayna's Kiss
Restful Breeze
Convert Hexes
Deny Hexes
Healing Touch
Dismiss Condition
Guardian
Mend Ailment/Condition
Zealous Benediction
Crippling Shot
Penetrating Attack / Sundering Attack
Shove (some reason decided that the Shove/Crushing bar should never be played)
Displacement
Physical Resistance

a) You throw around 1/4 cast times like they don't mean a thing.

Note: Lion’s Comfort "Decrease the adrenaline cost to 4, change the conditionality to “if you use a Signet in the next 10 seconds it takes twice as long to recharge”, and have the skill be totally Strength based, not half Tactics."

You do realize that a reason it has the tactics clause, is so you aren't 100% effective as a Strength/Weapon warrior.. right?

Your change to Death's Charge (Drop the recharge to 20 seconds.) Would make every pvp warrior in the game a W/A.

Signet of Malice, see Death's Charge.

Summary:

There's more aspects to skill balancing then, what your personal opinion is, and PvP options.

Cass · Jun 10, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

This huge compilation (+1 for effort) is 90% buffs, and not minor ones. Strangely, many of them are on skills that see frequent use and are in fact not weak. I see some power creep here.

The post above features a long list, not all of which I agree with, but certainly with the likes of Shadow Prison, Forked Arrow, Augury of Death and Insidious. Sure, perhaps not in GvG, but there is other pvp too (i mean HA here).

Also, the cutting of cast times is ridiculous. Interrupts require skill and a steep investment in slots to pull off reliably and decisively and you just made interrupting much less feasible by candycoating loads of spells with uncatchable cast times. Why?

Zuranthium · Jun 10, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Although I'm going to answer all of that, Narc, what you just did doesn't really help as it addresses the skill changes as if they were put into the current meta and NOT as if they were changed in addition to other changes I made as well. You also did not describe how any of the skills would be overpowered, except for two skills. If something is just "okay" (in comparison to other options) it can stand to be improved, no exceptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcism

Good skills that see pvp play you decided to buff to make them better?

Divine Spirit - Saw limited play when Deny was changed and rarely sees play now. It's not great as is
Signet of Devotion - The change actually makes it so you are getting less healing out of it over time...changed specs is to make it synergize better with Deny
Words of Comfort - Saw some play in the Nightfall-only tourney and none since then
Heal as One - Gets absolutely no play in GvG at all.
Whirling Defense - Again, sees play because of NR/Tranq. My change was just to make slightly more useful/efficint for an actual Trapper character
Barbed Trap - Only sees play because of NR/Tranq, not because people are using an actual Trapper character.
Flame Trap - Has seen very limited play for NR/Tranq...most of them only use Dust/Barbed, however
Sprint - I can go either with this one. A lot of people feel it has been outclassed by other options.
Sever Artery - I haven't seen a single person use this since the Cripslash change
”You’re All Alone!” - Haven't seen anyone use it since the nerf
Exhausting Assault - Was changed to be usable for Mobius bars only...wasn't an actual buff to the skill
Shadow Prison - Did you read the nerfs to other skills?
Shadow Refuge - Haven't seen anyone use it since Feigned came out
Shadowsong - Only sees play in the 8-Rit build
Displacement - ^
Bloodsong - ^ , except for people who just use it as the requiste spirit for Offering of Spirit and not for the actual effect itself
Savannah Heat - Has seen play for HA, not really GvG
Searing Heat / Teinai's Heat - ^
Avatar of Melandru - The nerf to Wearying Strike is a nerf to this
Empathy - Uhh, I haven't seen anyone use this? Do some Eurohex builds include it or something?
Energy Surge - Has been totally replaced by other Mesmer Elites...is not quite good enough by itself anymore
Illusionary Weaponry - Wtf??? Absolutely nobody runs this
Feedback - Haven't seen anyone use this over Drain Enchant at all
Expel Hexes - Depends on what your stance is on Hexes in general. I'm not sure, you haven't told us
Insidious Parasite - I've only seen Reckless/Faint/Price getting play
Animate "Everything" - Only a couple of them get play and only because of the Soul Reaping bonuses, which is nerfed if you read that section
Barbed Spear - Did you read the other Paragon nerfs?
Cruel Spear - ^
Remedy Signet - Have seen a couple people use it and mostly end up dissatisfied

Quote:

Good skills that see pve play you decided to buff to make them better?

