Curse

Hundbert · Aug 16, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

The anti leaver system that getting implemented soon is one thing. The changes to gladiator title another. Keep those two separated finalfan321. Thank you.

Master Ketsu · Aug 16, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

3v4 TA/RA matches are rarely won.

Wrong. if 2 are average players and 1 is good, they have a pretty good chance. Good players ( the few that exist ) are the equivalent of 2 people.

Ive won 3v4 many times, 2v4 occasionally,

and even 1v4 a few times( you dont even wanna know what the other team was running....:P )

A leecher in RA would get glads if a point per win is awarded.

Legendary Shiz · Aug 16, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I see nothing wrong with the current system to be honest, so far as TA is concerned. Making it 10 wins encourages a balanced build and active tactics in order to respond to different teams. Making it 5 means a team could just take in 4 A/Ws and probably come out with some glad points in a half hour. Unlikely such a scrubby build would last 10 wins.

Funny you'd say that, during the dead ours waaaaaaaaaaaaay long ago a couple of us would go in with our gogo Shove Sins and get 10 wins in like half an hour.

If it was set to give glads at 5 wins, that would just be ridiculous, and theres no way it would encourage balanced builds more than speed killing builds. There's no logic in saying it would encourage balance. Yes, balance might be able to go deeper (10,20,30 wins etc) however it would be achieved in double the time it would take for the quick killers to get 5-10 and eventually rack up the points faster.

Glads at 5 = terrible idea IMO.

Sab · Aug 16, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Your my hero Nurse.

I did phrase that badly though, so I am sorry. This is not a "we're doing this no matter what you say so

" situation. Please feel free to post your defense for the current system, I was simply trying to suggest you may also want to post some alternatives if you had them as well. If you've heard the saying "don't put all you eggs in one basket" I think you'll understand my intention. I hear you when you say you like the current system. I assure you I have sent links to this thread, as well as verbally passing your thoughts on. My only point is, there is a strong likelihood for a change and I very much want you to provide your thoughts and opinions on what that change may be before it is decided on. You guys have good heads on your shoulders, and I understand and respect your passion, I'm just trying to encourage a more open-minded discussion so we can try to find a system that works well for everyone. And if you don't think there is such a system, feel free to say that as well, but please support your statements with an explanation is all.

While it's nice and all to let us offer our suggestions, there are big questions that frustrate TAers because you haven't given us clear answers.

- Why make this title easier? As Ryan said in his talk page, making Glad points easier to obtain is* one of his goals. The Glad title track is a PvP title, and PvP titles are meant to be earned. Getting Glad 1 is *not* difficult, people just need to put in the effort. I got mine back when I was a PvE scrub who knew nothing about PvP. I did my research, looking up builds and sometimes making my own. When I could, I gathered a few friends for TA. And when I played, I'd learn from my mistakes and look for ways I could play better. These are the *very basics* of PvP, and they're what every beginner at PvP needs to learn. If they can't do that, then they don't deserve a PvP title, simple as that. There are plenty of titles in PvE for people who just want to see purple bars go up.

- Why is RA and TA linked? It's clear that most TAers don't want any changes to their title, as some people have played for over a year and don't want to see their efforts devalued. However, this contradicts with Ryan's goal of making the track easier to obtain. That is, making the title easier to get *means* devaluing the title for all, and you can't have one without the other. The only solution is to separate RA from TA, which brings me back to my question of why the upcoming changes have to affect both arenas.

- How much 4v4 experience does Ryan have? Or any devs who are involved with this, I suppose. The point is, if the devs aren't experienced in 4v4 (that's the impression I get so far), then why are they in charge of this update? It only makes sense for someone who TAs daily to be in that spot, as they need to understand these problems and solutions inside out.

Byron · Aug 16, 2007, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Playing balanced is certainly not the way to farm glad points in TA right now IMO.

Yeah, but that's more about skill abuse. The deadly paradox line of skill chains is remarkably dumb imo. It works for damaging skills like thrown dagger attacks and entangling asp which, I think, goes against its design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

There's no logic in saying it would encourage balance.

We're agreeing that 10 wins would encourage better gameplay than 5 wins, right? 5 wins means go go touch ranger groups. 10 wins means at least some thought is necessary, imo.

lacasner · Aug 16, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Wait, this is new to me..who wants the title to become easier to obtain? And more importantly why?

erk · Aug 16, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

I spend most of my time on GW playing RA or GvG, I do little of anything else in the game as the PvE novelty wore off about March when I knew Nightfall inside out. Of course I have pre-ordered EotN, however RA is still the thing I spend the most time in. Proposal 1 would destroy RA and make it into hopeless one win farming like HA. Proposals 2 or 3 are more acceptable though I have fought hard for my Glad points and it would upset me to see the value of the title diminish like the double title faction rewards did to the AB. I know many people that put in hundreds of hours in AB to get to a reasonable title, only to see people catch them with half the effort. Please don't do it to the Gladiator titles.

