Curse

Seamus Finn · Jul 30, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Shield of Deflection serves the same purpose as Spirit Bond in every situation that you'd use it, so there's no point in running both. Divine Spirit is used in conjunction with Signet of Devotion to power Deny Hexes. If you don't want to use Deny Hexes you can ditch that infrastructure to get a slot back (Signet of Devotion turns into Gift of Health, Deny into Veil usually). The combination gives you the best Prot elite as well as the best raw removal you can afford against hex teams. That covers, well, every offense you'll run into in a competitive match. ?

I can't totally agree with this. I mean, empirically speaking, you were pretty much right with this past monthly, but how about a straight up caster spike? The armor bonus would be nearly as useful as a Spirit Bond. I was actually surprised that no one put something together for the tourney. Given the popular builds it could have take a lot of people by surprise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Erm, damage coming from the physicals with some assists from midline has been the way Guild Wars has played since the beginning. It's not exactly a new thing.

In a skeletal sense, yes. But I don't recall the midline as being as anemic offensively and the two frontliners so topheavy on offense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Which ones? I'm perfectly happy to split with a Conjure Warrior, as is every other top team I've played against..

Only when being accompanied by your runner or you are collapsing with something else just to stomp someone already in your base. Unless I have missed a specific conjure bar, they have no self-sustainability at all. In those two circumstances I can agree with the statement. Not noting how limited that actually is is kind of deceiving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Because single points of failure are bad design.

SoD or Blind aren't the only two answers to melee shutdown in a build. You still have other prots on monks, and though not as "pinpointed" all the other layers of defense people bring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You just nailed it. The top teams in tournament play all run Aegis, Ward Melee, Blind, and SoD because we are bad.

Well if you insist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

But that's assuming you're trying to do more on top of making sure that BSurge and Ward are used properly. You're proposing not using those skills properly at all, and turning into an Orb spammer...which is such a horrendous character that you'll have a hard time convincing me to talk about it seriously at all. Lightning Orb is the worst use of energy on that character's bar. Lightning Strike would be even worse. Why would you prioritize those skills over the ones that win you games?

Those skills don't "win you the games" so much as "keep you from losing until your derish wins you the game." And to that extent, I agree, that Bsurge does that VERY well for all the reasons you mention. To call my character an "orb spammer" is misleading. I suggest that you allow the ele to play way more offensively, but that isn't saying you don't hit the blinds you have to. Of course, this is all in hopes of making a build that might accomplish somethign before 20 minutes. I realize it isn't all that popular a stance to take though.

Of special note, Under air attunement with GoLE up, orb is actually quite nice. You can fake it as much as you like, and when you finally cast you gain 6 energy since the orb was free. If you orbed twice under Gole you got two free orbs and 7 energy. You can lay your ward now and it cost you 3. Not terrible energy spending...

Ensign · Jul 30, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I can't totally agree with this. I mean, empirically speaking, you were pretty much right with this past monthly, but how about a straight up caster spike?

I don't know why Rit Spike didn't have a presence in the monthly. If I had to guess, it would be lack of practice on the GvG version since it's relatively new. That build is pretty silly and clean spikes people with 1s casts.

Any other sort of caster spike is pretty much irrelevant now as midlines are so interrupt heavy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

In a skeletal sense, yes. But I don't recall the midline as being as anemic offensively and the two frontliners so topheavy on offense.

Mesmer damage has been trending downwards since the release of Nightfall. That was pretty much the only significant source of damage on your midline pre-Nightfall, so it shouldn't be any sort of surprising that it's nothing but physical damage now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Unless I have missed a specific conjure bar, they have no self-sustainability at all.

Why is that relevant? What situation are you envisioning in which you would want to split off a solitary Warrior?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Those skills don't "win you the games" so much as "keep you from losing until your derish wins you the game."

They present obstacles that the other team must deal with. They win games if you allow yourself to look at the game with sufficient abstraction that anything that isn't a raw damage skill can win the game. The presence or lack thereof of those two skills can and does decide games between otherwise evenly matched teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Of course, this is all in hopes of making a build that might accomplish somethign before 20 minutes. I realize it isn't all that popular a stance to take though.

Of course teams try to accomplish something before 20 minutes. They try to pick off NPCs with their Ranger, or put 3 guys in the base; they'll push flags and try to gain ground; they spike when the Ward is down or if they manage to land a lucky Diversion. When you get a window to do something in, you try and capitalize, and that usually involves throwing an Orb at a Warrior's target. Pitched battles at the flagstand without any action for 20 minutes are fairly rare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Not terrible energy spending...

It's terrible energy spending unless those Orbs were being tossed at a Warrior's target during a hole in their defense. Random Orbs don't do anything against a team with an intact defense, it gets cleaned up by the party heals incidentally and all you've done is wasted your energy. I have nothing against assisting with Orb whenever possible. However outside of those assists, using your blind more aggressively consistently results in more pressure on the other team. When a team is breaking all of their defensive infrastructure needs to turn inward to keep the team alive, and that means all of the cleaning that would otherwise be taking care of the blind stops coming. Blind is absolutely amazing when it starts to last for duration, and if their Warriors can't do anything the rest of your offense can go all-in on forcing the break.

