Curse

Legolas El · Aug 16, 2007, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Within a few weeks we will be implementing a system that takes action against players who continually leave prior to the end of battles in PvP. This has been requested for quite some time, so we hope it addresses the problem. However, we also wish to ensure that when the anti-leaver system is implemented, players are not in a position where they feel we are punishing them for using the “best way” to get points towards the Gladiator title (i.e., continually leaving groups until you get into one that has a reasonable chance to get 10 wins in a row.) The way we hope to accomplish this is to reward players for each win or for smaller winning streaks so players are more concerned about “Can we win this fight?” rather than “Can we win this fight and the next 9 fights?” Our hope is that players would then be more likely to at least finish the battle they are on before returning to the outpost if they decide to join a different team.

The intention of this change is not to make the Gladiator Title easier to achieve, the designers are simply trying to change the way one acquires that title so that the system no longer punishes, or wastes the time of, those who stay on a team that is unlikely to have long winning streaks. The required points-per-rank in the title track would be increased to reflect the increase to the amount of points being given, and current title holder’s number of Gladiator Points would be increased proportionately as well.

Ok lmao,

When you join a team in Ra you are agreeing to be randomly teamed with a group of players, a players time is not being 'wasted' simply because they will be forced to stay with the RANDOM team they chose to join.

If a player wants to pick the composition of the team they can goto Ta...

The overcomplication of this issue is kinda silly imo .

Ok er option # 32

1) Keep the current Glad point reward system in Ra and Ta as is, 10 consecutive wins = 1 Glad point.
2) Players leaving matches before they end will receive stacking 1 minute timeouts from arena play. ie... leave 1 match ~ timed out for 1 minute, leave 2 , you have to wait 2 minutes to join another etc ...This can be based on an hour format with each new case of leaving extending that hour from the last time the player left a match early.
3) Allow players to leave the team after each match and before the next one starts with NO penalty.

Awarding players for 1 game wins without awarding winners of 10 consecutive HUGE point bonuses will certainly make the Glad title "easier".

As you say yourself the LEAVERS situation is what has been complained about, not the current reward system.

Ok ?

Hyunsai · Aug 16, 2007, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legolas El

As you say yourself the LEAVERS situation is what has been complained about, not the current reward system.

QFT. I couldn't agree more... If the leaver problem is fixed, as they said they would, I don't see why they want to change the system...

Lorekeeper · Aug 16, 2007, 10:58 AM // 10:58

well apparently Anet believe that the current reward system IS the reason behind the leavers in RA.

It does make sense. If you want to get 10 winning streaks in RA you need to be pretty confident your team will be able to stick it out for that long. If you are not confident of this... you might aswell leave because surviving for 6-7 wins and losing the 7th-8th match is a complete waste of time.

So if you only needed to win 5 consecutives, the challenge is relatively easier. They hope that only needing 5 wins for a point will get rid of the leavers.

Unfortunately,under the current glad point rank system reducing the challenge and the number of wins needed for a gladiator point DOES make it EASIER to achieve.

Their solution? Increase the requirements for each rank, therefore by halving the amount of wins needed for a glad point will not equate to halving the time needed to gain a rank in gladiator.

But basically whats happening is a numbers game. What Anet seem to be ignoring is the nature of the actual achievement of winning in PvP, in RA and TA. It will be much easier to gain a gladiator point in RA/TA, winning 5 consecs is pretty possible even with the most horrible of teams, especially if they have a monk to drag their way through the matches. Easier glad points and higher point requirements for glad ranks = tedious grind and a worthless title.

Im sorry but just about anyone will be able to get this title, and by the sounds of things making the title more 'accessible' is Anet speak for 'we want everyone to be able to get the title'.

Im afraid this doesnt cut it with PvPers who arent interested in easy to get titles. Me, as a PvPer myself, get most satisfaction knowing that when i do achieve a higher rank in a PvP title, that rank is an indication of a worthy achievement, an indication of my progession as a player in terms of skill and experience.

The current Gladiator title is not this, and the newly proposed Gladiator title will not be either.

Why?

