Curse

Sophitia Leafblade · Jul 23, 2007, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Signet of Recall Is just silly, lose all energy and then -4 regen for 10 seconds!? Im sure thats gotta be a typo, bascially for 10 seconds your useless. Its even worse than "the Power is yours". It should be either -4 regen OR lose all energy not both.

Riotgear · Jul 23, 2007, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Signet of Recall isn't conceptually bad with a swap: It's a signet so you can use it even if your energy is "below 0."

The problem is more along the lines of it just being underpowered: The energy degen will cost you 13.33 energy, so at 10 attribute you net a bit under 5 energy every 20 seconds. Waste Not, Want Not gives you 6 net with the same cooldown. Comes down to whether or not you want to run MoR or MoI, I guess, it's still better than Ether Signet. Hell, you could use Glowing Signet at 0 attribute every time your ranger uses BA and get similar net.

Looks like A.net is still trying to make signet mesmers useful, and Signet of Distraction on a 10-sec recharge with MoI finally puts another skill on such a potential bar, but I'm still having quite a bit of difficulty thinking up enough good, synergistic signets to put on the same bar for such a thing.

glountz · Jul 23, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

I would like to see the quote "if you're wielding a bow" on "rapid fire".
If not, melee characters will get the most uber IAS they can. Cheap, with low recharge and low attribute investment for max IAS (+33%). As a preparation it can't be removed.
Even better than weapon of agression.

Patccmoi · Jul 23, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I would like to see the quote "if you're wielding a bow" on "rapid fire".
If not, melee characters will get the most uber IAS they can. Cheap, with low recharge and low attribute investment for max IAS (+33%). As a preparation it can't be removed.
Even better than weapon of agression.

I certainly want my IAS to be a 2s cast that requires investment in another attribute line you have absolutely no use for? Seriously, if you see a Warrior or Dervish that uses Rapid Fire, won't it become a priority interrupt? I wouldn't be surprised if it's limited to Bows either, seeing the name and icon...

Personally i think most skills are nice and i don't really see this as another NF with tons of garbage skills. I don't see many Searing Flames in there. Sure, some ARE potentially problematic atm, but guess what, it's still beta, those skills have DISCUSSION PAGES that Izzy reads where you can say why skill X is broken in Y combo and what could be done so that doesn't happen. Seems much more constructive than saying 'zomg garbage skills will dumb down the game'.

Atm, the most problematic skills i see:

1) Grapple. Seriously, the concept is VERY nice, but the fact that skills preventing you to get knocked exist screw it up. If you'd do something like 'you and target foe are knocked down and for 2 seconds you cannot move or attack' it might settle that problem a bit. Even if you don't get knocked, you can't take advantage of it more than if you were.

2) Disarm. I love the idea, great skill, but it's a strong shutdown on warriors that's at the same time a weak shutdown on Melandrus. How about 'target foe cannot use attack skill for 1..8 seconds' instead of disabling them? Kinda like Vow of Strength or Vow of Silence, they don't disable anything, you just can't use them. Then it hurts all classes the same, and with a slightly longer duration it hurts Dervishes actually more than warriors in a sense cause Warriors can still build adrenal on empty skills, etc..

3) Feral Aggression. Scary. Not sure it's too good atm, but when you think that you can add Othyug's Cry, maybe a pure Beastmaster only using his bow for like DShot can become a real threat. Then again, that's not necessarily a bad thing but it's still a bit scary when you read the description.

4) Steadfast Soul. Seriously, this seems DAMN good against kds. It's just better than Balt's Pendulum overall. Lower duration/longer recharge maybe? Something like for 3..8s with 15s recharge? I don't see why you should be able to easily maintain that on someone at all time even at very low spec (with 20% longer enchant, you need 6 prot. That's nothing and a midliner could easily keep that on a monk at all time)

5) Withering Aura. Incredible to bury condition, and like no recharge. Can easily throw this on people or even use it at fairly low spec on /N. The obvious thing is someone casting it on a Cripshot or BHA for a double buried condition that even Mend Touch can't get rid of, but there's just some pretty scary effects on linebackers too. Hell, a sin with a scythe would be a scary linebacker when they got that on their back. Also quite scary when you think of something like Stoning. Put Withering Aura on your melee, have some Stoning on an Ele midline, that's a lot of easy kds.