DreamWind · Jul 31, 2007, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Since when has an air ele been an effective pressure character?

It has always been a defensive/toolbox character with a spike skill or two thrown in. I honestly don't remember it being anything else, but I'd like to hear if so. To me its a situation where I suppose its possible to pressure with it, but there are more effective options.

I also resent the theory that the worst player plays ele...I think the skill requirement to play the thing properly isn't given near enough credit.

Vermilion · Jul 31, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I also resent the theory that the worst player plays ele...I think the skill requirement to play the thing properly isn't given near enough credit.

Sure it does. But where else would you put your worse player?

Mesmer? Monk? Warrior? Split Char? epic lulz.

Edit - Touche!

DreamWind · Jul 31, 2007, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion

Mesmer? Monk? Warrior? Split Char? epic lulz.

Any post Prophecies class obv.

Thom Bangalter · Jul 31, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Since when has an air ele been an effective pressure character?

It has always been a defensive/toolbox character with a spike skill or two thrown in. I honestly don't remember it being anything else, but I'd like to hear if so. To me its a situation where I suppose its possible to pressure with it, but there are more effective options.

I also resent the theory that the worst player plays ele...I think the skill requirement to play the thing properly isn't given near enough credit.

its been a pressure character ever since gale spam won games.

I completely agree with everything ensign says. A mesmer is going to camp you all game, and the last time I played bsurge I got e-denied, my enchantment stripped, and two guys camped me with interrupts whenever I tried to get ward up. Its a lot of micro to get the ward up alone (blind ranger, swap to fast cast, stay out of mes range or gale him or wait until he's midcast on something, cancel) not to mention getting the blind off when needed. but, pretty sure bsurge+warrior at vod>guild lord, and that's why he's a valuable character along with every other reason mentioned.

Greedy Gus · Jul 31, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Since when has an air ele been an effective pressure character?

It has always been a defensive/toolbox character with a spike skill or two thrown in. I honestly don't remember it being anything else, but I'd like to hear if so. To me its a situation where I suppose its possible to pressure with it, but there are more effective options.

When bsurge was introduced, there were actually a fair amount of teams running guys who were primarily pumping out lorb/strike/bsurge/gale around with attunement up, with defensive utility of blinding melee to disrupt spikes, and maybe a draw or HP. This was more effective in smaller than 8v8, so either when you've split and drew some of their team off, or when your bsurge is on the split.

Best example would likely be in QQ's heyday after NF, with their balanced split build that so many people copied, as well as their dual bsurge splits, etc.

DreamWind · Aug 01, 2007, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

its been a pressure character ever since gale spam won games.

Fair enough.

Dzan · Aug 01, 2007, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion

Sure it does. But where else would you put your worse player?

Mesmer? Monk? Warrior? Split Char? epic lulz.

Edit - Touche!

So Ensign and Torsen are the worst players in their guilds?

Vermilion · Aug 01, 2007, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

So Ensign and Torsen are the worst players in their guilds?

Well I don't think iQ got where they did by having 1-2 people who were just plain bad at the game. <.<

I believe I said the midline ele slot can be played skillfully, (like every class?) but a bad player can be less of a weak link on that char than on the others I mentioned.

Sad, I don't even know who the second guy is.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Aug 01, 2007, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Torsen played for Tag, he is quite good.

Ensign · Aug 01, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Since when has an air ele been an effective pressure character?

In fairness it was an OK pressure character right after Nightfall came out. Rangers were not part of the metagame at all back then, and the Mesmers of the time were a lot more proactive with lots of DDs and Gales to blow through defense. Now defenses stick better without those tools available, and the disruptive metagame has turned largely into interrupt battles. Interrupts destroy offensive casters something fierce.

I guess the best way to put it is that an offensive Ele is a luxury that you get to run when your opponents will let you get away with it. If they have a decent amount of disruption, you're pushed back into your most durable and efficient skills, which are universally defensive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I also resent the theory that the worst player plays ele...I think the skill requirement to play the thing properly isn't given near enough credit.

They take a phenomenal amount of skill to play correctly, both in raw attention required and the amount of multitasking you have to do. It's also a thankless position without a lot of glory that you get to play under a lot of pressure every time.

There is a lot of merit to the idea that the worst players play Ele, and midline in general though. I have a couple of thoughts on the matter. The general idea is that in most guilds, you probably only have a handful of stable players who show up consistently, with several other guys who rotate and fill in. Most of the time, it seems like the consistent players naturally gravitate to the most consistent, glorious positions on a team, the Warriors and the Monks - which are always in builds - while the people who fill in end up filling in on the characters that change a lot - the various midline templates that fluctuate the most from build to build. All else being equal, the people who play the most in a similar role end up becoming your best players, so it isn't any sort of surprise that when you play against a relatively unknown team, the sexy, consistent positions are filled by the consistent players who have gotten better at the game, while the less sexy and more dynamic positions get filled by guests and occasional players. Along a similar vein, the Monks and melee don't change all that much, playing similar bars in similar roles all the time, while the midline changes pretty radically, both in the composition of an individual bar and the tactics necessary, from week to week. So as far as really refining your gameplay, a midline position is a whole lot harder to get any good at than a front or backline position.

