Curse

just call me jimmy · Sep 07, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

I wanted to get everyones opinion, of the chart I am going to post.
It shows how a guild that has not played since May is still rank 34.
Questions I am posing
#1 Has the new ladder helped or hurt GVG as a whole
#2 Has the nerfing of pretty much every medium powered spike build ie. Ranger Spike, Air or Obs Spike, Necro Spike, smiting. (reason for me saying medium is these builds were nowhere close to brutally overpowered builds such as Rit Spike). Turned GVG into probably the most boring it has ever been.
#3 Your opinion of GVG as a whole, present and future.
This is COW's "There Is A Cow Level" ladder Chart
I know the chart is huge, but i wanted to place it on for effect

33rd 1320 331 50 0 2007-09-06 00:00 GMT
33rd 1320 331 50 0 2007-09-05 00:00 GMT
33rd 1320 331 50 0 2007-09-04 00:00 GMT
33rd 1320 331 50 0 2007-09-03 00:00 GMT
33rd - -2 1320 331 50 0 2007-09-02 00:00 GMT
31st 1320 331 50 0 2007-09-01 00:00 GMT
31st - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-31 00:00 GMT
30th 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-30 00:00 GMT
30th + +1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-29 00:00 GMT
31st - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-28 00:00 GMT
30th - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-27 00:00 GMT
29th + +3 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-26 00:00 GMT
32nd - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-25 00:00 GMT
31st + +1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-24 00:00 GMT
32nd 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-23 00:00 GMT
32nd 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-22 00:00 GMT
32nd + +1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-21 00:00 GMT
33rd + +1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-20 00:00 GMT
34th - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-19 00:00 GMT
33rd - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-18 00:00 GMT
32nd 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-17 00:00 GMT
32nd - -2 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-16 00:00 GMT
30th 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-15 00:00 GMT
30th 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-14 00:00 GMT
30th - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-13 00:00 GMT
29th - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-12 00:00 GMT
28th 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-11 00:00 GMT
28th 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-10 00:00 GMT
28th 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-09 00:00 GMT
28th 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-08 00:00 GMT
28th + +1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-07 00:00 GMT
29th 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-06 00:00 GMT
29th - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-05 00:00 GMT
28th 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-04 00:00 GMT
28th + +1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-03 00:00 GMT
29th - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-02 00:00 GMT
28th 1320 331 50 0 2007-08-01 00:00 GMT
28th 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-31 00:00 GMT
28th - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-30 00:00 GMT
27th - -4 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-29 00:00 GMT
23rd 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-28 00:00 GMT
23rd 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-27 00:00 GMT
23rd + +1 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-26 00:00 GMT
24th 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-25 00:00 GMT
24th 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-24 00:00 GMT
24th 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-23 00:00 GMT
24th - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-22 00:00 GMT
23rd 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-21 00:00 GMT
23rd 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-20 00:00 GMT
23rd + +1 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-19 00:00 GMT
24th - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-18 00:00 GMT
23rd + +1 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-17 00:00 GMT
24th - -3 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-16 00:00 GMT
21st 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-15 00:00 GMT
21st 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-14 00:00 GMT
21st - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-13 00:00 GMT
20th 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-12 00:00 GMT
20th 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-11 00:00 GMT
20th + +1 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-10 00:00 GMT
21st + +2 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-09 00:00 GMT
23rd - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-08 00:00 GMT
22nd 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-07 00:00 GMT
22nd 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-06 00:00 GMT
22nd - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-05 00:00 GMT
21st 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-04 00:00 GMT
21st 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-03 00:00 GMT
21st - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-02 00:00 GMT
20th 1320 331 50 0 2007-07-01 00:00 GMT
20th - -2 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-30 00:00 GMT
18th + +1 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-29 00:00 GMT
19th 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-28 00:00 GMT
19th + +2 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-27 00:00 GMT
21st - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-26 00:00 GMT
20th 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-25 00:00 GMT
20th - -2 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-24 00:00 GMT
18th + +1 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-23 00:00 GMT
19th - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-22 00:00 GMT
18th - -2 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-21 00:00 GMT
16th - -2 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-20 00:00 GMT
14th 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-19 00:00 GMT
14th 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-18 00:00 GMT
14th + +1 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-17 00:00 GMT
15th - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-16 00:00 GMT
14th 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-15 00:00 GMT
14th 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-14 00:00 GMT
14th 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-13 00:00 GMT
14th 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-12 00:00 GMT
14th - -1 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-11 00:00 GMT
13th + +1 1320 331 50 0 2007-06-10 00:00 GMT
14th 1320 331 50 0 + +0 2007-06-09 00:00 GMT
14th 1320 331 50 2007-06-08 00:00 GMT
14th 1320 331 50 2007-06-07 00:00 GMT
14th - -1 1320 331 50 2007-06-06 00:00 GMT
13th 1320 331 50 2007-06-05 00:00 GMT
13th - -1 1320 331 50 2007-06-04 00:00 GMT
12th 1320 331 50 2007-06-03 00:00 GMT
12th 1320 331 50 2007-06-02 00:00 GMT
12th - -1 1320 331 50 2007-06-01 00:00 GMT
11th + +23 1320 + +320 331 + +331 50 + +50 2007-05-31 00:00 GMT