6) Power Lock. In MoR, that's freaking powerful. More scary that DShot for most casters.

7) Energy Blast, a bit scary for armor ignoring damage and can be thrown on any kind of ele. Cast and recharge makes it a bit unwieldy, but considering +30/-2 sets it's kind of a joke to have it hitting max damage whenever you use it. Seem like some kind of 'eurospike setup' skill that won't be much good for the game. I mean, you want a powerful spike on an Hydro? Give them Energy Blast and they can take part in any kind of major spike with a huge armor ignoring damage blast. Personally i'd rather see the cooldown lower but lowering the damage cap quite a bit too to something like 100-110.

8) Ghostly Weapon. I love it, i SERIOUSLY love it and it makes midline Rts sooo much better when you think of a build with like Wielder's Zeal, Wielder's Remedy, Ghostly Weapon, Vengeful Weapon... but man it might just be too strong too. It's like a draw condition (well, just one but still) that also makes your ally go through block on a spike. I dunno, it might not be overpowered and it might just be a very good midline skill. The good thing is that the combo with Wielder's Zeal/Remedy requires Rt primary so it won't be nearly as good on /Rt.

9) Anthem of Disruption. Eek. Too much interruption, especially when you think of thing like Mystic Sweep or Prot Strike that can become reliable interrupts with very low recharge. And with the cost/recharge and lack of attribute investment, you can just throw that on any midliner. I'd at least make it Leadership with fail 50% <5.

10) Spear Swipe. It seems a bit too powerful, even if it's limited to a spear. Cause guess what, you can use a P/W with an Axe or Hammer and just switch to a spear to smack daze on the guy. Or use an R/P with Expert's Dexterity and basically have a 'daze at will'. It should need some kind of other condition to daze than 'hit the guy'

11) Pious Fury. Not necessarily a bad skill, but change scaling or it'll really be BoA #2

Personally, i don't see other skills that i consider problematic. Some are powerful, but not more than the current popular skills, just different use with different combos. And having 11/100 skills problematic in BETA stage isn't bad at all imo and far from 'introducing tons of garbage'. There's ONE major thing about the whole balance that worries me though and it's Melandru Dervishes after all that. A LOT of the new skills/defense added revolve around conditions, especially weakness, and mass application of it, or Smoke Powder to blind adjacent foes, etc. and there's one guy going around all that and it's Melandru. You even have Cracked Armor, a new condition that opens melee to spike as if they were a mere caster... but then again you got Melandru that's a melee that doesn't care about it. And a few skills in there BUFF Melandru while i don't see any except maybe Atrophy that adds counter. I really think something needs to be done about Melandru and it's Melandru itself, not balancing everything else around it. There were many suggestions before to switch it so that Melandru is instead very good condition removal on the guy instead of immunity and it'd likely change quite a bit. Because right now all i can think of after i read this is stuff like 2-3 Trees builds becoming increasingly popular and making most of those new skills obsolete even if they're very strong at the core.

Snow Bunny · Jul 23, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Defile Defenses? I do hope that my right eye is now blind as well.

Goodbye Aegis, SoD, guardian, it's been lovely to have you join us.

It's spammable prot rape, gg.

Grapple? Ho hum, instead of Crip slash, we now have a non elite for hammer warriors to pummel the monks with. Backbreaker and "IMTDT!" fits the bill nicely with this one, ugh.

I guess my career as a monk is officially over, I don't want to have to Prot against EotN.

