Curse

Ensign · Jul 19, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Diversion landing .90 seconds after Blackout or Signet of Humility ends is all kinds of better than it landing before Blackout ends. Diversion landing as a player reaches 5 or 10 energy is a lot better than Diversion landing when they're still on 3 or 8. I want it to land as they stand up from a knockdown, not to be sitting on them while they're knocked down. To land at the end of their second spell if they're chaining spells, not during the aftercast of the previous one. I want them to play around Diversion even when I'm not casting it on them.

There are some plays where a fast cast mod would be useful, but those aren't consistent. There are more plays where a fast cast mod is harmful. I always want the recharge. If you have room in your weapon sets for two Dom sets, one with fast cast and one without, and you want to micro the change between each of them to try and hit those plays, more power to you. I personally have enough other things to think about when playing Dom, and the occasional fast cast throws off my timing more often than it helps.

I played a BSurge Ele for the first time in months in GvG today.

A 40/40 Dom set is absolutely essential for hitting BSurge. That shouldn't imply that Diversion is good against BSurge, because it isn't, not unless the other team is really bad and you're allowed to maintain it on someone. It's not the tool you want if you want your Mesmer to hunt BSurge.

aapo · Jul 23, 2007, 03:11 AM // 03:11

What would then be complete weapon sets and swaps for a domination Mesmer?

40/40 set could be changed to 40 recharge, +30 health, 15^50 set
+5 energy, +30 health spear and shield for defensive set?

Anything else? Doesn't using Mantra of Recovery basically dictate which swap is most optimal for that kind of situation?

Ensign · Jul 23, 2007, 10:43 AM // 10:43

dual 15/-1s, shield set, 40/40 set, and something without fast casting (for Dom at least).

If you're using Mantra of Recovery you can drop the recharge mods for something else and end up using some really weird focii.

But that's for the standard Diversion guy, and the standard Diversion guy is bad, so, meh.

Byron · Jul 25, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

The greatness of diverting b-surge is the crippling effect it has on that character. Blinding surge, even though it's only one skill, is half of that midliner's effectiveness. And the other half is draw, gale, maybe a ward.

But, when done right, b-surge is so effective that a backliner is willing and able to maintain a veil on the b-surger all game. And, if the midliner is smart, they'll have the veil covered twice. This makes diverting b-surge almost impossible with the tools a balanced dom mesmer has.

It becomes a play/counter play that results in a large difference in a handling of the situation depending on what level of GvG you are playing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If I wanted to shut down Blinding Surge hard, for instance, I would be using Signet of Humility under MoI, not Diversion.

Why not both? Even without the mantra, it would be easy to time the diversion to hit as the signet wears off. That combo feels like it would be effective for any spammable elite (RC, SoR, etc). At the very least it would be another few seconds of no-elite, (depending on how good the enemy hex removals are) which is another few seconds that your SoH is recharging. I doubt a team would bother maintaining a veil if the b-surge is getting humilified, anyway.

Seamus Finn · Jul 25, 2007, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

The greatness of diverting b-surge is the crippling effect it has on that character. Blinding surge, even though it's only one skill, is half of that midliner's effectiveness. And the other half is draw, gale, maybe a ward.

This is only somewhat true due to the monumental bitch-ness of the current "stand ele." Basically, the ward is insurance for when your aegis goes down, and your blind is insurance against poor protting by your monks. The draw can be there out of necessity, but it is also because neither your ranger nor your mesmer can shut down the opposing teams' bsurge, your rc somehow can't manage the energy to clean teh melee even though it should be impossible for the other side to pressure you at all, and your warriors don't want any self cleaning abilities because their bars are packed with conjures shock and a bunch of attack skills and won't move a half-aggro bubble from the stand without the water ele(third monk) holding their hands. Gale is a legitimately good skill, but the player that has it probably won't use it well(or at all) since he is probably considered the weakest player on the team(besides possibly the flagger) or the build maker wouldn't give him a melee ward when he is already running the best warrior shutdown in the game and the team is already chaining aegis. Don't get me wrong, air eles can be great characters, but I haven't seen anyone slot a good version of the bsurge in quite some time.

Ensign · Jul 25, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

But, when done right, b-surge is so effective that a backliner is willing and able to maintain a veil on the b-surger all game.