***List
List
List***

Irrelevant, as the goal is to make them more playable for GvG. Except for a very select few (Dolyak Signet...c'mon. I was clearly joking if you look at my Why? comment)

Quote:

Skills you decided to change for some reason that were okay skills but for some reason, personally bothered you enough to change them

Dwayna's Kiss - Could become too powerful for builds with lots of enchantments spread across the team, and you'll notice that I buffed those
Restful Breeze - Extremely slight change if you look at where the numbers are now
Convert Hexes - A lot of people feel this should be self-targetable as well? I'm not sure what your beef is here
Deny Hexes - I didn't buff this? Just changed how it interacted with other Divine Favor skills slightly
Healing Touch - Nobody uses this
Dismiss Condition - Part of the re-tooling of the Monk attributes
Guardian - ^
Mend Ailment/Condition - ^
Zealous Benediction - ^
Crippling Shot - Ummm...a lot of top players agree this should be 10 nrg
Penetrating Attack / Sundering Attack - Don't see ANYONE using these at all
Shove (some reason decided that the Shove/Crushing bar should never be played) - ??? No idea what you're talking about. It would absolutely be best for a Hammer Warrior with my changes
Physical Resistance - Haven't seen anyone use this

Quote:

You throw around 1/4 cast times like they don't mean a thing

Again, lacking examples and reasoning? I specifically think there should be some better 1/4 second removals in the game, so that's the point you should be discussing. Anything else that was buffed to a 1/4 second cast is because it's sub-par.

Quote:

Note: Lion’s Comfort "Decrease the adrenaline cost to 4, change the conditionality to “if you use a Signet in the next 10 seconds it takes twice as long to recharge”, and have the skill be totally Strength based, not half Tactics."

You do realize that a reason it has the tactics clause, is so you aren't 100% effective as a Strength/Weapon warrior.. right?

You're NOT 100% effective as a Strength/Warrior with that change. Heal Sig is still much better. Perhaps make Lion's Comfort a 2 sec activation if it really throws the balance off.

Quote:

Your change to Death's Charge (Drop the recharge to 20 seconds.) Would make every pvp warrior in the game a W/A.

Exactly the opposite....I specifically stated that using teleports should drain adrenaline pools. A Shove Hammer Warrior would be the only Warrior build that could effectively use teleports.

Quote:

Signet of Malice

I agree with you on this. I had non-Warrior things in mind when thinking about this one and I can not currently think of a way to make the skill better for those builds without overpowering it for Warriors. I'll remove it.

--------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Also, the cutting of cast times is ridiculous. Interrupts require skill and a steep investment in slots to pull off reliably and decisively and you just made interrupting much less feasible by candycoating loads of spells with uncatchable cast times. Why?

Maybe because the skills I buffed in that manner are weak/sub-par? You need to use specific examples in order to promote discussion on this subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

The post [by Narc] features a long list, not all of which I agree with, but certainly with the likes of Shadow Prison, Forked Arrow, Augury of Death and Insidious. Sure, perhaps not in GvG, but there is other pvp too (i mean HA here).

Prison/Insidious I already talk about above. Augury didn't really get a buff, it's more of a "bug" fix. Forked Arrow...is this dominating HA or something? I stop caring about HA some time ago, sorry.

~Z

Narcism · Jun 10, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

I'll be honest and say I didn't see (GvG) in the title.
I just thought it was silly you were buffing skills greatly used in other pvp gameplay types? If you wanted ArenaNet to truly value the changes, I'd try to keep other gameplay types in mind.

Divine Spirit - Saw limited play when Deny was changed and rarely sees play now. It's not great as is Saw more play then you think.
Signet of Devotion - The change actually makes it so you are getting less healing out of it over time...changed specs is to make it synergize better with Deny Less healing over time doesn't give enough justification. Giving Meteor Shower a 1/4 second cast time and adding 6 seconds to the recharge time makes it do less damage over time.
Words of Comfort - Saw some play in the Nightfall-only tourney and none since then Our monk used it daily in GvG
Heal as One - Gets absolutely no play in GvG at all. didn't read post title.. regarding GvG. this gets too much play in HvH to be better just so it can be used in GvG
Whirling Defense - Again, sees play because of NR/Tranq. My change was just to make slightly more useful/efficint for an actual Trapper character It's a long ass stance that makes you invincible ? I don't get it.
Barbed Trap - Only sees play because of NR/Tranq, not because people are using an actual Trapper character. Trap bombsss
Flame Trap - Has seen very limited play for NR/Tranq...most of them only use Dust/Barbed, however Trap bommbs
Sprint - I can go either with this one. A lot of people feel it has been outclassed by other options. I don't.
Sever Artery - I haven't seen a single person use this since the Cripslash change And giving it 3A will help that?
”You’re All Alone!” - Haven't seen anyone use it since the nerf I have, and making it useable on recharge isn't a solution.
Exhausting Assault - Was changed to be usable for Mobius bars only...wasn't an actual buff to the skill so Moebius bars would only need 3 skills? One of which has 1/2 second activation? iirc.
Shadow Prison - Did you read the nerfs to other skills? irrelevant.
Shadow Refuge - Haven't seen anyone use it since Feigned came out Mediocre assassins use it.. this goes back to the buffing high-use, trash skills.
Shadowsong - ^ i was getting smashed by Shadowsong the other day
Displacement - ^ I^
Bloodsong - ^ , except for people who just use it as the requiste spirit for Offering of Spirit and not for the actual effect itself ^
Savannah Heat - Has seen play for HA, not really GvG and HvH
Searing Heat / Teinai's Heat - ^ and HvH
Avatar of Melandru - The nerf to Wearying Strike is a nerf to this melandru also makes you immune to condtions.
Empathy - Uhh, I haven't seen anyone use this? Do some Eurohex builds include it or something? Honk used it.
Energy Surge - Has been totally replaced by other Mesmer Elites...is not quite good enough by itself anymore ?
Illusionary Weaponry - Wtf??? Absolutely nobody runs this Didn't see gvg in title.
Feedback - Haven't seen anyone use this over Drain Enchant at all I have, Honk and several other mesmers.
Expel Hexes - Depends on what your stance is on Hexes in general. I'm not sure, you haven't told us Expel is great, and this makes it amazing.
Insidious Parasite - I've only seen Reckless/Faint/Price getting play RA, didn't see the title.
Animate "Everything" - Only a couple of them get play and only because of the Soul Reaping bonuses, which is nerfed if you read that section didn't see the title, this gets spammed all day in AB
Barbed Spear - Did you read the other Paragon nerfs? doesn't justify making a good skill better
Cruel Spear - ^ ^
Remedy Signet - Have seen a couple people use it and mostly end up dissatisfied ^