What if... · Jul 23, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

We still haven't seen the most obvious combination of mesmer interrupts yet: a non-elite combination of power leak and power drain using guilt/shame's att per effectiveness slope and a 20 second recharge.

I really wish ANET would drop signet of distraction or signet of recall for this. More so, I wish someone who actually played mesmer was responsible for writing up these skills.

lacasner · Jul 23, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Defile Defenses? I do hope that my right eye is now blind as well.
Goodbye Aegis, SoD, guardian, it's been lovely to have you join us.

It's spammable prot rape, gg.

Grapple? Ho hum, instead of Crip slash, we now have a non elite for hammer warriors to pummel the monks with. Backbreaker and "IMTDT!" fits the bill nicely with this one, ugh.

I guess my career as a monk is officially over, I don't want to have to Prot against EotN.

At least u have ur own bs like steadfast soul to counter it lol.

Quote:

I would like to see the quote "if you're wielding a bow" on "rapid fire".
If not, melee characters will get the most uber IAS they can. Cheap, with low recharge and low attribute investment for max IAS (+33%). As a preparation it can't be removed.

/signed

THe skill practically beats all AIS skills, maybe frenzy still tops, but when you look at soldiers fury which is an "elite" ais, it fails in comparison. Maybe give soldiers fury a boost, for instance, if you become under the effect of a shout or chant during the duration of this echo, it lasts for x amount of seconds depending on your leadership rank. Just give the thing a boost, it sucks.

twicky_kid · Jul 23, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Personally, i don't see other skills that i consider problematic. Some are powerful, but not more than the current popular skills, just different use with different combos. And having 11/100 skills problematic in BETA stage isn't bad at all imo and far from 'introducing tons of garbage'. There's ONE major thing about the whole balance that worries me though and it's Melandru Dervishes after all that. A LOT of the new skills/defense added revolve around conditions, especially weakness, and mass application of it, or Smoke Powder to blind adjacent foes, etc. and there's one guy going around all that and it's Melandru. You even have Cracked Armor, a new condition that opens melee to spike as if they were a mere caster... but then again you got Melandru that's a melee that doesn't care about it. And a few skills in there BUFF Melandru while i don't see any except maybe Atrophy that adds counter. I really think something needs to be done about Melandru and it's Melandru itself, not balancing everything else around it. There were many suggestions before to switch it so that Melandru is instead very good condition removal on the guy instead of immunity and it'd likely change quite a bit. Because right now all i can think of after i read this is stuff like 2-3 Trees builds becoming increasingly popular and making most of those new skills obsolete even if they're very strong at the core.

This is exactly why I'm worried about Masochism + OoA. Might as well combine Grenth and Mel together as one skill because that's exactly what its going to be. Say good by to your prot and conditions. Only thing left is def is hexes which is being completely screwed by holy veil.

I hate to say it but holy veil does need a slight nerf. I don't understand why its still a 12 recharge which is the same as other hex removal but 2x more powerful and versital.

Take the current smite derv pressure build and add a 55 OoA necro with Masochism. If you face them head on you'll get wiped in seconds because you have absolutely 0 def outside of wards. If you split then your base will have 0 def because they will simply cut through any of the prot on the def team.

Patccmoi · Jul 23, 2007, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

This is exactly why I'm worried about Masochism + OoA. Might as well combine Grenth and Mel together as one skill because that's exactly what its going to be. Say good by to your prot and conditions. Only thing left is def is hexes which is being completely screwed by holy veil.

OoA DOES state 'health loss' though and NOT health sac. I agree that atm it works as health sac, but this might actually not be intended and if the combo is too strong that part can be tweaked. Out of that, Masochism makes a lot of skills much more viable and interesting, although it IS opened for abuse that's true. It's one i forgot when i did my list. It's basically 'uncapped' energy gain of a sort, especially when you think of stuff like Contagion where you can sac life like a madman using Draw Conditions with it. I saw 2 Necros with Contagion, Dark Aura and Draw Cond side by side before and it's freaking scary. If they gain infinite energy in the process, it's not less scary. They could use Chillblain on recharge... But out of 'abuse' builds it's actually a very interesting skill that's some kind of 'attunement' for Necros and i wouldn't want to see it just gone. Maybe some of the problematic skill combos can just switch from 'health sac' to 'health loss'.