What the hell? No, the way you fight Diversion as a BSurge Ele is to not play like utter shit. You don't need Veil, you don't need Hex Breaker, you need to suck less. Diversion against a BSurge means 'hey, you don't cast BSurge for the next few seconds', it shouldn't ever actually disable the skill outside of some freak event from double fast casts or something.

90+% of the time when your BSurge is disabled by Diversion, it's because you screwed up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Why not both?

No reason. If you have Humility Diversion becomes a whole lot better. Same with Blackout, PLeak, or any other Dom effect that you can effectively time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Don't get me wrong, air eles can be great characters, but I haven't seen anyone slot a good version of the bsurge in quite some time.

What would you consider a good version of a BSurge bar? BSurge is the only good skill left in the entire attribute. How is he supposed to be anything but a pile of utility skills?

Seamus Finn · Jul 26, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

What would you consider a good version of a BSurge bar? BSurge is the only good skill left in the entire attribute. How is he supposed to be anything but a pile of utility skills?

The air line actually has pretty good damage given that all defense that is commonly run is meant to shut down melee. Giving the ele bsurge(obviously) orb strike and gale along with sufficient Emanagement is a character that can pressure surprisingly well through disruption and unmitigated damage. Furthermore, in the American meta at least, a bsurge could also be fairly ugly on a split now since warriors are dropping all their splitability and that the mend touch recharge on the ranger is 6 secs and bsurge 5(and you would be far more likely to get recharges than the ranger since few have an efficiency swap for MT). But instead these slots are generally used up by redundant skills. Why run ward melee when you have an elite blind, aegis chain, and possibly even a shield of deflection? If your build NEEDs a draw, I can obviously see putting it on the ele. But basically, when all these types of skills are piled onto the bar along with stuff like convert hexes etc. you have a character that I find pretty useless. An orb on spikes, some excessive defense, and every utility no one else wants to run and half of it is useless in every other game.

But I suppose if the guys playing the warriors are the only ones you think capable of knowing how to pressure the other team, you might want to give them the only damage in the build...

Avarre · Jul 26, 2007, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Don't get me wrong, air eles can be great characters, but I haven't seen anyone slot a good version of the bsurge in quite some time.

So, post what you would consider a 'good version' of the air ele? I'm interested to see this.

Ensign · Jul 27, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

The air line actually has pretty good damage given that all defense that is commonly run is meant to shut down melee. Giving the ele bsurge(obviously) orb strike and gale along with sufficient Emanagement is a character that can pressure surprisingly well through disruption and unmitigated damage.

So you think that putting Lightning Strike on that bar makes him an effective pressure character?

Seamus Finn · Jul 27, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

No, I think that the combination paired with the energy to support the skills makes him an effective pressure character that represents a lot of defense at the same time. The current Bsurges don't have these tools or are hampered by too many un-needed defensive skills, or are just bad and spam blind when they could be orbing something. Caster damage is very potent right now. The 50 damage from the lightning strike every 2-5 seconds doesnt seem like much, but consider that it will hit every time its out, and slips under any prots a target might have(spirit bond). When compared to how hampered the melee will be, swinging at targets in wards under aegis while blind, lightning strike compares all right. Orbing good targets often can also cause unnecessary prots etc. I don't think I have to justify why I think gale is a good skill(the KD is down a second true, but gale was considered THE BEST skill in GW at the time by a lot of people. Even with a 2 second KD a good player can make a lot of plays with it). I am not saying that the air ele is going to equal a warrior in pressure at all(certainly not a warrior that isn't hampered by meta-balanced). But what I am saying is that the air ele's elite is really all he should need for stand defense if he is any good with the skill, and by giving the character the means and mindset of playing offensively he can add some extra dimension to these builds that really don't have it. And if the reasoning against having this skill is because the warrior wants another attack and less utility/splitability or you don't think your build can stand up with "just" aegis and blind...

Ensign · Jul 28, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

So you think that dropping Draw Conditions for Lightning Strike makes it an awesome character?

Seamus Finn · Jul 29, 2007, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Not quite. Just better.

Avarre · Jul 29, 2007, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

When compared to how hampered the melee will be, swinging at targets in wards under aegis while blind, lightning strike compares all right.

So considering Aegis can be shut down fairly easily, you prefer feeding Lightning Strikes to the enemy LoD heals over removing blind from your warriors continually?