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Tab · Sep 07, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

COW are still rank 34 because they had a very good rating before they quit.
Nerfs of gimmicky spikes and triple smite builds haven't made GvG dull. Nerfs to skills like Blackout and Gale have.

Farin · Sep 08, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

1- Don't think it did anything.
2- No
3- Better than it was a few months ago

Neo-LD · Sep 08, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

1- Don't think it did anything.
2- No
3- Better than it was a few months ago

QFT. Btw that chart is pretty obnoxious. Just linking to the ladder page would be better.

Servant of Kali · Sep 08, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Nerfing spikes = good.

Heroway = horrible (any hero counts).

just call me jimmy · Sep 08, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

LOL WoW

This is kinda proving my point. COW was prob my favorite team to watch!!!!!!!!
Cow showed everyone what true GVG was all about. Decide your build, then go out a totally crush your opponent. They disbanded and sold their guild in May. What I was also trying to point out was EVERY observer you watch is the same 2 builds. The only difference is 1 balanced build has 1 paragon the other has 2. The other 2 Sin build has a Dervish as flag melee the other has a warrior there. What spike builds did, is serve as a buffer. They stopped stupid builds from forming (ie 8 chars with recall and no monk) They kept everyone honest ( you had to be good to beat them) Also they allowed a team to learn communication!!!
It amazes me that the 1st 4 posts on this thread, are all about attacking me. ( Just amazing)

What I am trying to get across is the fact that in 4 months ( that is 120 days, 1/3 of a year) the top 100 teams have not made a completely inactive guild at least close to getting of the top 100 ladder board. Which means that if Virtual Dragons stopped playing now. By the time Guildwars 2 roles out they will still be #1.

That is all I was trying to put out there!!!!!!!!!!!!

But feel free to close this thread. I was hoping for responses from the community!

*lemming* · Sep 08, 2007, 01:54 AM // 01:54

It's true that the ladder is pretty static. However...

Quote:

Originally Posted by just call me jimmy

What I was also trying to point out was EVERY observer you watch is the same 2 builds. The only difference is 1 balanced build has 1 paragon the other has 2. The other 2 Sin build has a Dervish as flag melee the other has a warrior there. What spike builds did, is serve as a buffer. They stopped stupid builds from forming (ie 8 chars with recall and no monk) They kept everyone honest ( you had to be good to beat them) Also they allowed a team to learn communication!!!

You have no idea what you're talking about.

just call me jimmy · Sep 08, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Like I said please close.

I have no idea what I am talking about is probably the most brutal statement yet.

I am asking questions, not talking about anything. It seem as though you attack me to keep away from the the questions I asked.

The most funny part about this is you have no idea who I am.

Would i t make a difference if I was from IQ, QQ, TE, COW ?

Actually yes it would, enough said.

Oh and Lemming, why don;t you watch a few observers!!!!!!! Instead of being an idiot.

Obs is the same build over and over again. Why? because they can and there is nothing to stop anyone from playing it. (keep them in check)

I asked three simple questions. The combined IQ of all of the posters is "wow attack jimmy" "he has no clue" "your chart was obnoxious"
"nerfing spikes= good"

Actually the 4 of you answered my questions , the problem is you have no idea how well!!