Simple reason, its grindable in RA, RA is basically a rolldice arena. The entering/leaving behaviour is almost identical to rolling two 6-sided dice and getting a gold star when you roll a double. You keep on rolling until you get the doubles... and you just keep going until you get tired or bored.

Anet want PvP to be accessible to more players, and they seem to think that giving rewards at the lowest end of the PvP arenas is the bait needed to attract more players.

Im in total disagreement with this approach. The attractiveness of PvP should be the glory and achievements of its highest levels. Players should be attracted to PvP because they see that if they try hard enough, practice long enough and become highly experienced and skilled at the game, they will reap the rewards from it. Champion points in GvG, Gold/Silver/Bronze Trims, High rank in TA and HA, get to top 100 GvG and get observed by all players in GW, become a famous name.

By making titles grindable Anet is just making PvP another farming area for the PvE approach to the game where time spent grinding = titles/wealth.

I am in total disagreement with this approach. It encourages the wrong type of gaming philosophy and it puts into question the real achievements of PvPers who want worthwhile titles in PvP.

But unfortunately this move is very much in line with Anets marketing strategy. The PvE market is by far their priority, their main source of sales. By making PvP titles more accessible to PvEers who are already accustomed to the 'time spent grinding=titles' philosophy they do well to promote the game for these types of players which will hopefully for them equate to more sales.

From the outset, Anets attempt to link PvP and PvE has been their ultimate and greatest misgiving. I can only interpret these changes as ones that turn an aspect of PvP into yet another farmable title thats accessible to PvEers because it holds NO real value for the PvPer.

I used to respect the gladiator title, especially the higher ranked players that i knew had not grinded their way to it in RA. (Alot of GvG guilds play TA for training purposes). However as time has gone by, ive found it harder to respect the title because i know it can be grinded in RA with ease. So noone with a glad title gains any respect or admiration from me anymore.

Anet do you want ANY of your titles to actually mean ANYTHING anymore?

At the moment the champ title is the only one left with any meaning.

I fear the day you try to make this title more accessible to more players.

Legolas El · Aug 16, 2007, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Then Anet should research a bit ;

The reasons there are leavers in Ra are fairly simple...

Leavers =

1) Players searching for a team they think can win 10.

2) Syncers ><

3) Players that do it just to be a nuisance, or think its funny.

LuckyGiant · Aug 16, 2007, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

You guys have good heads on your shoulders, and I understand and respect your passion, I'm just trying to encourage a more open-minded discussion

Ok so lets have an open minded discussion

I'm interested in your guys view of the situtation so we can help and give feedback then.

This is what you guys have identified as the three main problems, correct?
- Too many leavers in RA
- Low level gladiator title too unobtainable for the casual player.
- Long matches due to grieving runner etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

There is a separate method planned to actually prevent leavers.

To deal with the first problem. Can you please share with us the planned method to prevent leavers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

The change to the title are not intended to prevent leavers, it is meant to function better in the Arenas after the anti-leaver/anti-leecher mechanics are implemented.

The second problem is the main one most of the experienced players are struggling with. First I think everyone would agree with me when i say TA is a higher standard than RA because more experienced players go there. Anet should use this "restructuring" of RA/TA as an opportunity to improve both, not just RA at the cost of TA.

Why not effectively create 2 titles using the one title track?

I'm proposing increased reward for TA in compensation for the increased difficulty, but hear me out

. Coupled with changes to the title track when the first say 6 ranks are reasonably easy to obtain (low requirements relative to the way in which you recieve points) while later ranks increase exponentially in such a way that players need to "progress" to TA if they want to increase their title (or do it slower continually farming RA).

Points are given for each 5 win consecutive streak in some ratio:
eg: RA = 1 point per streak, TA = 3 points per streak.

Some points conversion, approximately 10 would be the fair number for people that have gained them under TA methods :/ Since I would say I have been to 10+ wins at least as many times as I have been to 5-9 wins. But unfortunately under RA methods you should only be getting 1/3 as much for a conversion rate so i'm not sure what goes on here. Whatever the case those who TAed their points lose out.