Ensign · Jul 29, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

You throw Orbs in two situations. First, when your Warriors are going to unload adrenaline on a target and you want to assist (though against stronger teams, you generally don't use it even then because of how expensive and vulnerable it is). Second, when the other team is routing and their Warriors are dead (if their Warriors are still alive, Blinding Surge on their Warriors provides more net pressure for your team than throwing Orbs). Sometimes you'll get a Frenzy machine without Prot that you can throw an Orb at, but outside of rare situations like that throwing an Orb randomly is an enormous waste of energy.

Lightning Strike is worse than Lightning Orb for those jobs in every way. In what situation does Lightning Strike shine? Why do I want to invest energy in that instead of another blind or ward, which have orders of magnitude more effect on the game? Why do I want to put that skill on my bar at all?

Seamus Finn · Jul 29, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

So considering Aegis can be shut down fairly easily, you prefer feeding Lightning Strikes to the enemy LoD heals over removing blind from your warriors continually?

These quotes for me are like the guys who post things like, "You have dshot and diversion in your build, why are you complaining about a bsurge?"

If aegis was so easy to shut down people wouldn't run it. It's expensive and on many bars takes up at least a half of another slot(since gole is somewhat versatile I won't say a whole slot but you get the point). Aegis is also put on runners or any other character that has the option of being very careful that the skill gets up. Saying it goes down easy is just plain wrong, because the meta has shifted to the point where people bring skills just to shut it down. And even then it can be problematic for offenses. I know it's fun on these boards to post like you are the best player ever and you own every thing in the game very easily, and everything is easy to deal with if you have any skill, but it's pretty ridiculous sounding to people who actually play the game and are honest about it.

I could just as easily reply to you, "feeding the LoD?? You have diversion and Dshot? How would that monk ever have LoD? scrub!" And it would be just as ridiculous.

About the draw on the ele. If you are running an SoD over an RC, yes you need the draw, go ahead and put it on your ele. But if you are running RC, an elite condi removal, I think it's a waste to make your ele a draw bitch when you can just put plague touch or mend touch on one of your warriors, a skill that would actually be of great use to the character in general, and not hamper another player's bar with stuff that's redundant. My point is similar with ward melee. If you are already running a character whose elite owns melee when used properly, why are you bothering with the ward? Likely because you don't trust the player there to be able to handle much else and will probably get one of the two shut down very often.

I am not even saying that I think that the Bsurge ele is "leet sauce." I just think he has turned into a slot where you put your weaker players. If it wasn't, his bar would be more developed with skills that allow more play-making and flexibility than just vomiting out defense, orbing on spikes, throwing up aegis, glyphsac-ressing dead teammates, and being the draw bitch. If that is actually someone's definition of a proper bsurge, I would suggest slotting something else entirely.

EDIT: While I was typing Ensign posted. Honestly, with Air attunement and Gole(which I didn't even run that often on an air ele), I didn't have energy problems and I was orbing and striking to pressure unprotted targets. The build was very offense heavy by the standard at this moment, and had BA ranger, Cruel spear gon, Bull's Charge War and Hammer war with Bsurge. The Strike was basically a free cast and was up on recharge and the orbs were throw out very often as well(I never really did the whole bsurge on recharge thing thats popular now unless our team was about to break) The result of the build and the players playing it was significant damage coming out in three forms: condi degen, physical, and caster damage. The more pressure every character exerted, the more likely skills like LoD would be throw out for diversions, pleaks, dshots, etc. Most of the characters, including the ele could split effectively and the bsurge have a few slots to play around with for such a situation. We were by no means amazing players, and we took the build and playstyle from QQ, who was obviously doing quite well with it and we broke top 50. I think the air ele can pressure, I've experienced it working, and I think that your guidelines show how different the mindset can be on a bar with the same elite, but a lot of different "utility".

Thom Bangalter · Jul 29, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

air eles don't pressure, they spam bsurge and put up a ward. orb is a waste of 15 energy unless the other team is so bad you can just spam orb all day long.

Ensign · Jul 29, 2007, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

If you are running an SoD over an RC, yes you need the draw, go ahead and put it on your ele.