Zuranthium · Jun 10, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcism

I am sexy.

The first part of the comment is what you wroted, bolded statements are mine:

Signet of Devotion - Less healing over time doesn't give enough justification. Giving Meteor Shower a 1/4 second cast time and adding 6 seconds to the recharge time makes it do less damage over time. That's so completely unrelated and also over-the-top. People use SoD because it's free health.

Words of Comfort - Our monk used it daily in GvG I doubt he would with the current spec in light of other changes I proposed. Remember, you have to look at everything I wrote for the Healing Monk in general.

Heal as One - didn't read post title.. regarding GvG. this gets too much play in HvH to be better just so it can be used in GvG. HvH can absoluely not be used as an argument for anything. Morever, it's not really much of a buff either. It's just a change so that you still get the healing if your monk LoD's or heals you in another way that would put you above 75% but still less-than-full.

Barbed Trap / Flame Trap - Trap bombsss Not effective enough, imo

Sever Artery - And giving it 3A will help that? Certainly, in addition to other changes that would make other Sword Warrior bars equal in power to what a Cripslash can do

"You’re All Alone!” - making it useable on recharge isn't a solution. Did you notice that I cut the range in half, though???

Exhausting Assault - so Moebius bars would only need 3 skills? One of which has 1/2 second activation? iirc. No, you still need an off-hand to get to Moebius

Shadow Prison - irrelevant. Umm, how? This build is only overpowered, on certain maps, because of Recall. With that changed PLUS a change to the spiking power of Black Lotus Strike, I really don't see how someone can say this skill would still be worth it

Shadow Refuge - Mediocre assassins use it.. this goes back to the buffing high-use, trash skills. It doesn't need to be a trash skill. Why do you desire that?

Shadowsong - i was getting smashed by Shadowsong the other day So? Did you see my other changes to Spirits in general?

Savannah Heat / Searing Heat / Tenai's Heat - HvH Again, screw that.

Avatar of Melandru - melandru also makes you immune to condtions. Yes, Elites do lots of fun things, huh? Not overpowered on its own, however. If Wearying Strike didn't exist this would never see play. Its power is greatly helped by how well it synerizes with that skill.

Empathy - Honk used it. That's fun. I probably would too. But considering the proposed nerf to PANIC that is obviously used for that build, I really don't think it hurts to buff this just a little.

Energy Surge - ? Ermm? It's clearly outclassed by other Mesmer Elites. Agree/Disagree?

Feedback - Honk and several other mesmers used it. Would they still?

Expel Hexes - Expel is great, and this makes it amazing. It's great on a Paragon. With the nerfs to how much energy you can get from WY/GFTE, they wouldn't be able to support this as well

Barbed Spear - doesn't justify making a good skill better How so? If you nerf a lot of the other things Paragons can do, what do they have left?

Cruel Spear - ^ ^

~Z

Narcism · Jun 10, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

"Exhausting Assault - so Moebius bars would only need 3 skills? One of which has 1/2 second activation? iirc. No, you still need an off-hand to get to Moebius"

Moebius requires a dual.

"Shadow Refuge - Mediocre assassins use it.. this goes back to the buffing high-use, trash skills. It doesn't need to be a trash skill. Why do you desire that?"

That's where you and I differ. My life is complete if the skill sees play. Your life is complete if you determine that it is good. That's why I think Orison is fine (Across the game) and shadow refuge is fine (across the game)

Just the way I think Mending, Power Attack, Dolyak Signet, Riposte/Deadly Riposte, Penetrating Attack are fine.