Title Track
R1 = 25 points
R2 = 50 points
R3 = 90 points
R4 = 150 points
R5 = 220 points
R6 = 380 points
R7 = 700 points
R8 = 1000 points
R9 = 1600 points
R10 = 2500 points
R11 = 4000 points
R12 = 6000 points
R13 = 10000 points
R14 = 20000 points
etc

Note these numbers were pulled out my arse to give the example, so no point in arguing them. Anet run a simulation or whatever u do to get them.

Heres the logic for this system:
Let me start by saying casual players are low ranked (fact).
Consider the fame system, casual players can pug teams doing this they will almost be guaranteed to be below r6. If they want to advance reasonably far into the hero title they will need to join a HA guild.
The same reasoning applied to RA and TA since they are a pvp title, casual players of RA or pugging in TA should easily obtain a high number (say 5) while if striving to achieve better progress in the title firstly you would no longer be considered a casual player and secondly you would need to join a TA guild to gain high rank. Essentially dividing the title into 2.

Benefits:
- Has the desired effect on casual players making the gladiator points more obtainable.
- Has the desired effect on casual players making the gladiator title ranks more obtainable.
- THE KICKER, when the anti leaving method is implemented in the game what will happen to the RA sync/ glad farmers? Will they still want to continue to play in RA when they are forced to stay on every team with the mending warrior, minion master etc?
- A transition of RA --> TA is created so when players become more experienced they can go to TA.
- The increased reward for TA should draw RA point farmers out of RA making TA more competitive, hopefully leaving the newer RAers in peace to enjoy their matches. People should be given incentive to leave RA since it is beginners pvp and not stay there and farm newbies.
- People can relax in RA earning their unlocks while still earning points
- Gladiator title is not devalued to the point where its an alternative to the lightbringer

Disadvantages:
- People may like RA and not TA and if they want to gain a high rank they could be forced to TA. Hopefully this problem fixes iteslf, with a large influx of people in TA because the streaks required are reduced from 10 to 5 it is also easy for pugs to get a lot of points, currently this is not the case pugging would rarely result in 10 consecutive, hence TA is empty. TA would then become a lot more enjoyable for the average player since points are abundant (like fame).
- high ranked gladiator is not available to those that only RA. (this should be the case anyway, if you're seeking high ranked glad you are not a casual player! RA is casual mans pvp, it is the place for newbies to learn! It should be the stepping stone to TA, HA and GvG)
- probably overlooked some?
- with the introduction of anti leaver measures the people who sync RA and leave RA to farm glads are at a disadvantage but this is for the benefit of RA.

The Main problem I see with the Glad title:
TA is too hard to pug points! (this is the WHOLE cause of the problem). RA is not the casual pvp it once was! (resulting from people RA farming title instead of TA). Restore RA to its old self glory by the introduction of the anti leaver measures and send people who don't like this new RA (beginners/casual pvp) to the new TA where points are now easily attainable to people that pug.

The introduction of anti leaver methods will likely force the people who previously left matches somewhere else (TA, GvG, HA, Hero Battles) to advoid playing with the new players or players with sub-par builds in RA. This will leave RA with new players and casual players alike meaning it will finally become what it should be. This system helps promote this by making points in TA easier to achieve for everyone drawing the RA farmers and other pvp players to a more competitive TA leaving RA to be what it was designed for. Everyone hopefully receives the benefits of this system.

If Anet can't take anything meaning from my post please carefully consider the above 2 paragraphs. My proposal is probably not the best one out there, however addressing the problem in the above paragraphs is the solution to fixing RA/TA aat the same time and make them enjoyable to everyone (combined with the anti leaver measures of course).

Cass · Aug 16, 2007, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Option #1 seems best by a mile.

The others just punish you for playing RA, thus making the arena completely pointless. Sequential wins required for the little reward that's there (namely the title) is one thing, but forcing players to sit through wammos, healing breezers, earth tanks, escape rangers etc is quite another.

Make it a casual arena where a small reward is given for winning a (1) game. It's NOT as if this would give every Joe Toucher a high rank title. High title = massive 24/7 grind OR faster skillful play (in TA). Nothing wrong with that.

People posting here just seem to want their silly gladiator title to become MORE valuable so they want to see RA without benefit, so that the title becomes more exclusive. Glad title = "Bored Was I" title anyway, something to get when you have no or few friends around. Open it up already... fresh air would do these arenas good.