So if you want to run the best Prot elite you need to run Draw? Ok, I'll run Draw then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

But if you are running RC, an elite condi removal, I think it's a waste to make your ele a draw bitch when you can just put plague touch or mend touch on one of your warriors

Wait, so putting Draw Conditions on my Ele bar lets me not only run the best Prot elite, but lets my Warriors run more awesome secondary abilities like Conjures as well? This is bad why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

My point is similar with ward melee. If you are already running a character whose elite owns melee when used properly, why are you bothering with the ward?

Because the two skills serve two different purposes? Why would you run Aegis when you already have Shield of Deflection?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

If it wasn't, his bar would be more developed with skills that allow more play-making and flexibility

How, praytell, would you make a bar that typically contains 5 different abilities, 2 emanagement skills, and a ressig more developed? How would you add more playmaking ability and flexibility?

By adding Lightning Strike?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I would suggest slotting something else entirely.

You're right. Why would anyone want to run a character with strong defensive abilities, spike capability, and cleaning for your Warriors? People should drop midline characters altogether - they're just bitch bars after all, and more melee is where it's really at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Honestly, with Air attunement and Gole(which I didn't even run that often on an air ele)

You cannot even begin to understand how terrible I think you have to be at Guild Wars to say something like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

The Strike was basically a free cast and was up on recharge and the orbs were throw out very often as well

So to recap:

Lightning Strike makes your guy pressure, even if it means your Warriors are blind.

Right.

Seamus Finn · Jul 29, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Sigh, a quoting war, my favorite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

So if you want to run the best Prot elite you need to run Draw? Ok, I'll run Draw then..

To call SoD "the best prot elite" is pretty drastic given how the skill in itself is rather narrow. It owns physical attackers, fair enough. But the consequence is your prot monk is that much more narrow. The most popular bar I've seen for SoD run Sig Of Devo for heals, loses Spirit Bond(or maybe prot spirit), and runs Divine Spirit and Gole jsut to manage the energy. You may think that SoD is the single best prot elite, but look at what you need to do jsut to run it? That isn't even counting the now required draw. I like SoD, but I think it's popularity is mostly due to the fact that the current meta block-way balanced is all about two character that do damage and they happen to be warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Wait, so putting Draw Conditions on my Ele bar lets me not only run the best Prot elite, but lets my Warriors run more awesome secondary abilities like Conjures as well? This is bad why?

Because you likely tied three characters to your stand. I mean, I guess since you are also probably running the new Monk/Ele with freezing gust, you could throw together a rag tag 3 man split. I just prefer better options for splits and more flexibility. But conjure training is pretty good against monks without small prots(or that don't know how to use them), I'll grant you that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Because the two skills serve two different purposes? Why would you run Aegis when you already have Shield of Deflection??

Why, because you like running lame builds. Ward melee does serve a different purpose than bsurge(and why are you runnign a bsurge when you are running SoD? They are pretty comparable. I suppose for a character that can shut down adren spikes that isn't a monk which leads to the greater issue with the build we are obviously discussing). But not entirely, and given that you are already running aegis, now what special purpose is it serving? Basically just backup party-wide defense for when they strip your aegis and you arent good enough to get by with two monks and a blind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

How, praytell, would you make a bar that typically contains 5 different abilities, 2 emanagement skills, and a ressig more developed? How would you add more playmaking ability and flexibility?

By adding Lightning Strike??

Honestly, "5 different abilities" is a bit vague. You are a defensive bitch-character that throws orbs on spikes... sometimes. Seeing as how you've been reducing everything that I have posted on this to: "so run lightning strike and pwn face right? lol!" I can't say I'm surprised. My point is this character is a static character. The whole build is statis and is meant to jus tsit in your face with gobs of defense, maybe train/spike a kill out with conjures and blow up npcs with a derv. I like builds with movement. I might do a lot of things with the 2 or so slots I open up by dropping draw and melee(storm djinn's for backupflagging/split assists, maybe even a splinter weapon since aoe is so popular now), but I wouldn't put skills on there that are "generally" covered somewhere else multiple times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You're right. Why would anyone want to run a character with strong defensive abilities, spike capability, and cleaning for your Warriors? People should drop midline characters altogether - they're just bitch bars after all, and more melee is where it's really at.

Actually melee is clearly where it's really at. Otherwise you wouldn't think a character devoted almost-totally to shutting down theirs and cleaning yours has any worth. I'm not sure where I pointed out that the current rangers, mesmer, and paragon bars are bitch bars, but since you must have deemed this a clever thing to type have fun taking me out of context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You cannot even begin to understand how terrible I think you have to be at Guild Wars to say something like that.