Patrick Smit · Aug 17, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

I spend most of my time on GW playing RA or GvG, I do little of anything else in the game as the PvE novelty wore off about March when I knew Nightfall inside out. Of course I have pre-ordered EotN, however RA is still the thing I spend the most time in. Proposal 1 would destroy RA and make it into hopeless one win farming like HA. Proposals 2 or 3 are more acceptable though I have fought hard for my Glad points and it would upset me to see the value of the title diminish like the double title faction rewards did to the AB. I know many people that put in hundreds of hours in AB to get to a reasonable title, only to see people catch them with half the effort. Please don't do it to the Gladiator titles.

Most people who got high faction titles farmed faction using quests, not by AB. I got a reasonable title at that time, but for a "PvE" title the change was correct to my opinion i didnt mind. We however agree that any change to glad is not so nice and necessary. Any one who devotes a little time can become a gladiator, it doesnt need to become more simple as it is already accessible.

glountz · Aug 17, 2007, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Wrong. if 2 are average players and 1 is good, they have a pretty good chance. Good players ( the few that exist ) are the equivalent of 2 people.

Ive won 3v4 many times, 2v4 occasionally,

and even 1v4 a few times( you dont even wanna know what the other team was running....:P )

A leecher in RA would get glads if a point per win is awarded.

At least yesitsrob agreed that it was unlikely. You are entitled to your opinion, but leeching a title based on winning is not really productive.
A 3v4 battle is really harder to win than a 7v8 one or a 11v12 one. Seriously.
The odds to win 3v4 are very low. So I would be glad to see you back up your "many times" "occasionnaly" with some true stats, okay?
The only times you can win 3v4 is when your opposite team have no heal, is trash, and you are a good balanced 3v4 team (a disrupter, a healer, a heavey damage dealer). By leaching a whole day RA, you will probably win no glad point, given the rest of your party will just leave or do nothing if they see a leecher and an anti leaver system is implemented.
That's very different than from dragon arena, where everyone has the same skillbar no matter what with insta kill skills. The 3v4 opposition matters a lot less here (given that you only lack one copy of the same skillbar) than in RA.
Glads points need to be stuck for TA. Or keep Glads for RA and create a new TA title. Because, wether you believe it or not, TA is IMO one of the best PvP experience, with a lot of different builds, and with a lot of skill involved. It needs its own title. Whereas RA don't need anything.

Cass · Aug 17, 2007, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

"Fresh air" as in "easy glad farming" ?

You prefer it to be a tedious leave leave leave AH MONK gogo affair I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hayashi

And you posting here just want the glad title turned to dust.

The trend for pvp recruitment guild is to recruit r3 / g1. You know why its not r3/g3? Yea, value.

I'll repeat that the title is largely meaningless and proposal #1 would open the arenas for nice PvP. I am not concerned with devaluing per se.

In any case. Value... that's RICH. It's glad1/rank3 because gladiator title is irrelevant beyond showing you have dipped your toes in 'some form of PvP' before. R2, 3, and higher just show you're a rabid solist, in fact someone not likely to get on well in a proper team of 8.
In the best possible case you're a TA player (one of the 10 people who play that) and then it comes down to running the lamest rock-paper-scissor trash that happens to maximize wins at any given time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyGiant

RA is a casual arena for newbies, testing build and the casual pvper.

There should be small reward for playing. (entry level pvp)

1 point per game, title = high grind (time played) does not show/count for anything so why have it.

TA is more skillful play yet receives the same reward, I ask you why? It's only marginally faster points for probably 5% who play in there, the rest struggle to earn points in there since it requires skill. (therefore they leave/sync RA and earn points almost as quick as those 5% who get them regularly in TA)

A small reward + being bored = nice. That's why.

TA, even if it were more skillful, gets you a bigger reward as you get to play in an organized team and you can farm RA teams and other smalltime guilds who fail at getting 8 people interested in PvP. The reward is the same per win, but you win a lot more if you play there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanthar

I know you were not here at that point, but let me tell you something that happened a long time ago: In the misty dark ages of GW there were no rewards for RA. No title. No faction, no ranks, not even experience points. Priests of Balthazar were unheard of - All your unlocks came from PvE.

In these primitive times, people still played RA. In my opinion, they played because they enjoyed the game. In your opinion, they were probably just crazy.