And seriously i don't see what's the big deal with that Defile Defenses hex that people seem to totally overreact to imo. It hurts big passive defense, true, but that's a GOOD thing. You think that people will manage to kill through SoD or a 75% block because of Defile? I mean hell, if a good attack skill went through, it could possibly cause as much damage or nearly as Defile does. You have to actually prevent damage for Defile to work. The Necro could also use Defile Enchantment in your face, and when you add the damage to that on top of an attack that doesn't get blocked it's higher than what Defile Defenses does. It will basically allow to pressure a bit more against mass passive blocking and -might- help spike through if you would just barely save target otherwise. But hell, when you spike you'll still want that block off, not be happy that -maybe- defile defenses will do 115 damage. It's a very good skill to fit on a Curse Necro, and actually an active hex that benefits from timing and that removes itself.

Razz Thom · Jul 23, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

defile defenses would be completly IMBA if it were for a phys attacker class. but since it doesn't remove the blocking and it is for necro really the only use it will probably get is /N or MM bars. necros usually don't rely on phys attacks, since they already have a plethora of armor ignoring damage at their disposal. and a w/n waiting a full second to do damage but not removing the blocking is wasting his time.

Snow Bunny · Jul 23, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

And seriously i don't see what's the big deal with that Defile Defenses hex that people seem to totally overreact to imo. It hurts big passive defense, true, but that's a GOOD thing. You think that people will manage to kill through SoD or a 75% block because of Defile? I mean hell, if a good attack skill went through, it could possibly cause as much damage or nearly as Defile does. You have to actually prevent damage for Defile to work. The Necro could also use Defile Enchantment in your face, and when you add the damage to that on top of an attack that doesn't get blocked it's higher than what Defile Defenses does. It will basically allow to pressure a bit more against mass passive blocking and -might- help spike through if you would just barely save target otherwise. But hell, when you spike you'll still want that block off, not be happy that -maybe- defile defenses will do 115 damage. It's a very good skill to fit on a Curse Necro, and actually an active hex that benefits from timing and that removes itself.

Righteo, I'm not trying to sound demeaning, but have you been in HA lately? Seen how much heroway has just gone rampant?
Ok, that entire build is based off of curses, Eotn is just buffing that build.
In your example, a curse necro, ESPECIALLY a hero, will rape a good prot monk.
Prot Mo puts up Aegis. Heroway team decides to spike the Lod. The Curse necro slaps barbs on the LoD. The prot puts SoD on the LoD. GG, Master of Whispers slaps the SoD'd LoD with Defile Defenses, then he and Olias spike with Desecrate Enchantments. With 2 Raos and pets, with a very high chance to miss, thus triggering DD, an easy 400+ spike (conservative estimate) within a matter of seconds.

That's the cause for overreaction. Any sort of prot is useless against this. GG.

Tab · Jul 23, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Snow summed it up well. Some of the new skills aren't that bad by themselves, but when combined with already broken builds, such as Heroway and Eurohex, they are extremely broken.

Ensign · Jul 23, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Basically hex teams drop Parabond for Defile Defenses, and now instead of getting a little bit of degen they get a hex that lasts just as long, but also blows up on someone for 100+ sometimes when they have a physical beating on them. Or maybe you run both, two Necros with two different spammy covers to clog up the removal even more.

FoxBat · Jul 23, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Cut defiles' duration to 6 seconds then. Maybe it still needs a mana or damage tap though.