BlackSephir · Aug 16, 2007, 01:19 PM // 13:19

"Fresh air" as in "easy glad farming" ?

Hayashi · Aug 16, 2007, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Option #1 seems best by a mile.

The others just punish you for playing RA, thus making the arena completely pointless. Sequential wins required for the little reward that's there (namely the title) is one thing, but forcing players to sit through wammos, healing breezers, earth tanks, escape rangers etc is quite another.

Make it a casual arena where a small reward is given for winning a (1) game. It's NOT as if this would give every Joe Toucher a high rank title. High title = massive 24/7 grind OR faster skillful play (in TA). Nothing wrong with that.

People posting here just seem to want their silly gladiator title to become MORE valuable so they want to see RA without benefit, so that the title becomes more exclusive. Glad title = "Bored Was I" title anyway, something to get when you have no or few friends around. Open it up already... fresh air would do these arenas good.

And you posting here just want the glad title turned to dust. We dont want glad titles to become more valuable, as a matter of fact most of us want the lesser of the three evils. Even then our titles will get devalued.

The "little reward" that is glad title you speak of is purely opinionated. Sure if everyone think glad title is like lightbringer track everyone would have voted 1 already. But this is not just a "little reward"

The trend for pvp recruitment guild is to recruit r3 / g1. You know why its not r3/g3? Yea, value.

Patrick Smit · Aug 16, 2007, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Forcing people to stay ---> KILLLLLROYYYYY STONESKINNNNNNN

Really, forcing people to stay for the length of the fights isn't going to help, look at the illustrative text above.

LuckyGiant · Aug 16, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Option #1 seems best by a mile.

The others just punish you for playing RA, thus making the arena completely pointless. Sequential wins required for the little reward that's there (namely the title) is one thing, but forcing players to sit through wammos, healing breezers, earth tanks, escape rangers etc is quite another.

Make it a casual arena where a small reward is given for winning a (1) game. It's NOT as if this would give every Joe Toucher a high rank title. High title = massive 24/7 grind OR faster skillful play (in TA). Nothing wrong with that.

You pretty much hit every point I made in an above post on the head here.

RA is a casual arena for newbies, testing build and the casual pvper.

There should be small reward for playing. (entry level pvp)

1 point per game, title = high grind (time played) does not show/count for anything so why have it.

TA is more skillful play yet receives the same reward, I ask you why? It's only marginally faster points for probably 5% who play in there, the rest struggle to earn points in there since it requires skill. (therefore they leave/sync RA and earn points almost as quick as those 5% who get them regularly in TA)

.

Xanthar · Aug 16, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

The others just punish you for playing RA, thus making the arena completely pointless.

I know you were not here at that point, but let me tell you something that happened a long time ago: In the misty dark ages of GW there were no rewards for RA. No title. No faction, no ranks, not even experience points. Priests of Balthazar were unheard of - All your unlocks came from PvE.

In these primitive times, people still played RA. In my opinion, they played because they enjoyed the game. In your opinion, they were probably just crazy.

Titles are an illusion - A trick to extend the lifetime of a game. They are a in-game manisfestation of epeen. No one who plays the game for the fun of playing the game need any titles - Indeed they would keep playing without any rewards, as the gameplay is a reward in itself. The players who crave titles are interested in something other than the game itself - I'll venture to say that they want affirmation. Social standing in comparison to others.

Now, there is a practical use for titles if they are seen as badges of merit within the community. For any such use to be practical, the titles must reflect (at least partially) player skill. This is not in fact true for either the gladiator title, nor rank at the moment, since even a bad player can attain the maximum rank given infinite an time investment - If you can get one single point, you can linearly project how much time it will take you to max out the title.