Neo-LD · Sep 08, 2007, 04:28 AM // 04:28

I didnt "attack" you before, I dont know where you got that idea. However, if you continue to be beligerant in this thread, I wouldnt be surprised if plenty of people become hostile towards you. Let me give you a hint: Asking people what they think, and then jumping all over them when they dont tell you what you want to hear, doesnt work. Think about that for a while.

Quote:

What I am trying to get across is the fact that in 4 months ( that is 120 days, 1/3 of a year) the top 100 teams have not made a completely inactive guild at least close to getting of the top 100 ladder board. Which means that if Virtual Dragons stopped playing now. By the time Guildwars 2 roles out they will still be #1.

That is all I was trying to put out there!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, thats not all you are trying to put out there. If that were all, no one would take issue, because plenty of people agree that its a bad thing to have the ladder behave that way, or at the very least are indifferent. However, If you will take a step back and look at your own post, you will realize that you are putting forth much more than that point - namely your three questions.

Speaking of which, when a few GvG veterans gave you their answers, you became hostile because you didnt like what you heard. The fact of the matter is that most pvp-ers dont care very much about the new or old ladder systems, arent crying one bit about the nerfing of spike builds, and are happy with the direction of the balance changes that Anet has implemented in the past few weeks. I suppose you dont have to agree, but unless you can give good reasons why, no one will care.

Quote:

What I was also trying to point out was EVERY observer you watch is the same 2 builds. The only difference is 1 balanced build has 1 paragon the other has 2. The other 2 Sin build has a Dervish as flag melee the other has a warrior there. What spike builds did, is serve as a buffer. They stopped stupid builds from forming (ie 8 chars with recall and no monk) They kept everyone honest ( you had to be good to beat them) Also they allowed a team to learn communication!!!

Lemming quoted this part of one of your posts and responed with "you have no idea what you're talking about. While that statement in and of itself doesnt seem very valid (its just a bald statement/insult), it actually gets all the validation it needs from the part of your post he quoted. You dont need to prove someone is a fool if they already opened their mouth and did the job for you.

However, I suppose I will take the time to point out why what you posted is wrong.

- Alot of people, including you, I gather, have a mysterious notion that a diverse metagame is inherantly "fun," while a homogenous one is always "boring." This is wrong for several reasons.

1. A diverse metagame does not ensure fun. Several builds, very much including the spike builds that you seem to want to bring back, are no fun at all to use nor play against. The current balanced builds that you see on observer are lots of fun, because, to use a cliche, they play the game the way it was meant to be played.

2. A stale metagame, while it sounds bad, is by no means necessarily boring. Most pvp players find a great deal more fun in outplaying their opponents on the battlefield, than in outsmarting them in the build lab.

3. The most serious failing in your logic, though, is the assumption that all balanced teams on observer are the same. While they may be using nearly the same classes, and even the same skillbars, each team on the ladder is inconcievably different than every other one. This is because no matter how similar your opponent's build is from match to match, the fact that you are facing the same eight character builds is FAR less significant than the fact that you are facing eight different players. Each player, and consequently each team, has different patterns, mannerisms, and abilities. Different strengths and weaknesses. They will make different plays, they will try different things, they will challenge you in a way completely unique to their team. This is why a stale metagame need not be a boring one. This is why most pvp players (that are left) like the direction that game is heading in.

Vanquisher · Sep 08, 2007, 04:45 AM // 04:45

New ladder is worthless. There's ridiculously little point in playing it unless trying to grind out a few Champ Points. Any real testing is generally done vs. other good Guilds who you're unlikely to face on ladder.
New AT system is equally poor in comparison to the GWWC/GWFC events. Who exactly remembers the winner of, say, June's AT, who they beat, what Builds were run, how close it came, etc? I'm just guessing here, but I'm going to go ahead and make the assumption that WM vs. LuM, when WM had both Monks DP'ed out, and ran LuM around Druids for a long while, in the semi-final in Taipei, before securing a morale boost and winning the game to go through in the end was far better.