Snow Bunny · Jul 23, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Eh...
personally, it's not the duration of DD that gets me, it's the mechanic itself. It's a hex that's punishing the usage of prot. It's as if Scourge Healing was a curse skill that was spammable. Every time the LoD LoD'd, he'd get spiked for 640.
I mean sure, reduce the duration of the hex, I admit that would be of some benefit, but then all that would mean is that it would be used as a spike coordination, with one thrown on a target right after the other.

It's the general mechanic that bothers me about this skill; Prot is essential.

Living Parasite · Jul 23, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

I do agree that Defile Defenses is over the top. But not as over the top as many claim.

Why is Defile Defenses GREAT?
1) Long Duration
2) Short Recharge, Cast
3) 114 Armor-Ignoring Damage
4) In a great attribute line
5) Can serve as a cover hex

Just knock the duration down to 5-6 and make the cast time two instead of one. That way it loses it's ability to cover a hex well but still servers a role.

On a different note:

Spawning Power: 12+1+1
Smiting Prayers: 12
Communing: 3+1

[E]Wielder's Zeal
Wielder's Remedy
Zealot's Fire
Ghostly Weapon
Balth's Aura
Smite Hex/Open
Signet of Mystic Wrath/Open
Res Sig

If you used this build on a melee (such as a tree), each of their attacks would be unblockable, every second they would lose one condition, every second adjacent foes would take 29 damage, and every 13 seconds they would lose a hex and deal damage. Signet of Mystic Wrath is there for spiking capabilities; it'd deal 87 armor-ignoring damage.

twicky_kid · Jul 23, 2007, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

OoA DOES state 'health loss' though and NOT health sac. I agree that atm it works as health sac, but this might actually not be intended and if the combo is too strong that part can be tweaked. Out of that, Masochism makes a lot of skills much more viable and interesting, although it IS opened for abuse that's true. It's one i forgot when i did my list. It's basically 'uncapped' energy gain of a sort, especially when you think of stuff like Contagion where you can sac life like a madman using Draw Conditions with it. I saw 2 Necros with Contagion, Dark Aura and Draw Cond side by side before and it's freaking scary. If they gain infinite energy in the process, it's not less scary. They could use Chillblain on recharge... But out of 'abuse' builds it's actually a very interesting skill that's some kind of 'attunement' for Necros and i wouldn't want to see it just gone. Maybe some of the problematic skill combos can just switch from 'health sac' to 'health loss'.

Even if they fix OoA (which I think they will) its still very powerful in a melee pressure meta. Don't get me wrong though melee pressure meta is a good thing.

OoB, OoV, and Dark fury are going to be very dangerous with the current meta. Dark fury combined with the current fear me spam is just sick. I used a build like that during season 1 and steam rolled just about everyone we faced (heave e denial meta back then). I haven't tried the build since because the meta changed but now would be a ripe time to start running it again.

This skill can also bring in a whole new breed of touchers. I've used Vampiric spirit along with dark aura to do 120-150 shadow dmg and life steal per cast. You never really run out of life but you do run out of energy fast. Masochism will completely negate Vampiric spirit's +3 energy cost. This build loves melee too. Melee tend to bunch of easily. 1 spike could wipe out your entire front line in seconds.

Masochism alone is going to directly impact the meta. I can't wait tbh. I don't want them to change too much about it or other skills but just understand this skill can make some things overpowered quickly.

Patccmoi · Jul 24, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Parasite

I do agree that Defile Defenses is over the top. But not as over the top as many claim.

Why is Defile Defenses GREAT?
1) Long Duration
2) Short Recharge, Cast
3) 114 Armor-Ignoring Damage
4) In a great attribute line
5) Can serve as a cover hex

Just knock the duration down to 5-6 and make the cast time two instead of one. That way it loses it's ability to cover a hex well but still servers a role.

Agreed about this, knocking duration would be a good thing. I honestly didn't look at it at all as a cover hex so i didn't think of using this to just leave hexes that need to be removed, and it might be problematic as such, but with a low duration that part would be kinda gone.