Titles are an illusion - A trick to extend the lifetime of a game. They are a in-game manisfestation of epeen. No one who plays the game for the fun of playing the game need any titles - Indeed they would keep playing without any rewards, as the gameplay is a reward in itself. The players who crave titles are interested in something other than the game itself - I'll venture to say that they want affirmation. Social standing in comparison to others.

Now, there is a practical use for titles if they are seen as badges of merit within the community. For any such use to be practical, the titles must reflect (at least partially) player skill. This is not in fact true for either the gladiator title, nor rank at the moment, since even a bad player can attain the maximum rank given infinite an time investment - If you can get one single point, you can linearly project how much time it will take you to max out the title.

If I were to make any change to the PvP titles (which, obviously, I am not) I would devise a system that demanded an increase in skill for each level of the title. This way the title would have a meaning beyond the status enhancement and acknowledgment of time spent it currently serves as. (See my post above for my actual suggestion)

Oh you know I was not around then, do you? Actually you don't, and you are wrong, so drop the cute attitude.

I am actually not in disagreement with what you said. Titles are pretty silly, sure. As I said, the reward would be small, and it would be small incentive, but an incentive nonetheless.

Don't come to me with talk about how titles should be disregarded altogether and such. In an RPG like GW, there is a role for status symbols, and almost everyone plays that game... armor, weapons, cape, titles. None of these affect gameplay yet they are at the center of the game.

As for people playing RA when it served no purpose; the game was newer then, there was a lot less to do. Still, I do think you'd have to be fairly crazy to willingly dip into the pool of filth that is RA, yeah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Bots could enter as afkers, spam maybe one skill, and get glads faster then anyone else.

Taking away the requirement to win consecutively, and you take away the skill required to get it. I find it hard to believe anyone with glad 1 or higher cannot see this.

Proposition 1 is complete and utter trash that would spell doom for the title. Please stop failing to see why.

Bots? LOL To farm what? Glad rank?? WTS Glad 3 account? Come on now. Bots farm gold, not titles. Leeching in AB is because bots want amber/jade.

Patrick Smit · Aug 17, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

...
Bots? LOL To farm what? Glad rank?? WTS Glad 3 account? Come on now. Bots farm gold, not titles. Leeching in AB is because bots want amber/jade.

Not really, efficiency would be too low compared to normal farming, it could be from 2 k faction to somewhere near 8-10 k
that would mean max 180*10 gold per hour, not anywhere near normal farming I presume.
Leeching is solely used to AFK farm faction

BlackSephir · Aug 17, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

You prefer it to be a tedious leave leave leave AH MONK gogo affair I guess.

Did you miss the part where leavers are punished? No more leave leave leave AH MONK gogo affair :/
Ty for trying, try again.
[Insert Coin]

Divineshadows · Aug 17, 2007, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Edit: I will add that you are not very likely to win matches if it's 3v4, but the odds are still high enough to make people consider doing it.

The odds are 100% that a leecher bot would win a glad point under proposal number one whenever there is a leecher on each team. Proposal one would increase the number of leechers that this would happen very frequently.

Cherng Butter · Aug 17, 2007, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

It's really uneasy to win with a non healed team

No it isn't...it's not easy to get 10 without a monk/rit, but it's pretty easy to get 5...

lacasner · Aug 17, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

A small reward + being bored = nice. That's why.

TA, even if it were more skillful, gets you a bigger reward as you get to play in an organized team and you can farm RA teams and other smalltime guilds who fail at getting 8 people interested in PvP. The reward is the same per win, but you win a lot more if you play there.

Faction is a reward..and thats all it should be in RA.

Stop farming scrubs, go to TA, and let's see what your made of.

Orange Milk · Aug 17, 2007, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

In the best possible case you're a TA player (one of the 10 people who play that) and then it comes down to

Well Cass you have proven to me that you have no idea what your talking about. Mabye you should go to TA sometime and look around, Not only do more than 10 people TA, but there are more than 10 guilds who TA as a a team on a daily basis.

Quote:

People posting here just seem to want their silly gladiator title to become MORE valuable so they want to see RA without benefit, so that the title becomes more exclusive. Glad title = "Bored Was I" title anyway, something to get when you have no or few friends around. Open it up already... fresh air would do these arenas good.

I shall assume from this quote CAss, as well as you other arrogant spitefull post, that you neither have a Glad title nor any friends around. Wanting to have the Glad title cheapened out of Spite is not a valid reason. Take Black Sephirs advice and insert another coin and try again.