However, the ladder and AT system aren't the only things that are poor. The sheer amount of passive defense floating around at the moment is awful. You have this class, that has huge armor, and puts buffs on your entire party, with no energy woes, while outputting a high amount of damage (hi, Paragons). Then you have skills like Aegis, which have such a hugely beneficial effect it warrants a much greater cost than the current one. Then you get to Dervishes. AoMel. still hasn't been fixed well enough, and Wearying Strike is still incredibly broken. Those aren't even the only things about the class. You've also got SoD, and SoR, neither of which are really interruptable, unless you get lucky (k, you can claim to know they were gonna cast it, but you don't know exactly when, so...). Wards are another key contributor to the poor state of the game in offensive terms. Mantra of Recovery is stupid in that it completely defies the point of balancing skills based on recharge. So what if it's elite? You can use at least 5 skills to a much greater effect with it, and with a Ward there you save however many attribute points while being able to maintain it.

And it's not like you can reliably interrupt all of this. What with Shields Up, chained Aegis, Def. Anthem, your Rangers won't really do well. Mesmers have way too many things to hit also, and your Warriors aren't gonna be hitting much in a Ward. Oh, and good luck splitting when VoD is 18 minutes and you don't really have the time allocation to do anything to a decent effect, and an SoR guy can just maintain.

PS. The skill required to be successful in this game now is 20 times lower than it was a year ago.

Edit: Spike Builds were pretty annoying, but it's not like people don't run them now either. They just run Adrenal spike and then mask it saying they play balanced, when all they do is count in reverse from 3 down to 1. Absolutely no difference except the capability of the build, but the way the majority play it is far from balanced.

Farin · Sep 08, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Spike Builds were pretty annoying, but it's not like people don't run them now either. They just run Adrenal spike and then mask it saying they play balanced, when all they do is count in reverse from 3 down to 1. Absolutely no difference except the capability of the build, but the way the majority play it is far from balanced.

So true. I also would like to say that vanq is probably the best player with SoR.

Blame the Monks · Sep 08, 2007, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by just call me jimmy

COW was prob my favorite team to watch!!!!!!!!
Cow showed everyone what true GVG was all about. Decide your build, then go out a totally crush your opponent. They disbanded and sold their guild in May.

cow 4 evar

P.S. Cow was never sold. Invites were sold during a 3 day burst of drama, then promptly kicked.

Signet Of Hell · Sep 08, 2007, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by just call me jimmy

Like I said please close.

I have no idea what I am talking about is probably the most brutal statement yet.

I am asking questions, not talking about anything. It seem as though you attack me to keep away from the the questions I asked.

The most funny part about this is you have no idea who I am.

Would i t make a difference if I was from IQ, QQ, TE, COW ?

Actually yes it would, enough said.

Oh and Lemming, why don;t you watch a few observers!!!!!!! Instead of being an idiot.

I asked three simple questions. The combined IQ of all of the posters is "wow attack jimmy" "he has no clue" "your chart was obnoxious"
"nerfing spikes= good"

Actually the 4 of you answered my questions , the problem is you have no idea how well!!

They answered your questions simply. They weren't very good questions, anyway. Theres no need to get so defensive, welcome to the world of forums!

[cow] are still so high because they got an awesome rating, and why should they be ditched from the top 100 if they were so successful? sure no ones in it, but it gives people the memory of them/the urge to get past them on the ladder. You can't just chuck them off the top 100 coz they don't play anymore.

imo, stop crying because you can't spike and learn how to gvg.

Maiyn · Sep 08, 2007, 07:20 AM // 07:20

I laugh about the ladder these days, maybe like 20% of the guilds are actually active. Sadly, I don't think I'm exaggerating too greatly there either.

I agree with Vanquisher personally, the good gvg died over a year ago. I think freezing the ladder completely with no adequate replacement in a timely manner, and the release of nightfall were probably two of the final factors that delivered major killing blows to the gvg community.

Don't get me wrong, I still love to gvg, but it's definitely not the same.

v o i d · Sep 08, 2007, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

New ladder is worthless. There's ridiculously little point in playing it unless trying to grind out a few Champ Points. Any real testing is generally done vs. other good Guilds who you're unlikely to face on ladder.

True.

Quote:

New AT system is equally poor in comparison to the GWWC/GWFC events. Who exactly remembers the winner of, say, June's AT, who they beat, what Builds were run, how close it came, etc? I'm just guessing here, but I'm going to go ahead and make the assumption that WM vs. LuM, when WM had both Monks DP'ed out, and ran LuM around Druids for a long while, in the semi-final in Taipei, before securing a morale boost and winning the game to go through in the end was far better.