My grammar could have lead one to think that I wouldn't have run air attunement or GoLE, but my actual statement was meant to imply that I could drop gole and by covering attunements with other characters, keep it up and manage my energy quite well while expending a lot. I personally like GoLE just for being able to fake cast. The energy is often only useful if a mesmer is allowed to pwn my face. Otherwise it's over the top for me. If you think the revised statement still falls under the category of what you typed, fair enough... but it sounds pretty ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

So to recap:

Lightning Strike makes your guy pressure, even if it means your Warriors are blind.

Right.

So to recap: You didn't read anything I typed(other than that I liked lightning strike) and if you don't run a draw there is no way to remove blinds or prevent them on warriors. Who needs context?

Greedy Gus · Jul 30, 2007, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I think the air ele can pressure, I've experienced it working, and I think that your guidelines show how different the mindset can be on a bar with the same elite, but a lot of different "utility".

Agreed, I think a lot of this is a mindset issue, in addition to approaching the topic from different metagame & build ideas (?). While constant lightning strike jokes are admittedly quite funny, it has proven in the recent past to be effective in the vein seamus is describing. Then again, we like to run a water ele instead, so my only relevant experience is strictly from trying to put the weakest player on ele

Ensign · Jul 30, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

The most popular bar I've seen for SoD run Sig Of Devo for heals, loses Spirit Bond(or maybe prot spirit), and runs Divine Spirit and Gole jsut to manage the energy.

Shield of Deflection serves the same purpose as Spirit Bond in every situation that you'd use it, so there's no point in running both. Divine Spirit is used in conjunction with Signet of Devotion to power Deny Hexes. If you don't want to use Deny Hexes you can ditch that infrastructure to get a slot back (Signet of Devotion turns into Gift of Health, Deny into Veil usually). The combination gives you the best Prot elite as well as the best raw removal you can afford against hex teams. That covers, well, every offense you'll run into in a competitive match.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I think it's popularity is mostly due to the fact that the current meta block-way balanced is all about two character that do damage and they happen to be warriors.

Erm, damage coming from the physicals with some assists from midline has been the way Guild Wars has played since the beginning. It's not exactly a new thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Because you likely tied three characters to your stand.

Which ones? I'm perfectly happy to split with a Conjure Warrior, as is every other top team I've played against.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

(and why are you runnign a bsurge when you are running SoD?

Because single points of failure are bad design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Basically just backup party-wide defense for when they strip your aegis and you arent good enough to get by with two monks and a blind.

You just nailed it. The top teams in tournament play all run Aegis, Ward Melee, Blind, and SoD because we are bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Seeing as how you've been reducing everything that I have posted on this to: "so run lightning strike and pwn face right? lol!" I can't say I'm surprised.

A typical Air Elementalist bar runs three Air skills (Lightning Orb, Gale, Blinding Surge), two emanagement skills (Air Attunement and Glyph of Lesser Energy), one great global defensive skill (Ward Against Melee), and one cleaning skill (Draw Conditions). Occasionally Convert Hexes is swapped in for the Draw if you expect hexes as part of a larger plan. Yet somehow, taking off Draw Conditions for Lightning Strike makes the character good. This makes no sense to me, because from experience in high level play Draw Conditions does a lot more damage, through keeping your physicals clean, than Lightning Strike could possibly do.

I don't really have any opposition to doing more with the character than Ward/Blind/Draw...the trouble is, at higher levels of play that character is so good that it gets a ton of hate directed at it, and it requires a huge amount of attention and micromanagement just to do those 3 jobs consistently under fire...blind and ward can take all of your attention alone with a Mesmer looking at you and a Ranger in your face, it's really a boon that Orb and Draw can be directed for you. The marginal benefit of throwing random Lightning Strikes, or even T-tossing Strikes, compared with the attention taken away from managing the BSurge and Ward properly, really doesn't compare at all.

But that's assuming you're trying to do more on top of making sure that BSurge and Ward are used properly. You're proposing not using those skills properly at all, and turning into an Orb spammer...which is such a horrendous character that you'll have a hard time convincing me to talk about it seriously at all. Lightning Orb is the worst use of energy on that character's bar. Lightning Strike would be even worse. Why would you prioritize those skills over the ones that win you games?