Quote:

About te leavers in ra. I've done it myself... I needed 2 points for my next title and just lost 2 times at 9, i got frustrated and made the last 2 by being a leaver. But i want to get rid of the leavers too. It must

Well Finalfan321, you yourself are an admitted leaver, yet you want to punish leavers, good call, nice job. If it were up to me right now I'd certainly have those 2 glad points removed as punishment. But Honestly I'd like to here form you, you want them punished and you are one, what do you think is a fair punishment for your actions?

I've been readiing up on this whole issue in every thread and forum I can find. I've found out a few things, first off it was not ANets goal, to start with, to cheapen the title. This whole thing got started as the decided to come up with a way to punsh leavers/leechers in PvP arenas, which ALOT of folks complain about. They then looked at the fact that IF you can not leave you WILL spend more time a team that will not win 10 games in a row. Thats where the decisionwas made to ease the requirements to the title. So you see they did not set out to eff things up, there were honstly looking for an improvemnt. The second thing I have learned is that these ideas were formed with fixinf RA in mind, beliveing simply that if the system works now for both, it will then too. Upon futher review of this, proposals 2 and 3 were born. Thanks for looking into things, but I feel you are over complicating a simple issuse, fixing the leavers.

Run a trial period with the "leaver punishments" in place and the 10 win Glad point still in place. the vast majority has agreed with doing something about them no matter what else they have said about the title track. Track the numbers, see if the number of glad points awarded in RA drops, stays the same, or goes higher. If the numbers drop, then looking it the title requierments may be nessecary.

Right now your playing 5 card draw poker, you have an Ace, two Kings, and 2 10's, instead of betting your dropping the Kings and 10's for a whole slew of unknowns hopeing to improve on that Ace. When realy you already have a good hand and droping one card, one simple change, is all thats needed. 2 pair can hold its own without anything else alot of times, so if you end up with a duece, who cares, you still have strong hand. just like RA/TA can continue on without anything changeing, although one little fix, like a 3rd king, full house, can net you a great thing over a good thing, instead of a whole mess of unkowns.

(for those of you that dont play poker, Instead of replacing all the bulbs in a string of Christmas lights that are not working a handful at a time, start with one, and work your way around until the problem is solved, cuase who knows, some of those your throwing out prolly worked pretty damn well)

Master Ketsu · Aug 17, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

At least yesitsrob agreed that it was unlikely. You are entitled to your opinion, but leeching a title based on winning is not really productive.
A 3v4 battle is really harder to win than a 7v8 one or a 11v12 one. Seriously.
The odds to win 3v4 are very low. So I would be glad to see you back up your "many times" "occasionnaly" with some true stats, okay?
The only times you can win 3v4 is when your opposite team have no heal, is trash, and you are a good balanced 3v4 team (a disrupter, a healer, a heavey damage dealer). By leaching a whole day RA, you will probably win no glad point, given the rest of your party will just leave or do nothing if they see a leecher and an anti leaver system is implemented.
That's very different than from dragon arena, where everyone has the same skillbar no matter what with insta kill skills. The 3v4 opposition matters a lot less here (given that you only lack one copy of the same skillbar) than in RA.

For the record, I win 3v4 matches about 50% of the time.

It will be very possible to afk farm glad ranks.

Quote:

Bots? LOL To farm what? Glad rank?? WTS Glad 3 account? Come on now. Bots farm gold, not titles. Leeching in AB is because bots want amber/jade.

Glad rank = +5000 faction cap, thus increasing their overall ability to leech.

Just because you see it as worthless doesnt mean other's do.

Quote:

In any case. Value... that's RICH. It's glad1/rank3 because gladiator title is irrelevant beyond showing you have dipped your toes in 'some form of PvP' before. R2, 3, and higher just show you're a rabid solist, in fact someone not likely to get on well in a proper team of 8.
In the best possible case you're a TA player (one of the 10 people who play that) and then it comes down to running the lamest rock-paper-scissor trash that happens to maximize wins at any given time.

This thread is about changing the way the glad title works to fix the problems stated by andrew, not smack talking TA and RA in general. Dont even try to pretend HA doesnt have similar problems. At this age in the game their are plenty of tigers running around who got most of their fame running sfway, Iway, ect. I wouldnt trust them to have an idea of what they are doing anymore then the average TA pug.

Lorekeeper · Aug 17, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

so basically Anets solution to leavers is not to solve the problem by removing the reason WHY people leave but by giving an incentive to the would be leavers to not leave because if they stay and survive for 5 matches they get a glad point?

but seriously, although winning 10 matches in a row with an RA team is difficult to say the least without some semblance of some good skills bars and at least a healer whether its a rit or a monk, is winning 5 matches that much easier that would be leavers would stay whether they thought their team could survive for 10 matches?