Also true. However, from a financial point of view i can understand ANet's decision; i really doubt the GWWC/GWFC events payed off. Guild Wars was never designed to get played out of the box in a LAN, which is the main reason for its competitive failure. Considering this and the fact that we play a two year old game, ATs (with the chance of winning real-life prices) are fine. I would have loved to see GW as big e-sport title, but it just won't happen.

Quote:

You have this class, that has huge armor, and puts buffs on your entire party, with no energy woes, while outputting a high amount of damage (hi, Paragons)

Aggressive Refrain is overpowered, which is the reason Paragons are overpowered.

Quote:

Then you have skills like Aegis, which have such a hugely beneficial effect it warrants a much greater cost than the current one.

If you hit Aegis, physical pressure builds will blow you into pieces.

Quote:

Then you get to Dervishes. AoMel. still hasn't been fixed well enough, and Wearying Strike is still incredibly broken.

Since the VoD changes, this isn't such an issue anymore. Sure, you totally kick ass when your avatar is up - but you suck hard when it isn't. Right now i even prefer a second warrior over this guy.

Quote:

You've also got SoD, and SoR, neither of which are really interruptable, unless you get lucky (k, you can claim to know they were gonna cast it, but you don't know exactly when, so...).

SoD is overpowered, SoR isn't.

Quote:

Wards are another key contributor to the poor state of the game in offensive terms. Mantra of Recovery is stupid in that it completely defies the point of balancing skills based on recharge. So what if it's elite? You can use at least 5 skills to a much greater effect with it, and with a Ward there you save however many attribute points while being able to maintain it.

Wards on eles are perfectly fine, but i have to admit on MoR mesmers it becomes nasty. On the other hand, for an additional pressure character you lose Draw, Convert and BSurge. Maybe increase the cost for MoR.

Quote:

And it's not like you can reliably interrupt all of this. What with Shields Up, chained Aegis, Def. Anthem, your Rangers won't really do well. Mesmers have way too many things to hit also, and your Warriors aren't gonna be hitting much in a Ward. Oh, and good luck splitting when VoD is 18 minutes and you don't really have the time allocation to do anything to a decent effect, and an SoR guy can just maintain.

Good teams kill through this stuff or gain advantages by splitting. End of story.

Quote:

PS. The skill required to be successful in this game now is 20 times lower than it was a year ago.

This is too generalized. A year ago nearly noone had the idea to actually interrupt a melee ward with mesmer interrupts, but brought Warrior's Cunning. A good year ago people wiped all npcs with a single Meteor Shower or won tournaments with FoC spike. The only reason why it might have become easier, is the reduced number of talented players who play this game.

From a balance point of view, Guild Wars was really good right before Factions came out. It was the same right before Nightfall came out. And it is the same now.

Dzan · Sep 08, 2007, 12:39 PM // 12:39

No one really cares about ladder position except posibly the guild ranked #101. What matters in GVG is tournament play, and pretty much every top guild will agree with that.

Blame the Monks · Sep 08, 2007, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by v o i d

A year ago nearly noone had the idea to actually interrupt a melee ward with mesmer interrupts, but brought Warrior's Cunning. A good year ago people wiped all npcs with a single Meteor Shower or won tournaments with FoC spike.

Erm, are you kidding? This is completely wrong.

People have been interrupting wards since the beta. The reason why warrior's cunning even got mentioned in Te v Evil was "hiding" it with frenzy, and for no other reason. Other than that match, I don't think anyone else ever used that tactic. As for vodway or SR powered crap, that was just using broken mechanics to beat superior teams. iQ ran vodway because they understood the game better than the rest of us. Its that simple. It was degenerate and boring, but it was great strategy. The mechanics allowed/encouraged it, and still do for the most part.

There is no debate teams a year ago were better. The meta took much more skill and there was much better competition. Just look at the best teams today, and realize even 6 months ago the same roster wasn't even a serious contender, and only became a contender once the teams above them quit. There are some good teams still left, but the 20-100 range is completely dead. Look at how many trash guilds have finished top 16 in monthly ATs. There are at max like 5 teams per server with a pulse, regardless of skill level. Anet mismanged, stalled, and generally pissed away the best competitive platform that has come out in years, and transformed it into wow for people to poor, lazy, or uncommitted to pay wow's monthly fee.