Not sure about 2s cast time honestly. I mean, yes, it's cheap, fast and high damage, but you still have to block attacks for it to triggers, which means you're already reducing the damage quite a bit. I just don't really see this working to spike, it really seems more like a way to add a bit of pressure through all the passive defense crap.

And for people saying stuff like 'it's working against prot', hell there's other prot than blocking (SoA, Shield of Regen, Spirit Bond/Prot Spirit, etc...) and there's also other skills that just strip enchants altogether. It's not like 'working against prot' is a new concept. This skill does it on 5/1/5, through, but it also requires your prot to work before it actually does anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Parasite

On a different note:

Spawning Power: 12+1+1
Smiting Prayers: 12
Communing: 3+1

[E]Wielder's Zeal
Wielder's Remedy
Zealot's Fire
Ghostly Weapon
Balth's Aura
Smite Hex/Open
Signet of Mystic Wrath/Open
Res Sig

If you used this build on a melee (such as a tree), each of their attacks would be unblockable, every second they would lose one condition, every second adjacent foes would take 29 damage, and every 13 seconds they would lose a hex and deal damage. Signet of Mystic Wrath is there for spiking capabilities; it'd deal 87 armor-ignoring damage.

Lol, i posted nearly the same build on my guild forum. Ghostly Weapon, Wielder's Remedy, Wielder's Zeal and Zealot's Fire seem really powerful mixed together and can create very powerful Rt smiters.

God Apprentice · Jul 24, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I would like to see the quote "if you're wielding a bow" on "rapid fire".
If not, melee characters will get the most uber IAS they can. Cheap, with low recharge and low attribute investment for max IAS (+33%). As a preparation it can't be removed.
Even better than weapon of agression.

Yeah and imagine now all the Shadow Prison sins will use Rapid Fire.

Now imagine Putrid Bile in the current degen Hero crap. Damage from it, plus the EoE.

Putrid Bile (for those who haven't read it): Hex Spell. For 5...17...20 seconds, target foe suffers -1...3...3 Health degeneration. If that foe dies while under the effects of this Hex, all nearby foes take 25...73...85 damage.

Living Parasite · Jul 24, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

First, Izzy answered my question about Atrophy.

Q) Me: Does this work on skills that are activated that are affected by a primary attribute when this is cast?

A) Izzy: Ok looks like I was right, it doesn't check until skill execution so if someone uses it on you mid cast you will cast it at 0 spec so it only lasts 10s. (The ten seconds he is talking about is refering to how long Avatar of Melandru will last when someone casts Atrophy on your in mid-activation.)

On Defile Defenses:
Izzy: I agree on a lot of these points, I really like the damage thou, I'm thinking of dropping duration to 10s non scaling, and recharge 8 or so.

On Grapple:
Izzy: Interesting idea on the lose all stances, I'll think about it some. AND
Izzy: Any warrior that uses knockdown gloves will be knocked down for 3s.

On Cracked Armor:
Izzy: The skills Weaken armor, and Shadowy burden, will be changed to apply Cracked armor as well, I'm looking at the application of cracked armor, I do think it's balanced assuming it's equal to deepwound and I don't think thats true, so I'll probably reduce the costs of the skills that apply it. AND
Izzy: This does work on shields.

On Rapid Fire:
Izzy: This only works with bows.

On Anthem of Disruption:
Izzy: Yes this is I'll be tweaking it.

If you're wondering where I got most of the info, Discussion pages:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_...e_North_skills

Quote:

Ghostly Weapon, Wielder's Remedy, Wielder's Zeal and Zealot's Fire seem really powerful mixed together and can create very powerful Rt smiters.

Yeah. It's scary. While this build does less raw DPS than a melee character would do, it really helps the melee Ghostly Weapon is being cast on. I don't know if it's Searing Flames imbalanced, but I think we'll see Ghostly Weapon smiters.