The differences start to level off on more stable teams with regular rosters. There, you have enough consistent players that you aren't swapping your Warriors and Monks around as much, and stronger players end up playing midline out of necessity.

DreamWind · Aug 02, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

They take a phenomenal amount of skill to play correctly, both in raw attention required and the amount of multitasking you have to do. It's also a thankless position without a lot of glory that you get to play under a lot of pressure every time.

The differences start to level off on more stable teams with regular rosters. There, you have enough consistent players that you aren't swapping your Warriors and Monks around as much, and stronger players end up playing midline out of necessity.

Good points. A lot of guilds have their core warriors and monks, but there aren't a lot of core eles. If you are anywhere in the midline you are usually just called a "core midliner" and are expected to be able to play anything there.

Elrodien · Aug 02, 2007, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Very true ^^

Having played a B-Surge ele for my guild many a time, it is a very hard role to play imo. You are constantly searching for threats from enemy melee while making sure you are in range of a spike target whilst at the same time looking for a good place for your wards to go down, while keeping an eye on that mesmer sitting on you with his MoR Diversion spam and Sig of Humility while trying to kite away from the increasingly annoyed melee chars that hate you cause you ruined their adren spike.

It probably is one of the more thankless jobs in a gvg, but it gives you a kind of a perverse pleasure in ruining a warriors day with your blinds.

Dzan · Aug 02, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

Very true ^^

Having played a B-Surge ele for my guild many a time, it is a very hard role to play imo. You are constantly searching for threats from enemy melee while making sure you are in range of a spike target whilst at the same time looking for a good place for your wards to go down, while keeping an eye on that mesmer sitting on you with his MoR Diversion spam and Sig of Humility while trying to kite away from the increasingly annoyed melee chars that hate you cause you ruined their adren spike.

My feelings exactly. It's one of those professions where you want to be using all your skills all the time. I cannot think of how many times I've been asked on vent "why werent you tossing an orb in that spike?" and I'll say "well first I had to push up to Draw your blind and then I had to catch their hammer warrior's spike chain with a Surge to save our monks while you were pushing." It's very funny how you are often expected to cast Draw Conditions on the warriors during spikes but also be tossing a 2 second cast Orb at the exact same time.

Byron · Aug 03, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

I'm not so sure light orb gets enough credit tbh. Seeing DF and KGYU using l-orb as a kind of strategic pressure has almost changed my mind to its effectiveness. A few examples stuck out. When making a push by virtue of key interrupts and consistent physical pressure, the b-surger might switch from blinding to orbing. It looked like they could afford delaying the b-surge if the ward or aegis was going strong. Throwing orbs at soft targets seems like it often draws 10e prots, which could be enough to turn a team from fighting defensively into retreating.

Another was the classic gale-orb, just at the right time. Locking down the prot monk with diversion/shame while galeing the healer during a midliner spike; the typical reaction is for the healer to infuse as soon as he gets up, which is about the time that the l-orb would be hitting. Then, the backline went into a scramble, dumping energy onto the healer because his red bar was low.

Not saying these are for-sure credible offensive strats, just liked pointing them out.

Bowstring Badass · Aug 04, 2007, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Most people use +5 sword/spear with +12 offhands and shields. But if you know you are going down switch to your lowest energy set (more energy when you get ressed

) and they also have +15-1 wands and offhands also known as the oshit sets when the battle is raging and you are running low on energy.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Aug 04, 2007, 08:16 AM // 08:16

So facing multipule trees and playing a bsurge, when in form what do you do as a Bsurge? Your bar is: Bsurge, Lorb, Gale, Ward Melee, Draw, Res Sig, GoLe, Air Attune. When in form what is the best way of using your offense i.e. lorbing targets/bsurging a lot?

In general this is just a question about how to use your bsurge bitch bar offensively?

Thom Bangalter · Aug 04, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

when form is up, make sure ward is up as much as possible. I also like to gale a derv when I see two running for the same target, and then draw off the wearying spam.

Zuranthium · Aug 24, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Unless I have missed a specific conjure bar, they have no self-sustainability at all.

Why is that relevant? What situation are you envisioning in which you would want to split off a solitary Warrior?

This used to be a desirable thing. In the past, at least one Warrior on the team had a Heal Sig, with two of them packing it more often than not. These days the number of Warriors that use a Heal Sig has dropped by at least two-thirds. What that says about how the game has changed comes down to your own feelings. For most everyone I speak with, it's not a good tiding and iQ-ish builds are pretty damn lame...no offense to the able minds that go into making them.

For me, it's more interesting to ask why the Elem build Ensign points out is almost always superior to the one Seamus seems to prefer (if you in fact agree with that claim -- which I do) and what can be done to make the supposedly most-complex aspect of Guild Wars more diverse.

~Z