This is the biggest question above all. How likely is it that 4 randomly selected players could survive against 5 other teams of 4 randomly selected players?

If i knew i was entering with only a pool of highly skilled players i would be quite confident that the other 3 players in my RA team would be exceptional skirmish players with self survival skills and the ability to mitigate dmg and not tank it as if they had all the healing in the world behind them, i would certainly not leave my RA team if it didnt have any real healers. But RA does not have this pool of highly skilled players. Its random, i could be teamed up with a monk/ele using water snares. I could be teamed up with a paragon/necro using curse hexes. I could be teamed up with the best players in the game. Fact is, when i enter RA i have no idea how good my teammates are, so in interest of making the best out of my time i would rather assume they are bad and will die without proper healing and leave the team - enter again until i get a healer, at least with the healer my team might survive long enough for us to find out whether any of us are any good at all. Without a healer its extremely difficult to judge whether your team is any good, unless you got teamed up with the best of the best. But do you have the time to waste staying in the fight to find out? Not everyone has hours and hours to play the game. If someone has a limited amount of time to play they probably dont want to spend it wasting time with hopeless teammates and losing miserably.

All of the above is a symptom of the fact that you can acquire glad titles in RA. It has lost its casual appeal, by giving players a way to achieve points in RA its become far more competitive than it should be. RA should be a place to go have some fun, go run a completely whacky skill bar and try to kill someone with it, go experiment with crazy combinations that you dont get to use in other arenas because people would only laugh at you. But because alot of people play RA to get farm champ points RA has lost this casual nature. People farming glad points dont want to be teamed up with people who have just started PvP who have very simple and often bad skill bars. They dont want to be teamed up with players who are experimenting with their latest whacky build. They want a team with proven, effective skill bars because those are the ones that will most likely win their way to consecutive wins.

Im afraid you will never solve the leaving problem in RA while RA is still a place that awards the same Glad points as TA. You basically just integrated a highly competitive TA attitude into RA and because of the random nature of RA we witness an abundance of leavers.

If you make punishments for leaving harsh, but you dont change the glad point system all you would see are players entering a fight.... see their hopeless teammates... and just go afk or suicide themselves to throw the match so they can then reenter and try again. Some might even /resign. The odds of having a team that can survive well without proper healing are extremely low. I know if i run a warrior bar in RA i need to bring mend touch and heal signet. But i cant be sure that other players do the same with their bars. A huge proportion of RA players operate under the assumption that they will be fighting with healing support, so when they dont get the healing support they leave. Im not about to waste my time carrying a team of inept frenzy spammers through 5 strenuous matches so that they can be awarded with a glad point.

So far, ive not seen ONE clear argument presented by anyone at Anet why RA and TA need to share the same point system.

If RA didnt have a point system i would still use it to run experimental builds. I would still go there to let off some steam and relax in a completely non-competitive atmosphere. I would still go there to run some whacky builds that i know i wouldnt be allowed to run anywhere else. I would still go to RA for the reasons why RA should exist in the first place. I would stll go play monk there to test my adaptation skills as a monk when faced with a huge variety of dmg sources.

I wont stop going to RA because i cant get glad points there. If i was serious about getting a gladiator title i would call up some PvP friends, make a proper 4 man build and go compete in TA.

All those people who stop going to RA because they no longer can get glad points there can always go to TA. Its not like they have NO access to the glad title at all anymore.

And if you argue that winning glad points in TA would be very difficult for a inexperienced PvPer and that even the newest PvPers should have access to a PvP title then that just supports the idea that RA should have its own title track. Earning a high title in RA might make it easier for RA players to make the break into TA. But only if the RA title was meaningful. 1 point per win is not a meaningful title.

kvndoom · Aug 17, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Good post, Lore. Like I said earlier (or maybe in another thread), a cap would do good too. Get rank 2, 50 glad points, and then bam, no more from RA. 50 glad points means you have won, at minimum, 500 matches. That's assuming no losses at all, so realistically you're probably played 1500 matches or more to get those 50 points. If you haven't grasped the concept of 4v4 PVP after 1500 matches and 500 wins, then you don't deserve any advancement towards your title. Even going to TA and PUGging will give you good experience and make you a better player.

Andrew Patrick · Aug 17, 2007, 09:06 PM // 21:06

We have been gathering feedback from the forums and Ryan's talk page and the designers are working on tweaks to the proposals to hopefully address many of your concerns. As soon as they work out all the numbers I will let you guys know what they are looking at now. They are very carefully monitoring these discussions and are definitely keeping TA players in mind while trying to find a system that works well for both the hard core and the casual players.