Build Wars: Where time spent playing the game after all the good people quit equals skill.

v o i d · Sep 08, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Erm, are you kidding? This is completely wrong.

People have been interrupting wards since the beta.

The first mesmer i can remember running PLeak in high end GvG was Tarlisin from [emt], who now monks for us. Old top teams like iB or EvIL didn't even run mesmer 0.25 interrupts or brought them very late. But hey, just check the GWFC skill charts on the official site, have a look at 'Fizzles' for melee wards (or Aegis) and you'll see who is wrong here.

Quote:

The reason why warrior's cunning even got mentioned in Te v Evil was "hiding" it with frenzy, and for no other reason. Other than that match, I don't think anyone else ever used that tactic.

Someone forgot EW adrenaline spike?

Quote:

As for vodway or SR powered crap, that was just using broken mechanics to beat superior teams. iQ ran vodway because they understood the game better than the rest of us. Its that simple. It was degenerate and boring, but it was great strategy.

Wait, that means what?

Quote:

The mechanics allowed/encouraged it, and still do for the most part.

When was the last time you played a GvG?

Blame the Monks · Sep 08, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by v o i d

Old top teams like iB or EvIL didn't even run mesmer 0.25 interrupts or brought them very late.

I don't really remember the meta in the GWFC and cba to look it up. But I can show you screenshots of my mesmer against ZPZG running pdrain, gale, surge, burn, shatter, drain, blackout, and ressurect. That's in 2005, and that bar more or less has been run for longer than that nonstop to today, given nerfs and metagame variations. And wards have never really been prominent, certainly not like aegis chains were. Its true that mesmers sometimes just relied on gale rather than interrupts tho, because gale + blackout was so strong and a 1/2 second cast 3 second KD is better than an interrupt most of the time anyhow. And remember the old blackout/interrupt cripshot that was a staple until they nerfed it multiple times? Maybe euros didn't interrupt, but americans have used interrupts on rangers and dom mesmers for years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by v o i d

When was the last time you played a GvG?

About 6 months after the game took no skill. But meh. Some people say its better, most say its the same old shit. Too little too late, even it they made an effort to save it at the end.

Vanquisher · Sep 08, 2007, 10:15 PM // 22:15

I'm pretty sure Eun Jong and De Vil used to run interrupts. So did Skills, Kriegar, Gaebeggi, Trex (and that was in 2005), whoever played Mes for Uni and ZPZG in 2005. I don't know if Rayne did in iQ's Gale-lock Build or not. I also remember iQ running P-Block vs. EP in GWWC qualifiers to stop them spiking.

Quote:

Aggressive Refrain is overpowered, which is the reason Paragons are overpowered.

Balance is an issue of cost vs. benefit. I'm pretty sure skills like Def Anthem have a massive benefit in comparison to the cost. Likewise Aegis, Wards, Shield's Up, etc. All these forms of passive defense lessen the skill required to play at a decent level.

Quote:

Good teams kill through this stuff or gain advantages by splitting. End of story.

They did before also. Fact still remains that 18 minutes is too short a VoD time.

Quote:

SoD is overpowered, SoR isn't.

It should be one of the following; non-maintainable or interruptable.

Quote:

A good year ago people wiped all npcs with a single Meteor Shower or won tournaments with FoC spike.

I'm pretty sure that back then FoC Spike was utterly ridiculous on Imperial Isle. Maybe if you looked at how the skills/maps/mechanics were back then you'd see it too.

Maybe it's because you've personally had so much success since the vast majority of past top players have left that you're being ignorant as to how much more skill intensive the game was before, or maybe you honestly think it was, but I'm pretty sure sitting in a Ward ball with Aegis chain, Shield's Up, Watch Yourself, Defensive Anthem, and maybe just for kicks a B-Surge Ele and calling from 3 down to 1 in reverse doesn't really take anywhere near as much skill as the coordination required way beforehand, from a defensive standpoint at least. From an attacking standpoint, coordinating an interrupt on Ward is just something pretty regular, and with only 2 tactics at the moment really seeing a reliable amount of play (split and spike), I don't think it's anything like it was before.

And that's not saying vD is a bad Guild at all, before someone jumps on my back for it.