If I were to make any change to the PvP titles (which, obviously, I am not) I would devise a system that demanded an increase in skill for each level of the title. This way the title would have a meaning beyond the status enhancement and acknowledgment of time spent it currently serves as. (See my post above for my actual suggestion)

urania · Aug 16, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

The current system does not work well with RA, so the designers are looking at alternatives that balance the needs of both the RA and TA communities.

so you are trying to create one that works better for RA but that will essentially, if implemented, spoil TA that is fine as it is atm?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

The polls on multiple forums show that, along with many of the posts I have read. It seems to me many people are essentially saying "If you disregard all the people who are not agreeing with me, you will see that everyone is agreeing with me!" and I can only ask that you please keep in mind that everyone is entitled to their opinion and their point of view. We can tell the difference between the casual players and the hard-core players and we know who has more invested in this style of game-play. But the designers also see the other side of the spectrum and they are looking into different methods that can work for everyone. We wouldn't ask for your opinion only to disregard it, but please keep in mind that sometimes compromises are essential whenever there is more than one person involved--and there are a lot more than two people in Guild Wars.

well, if those polls are similar to the results from the german forum i've posted a link to in this thread than u are merely hearing the voices of the pve community ie. thousands of Joe Wammo's that are quite enthusiastic to be able to easily obtain something that was previously probably out of their reach. And it makes me really disappointed that u apparently hold the opinions of those players over the opinions of players actually familiar with the real problem and also giving plenty of solutions how to fix the problem without spoiling either of the arenas.

And to be honest, no, you cant tell the difference from casual and hard-core players when u just look at the poll results.
Also, not one of the methods u proposed can work for everyone because u refuse to admit that RA are TA are separate arenas - I am still wondering why are u so stubborn there though...would it take so much more effort/time/money if u would treat them as split arenas? Or do anet just refuse admitting they were wrong to start with when they interlinked RA with TA with the glad title?

Master Ketsu · Aug 16, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Option #1 seems best by a mile.

The others just punish you for playing RA, thus making the arena completely pointless. Sequential wins required for the little reward that's there (namely the title) is one thing, but forcing players to sit through wammos, healing breezers, earth tanks, escape rangers etc is quite another.

Make it a casual arena where a small reward is given for winning a (1) game. It's NOT as if this would give every Joe Toucher a high rank title. High title = massive 24/7 grind OR faster skillful play (in TA). Nothing wrong with that.

People posting here just seem to want their silly gladiator title to become MORE valuable so they want to see RA without benefit, so that the title becomes more exclusive. Glad title = "Bored Was I" title anyway, something to get when you have no or few friends around. Open it up already... fresh air would do these arenas good.

Bots could enter as afkers, spam maybe one skill, and get glads faster then anyone else.

Taking away the requirement to win consecutively, and you take away the skill required to get it. I find it hard to believe anyone with glad 1 or higher cannot see this.

Proposition 1 is complete and utter trash that would spell doom for the title. Please stop failing to see why.

yesitsrob · Aug 16, 2007, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Proposition 1 would definitely introduce leeching to RA.

AB, FA, and Dragon Arenas are by far enough evidence to suggest this.

glountz · Aug 16, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

IMHO
* Remove glad points from RA and stick it to TA. With the same requirements.
* Create a new title based on RA and PROPOSAL 1 IS THE BEST SOLUTION FOR THIS TITLE IMO.
Reasons :
_ With the need of 5 consec wins, leavers will still leave. It's really uneasy to win with a non healed team, as most leavers don't bring any form of self healing as they count on their monk, before the 5 wins mark. So they will still leave.
_ Some people against proposal 1 here seem to forget that in HA, the proposal 1 is already implemented: 1 win 1 point. This is trash? Maybe. HA was the first PvP area to be title farmed. Devs obviously didn't learn from this.
_ Some people say that RA will become a grindfest. Maybe, but the incentive to synch/leave will be completely be gone if you gain 1 point per win. And after all, will you show your perfect max RA title to enter top guilds, hmm? Do you think that will work? No, people will muck you. Having a RA title is like having a big "I am a PvP newbie and I like it" title.
_ You don't have to separate RA and TA. The thing is just that after 10 wins in RA you go in TA and start winning glads (and no more the RA title) after 10 consecutive wins. How many RA teams will make it to 20 wins from RA to TA? No one. So people won't use RA as an easy way for the glad title.
_ The best thing for the casual player I am, IMO, would be to remove every title from the game. But no-lifes are your main playerbase now, and they bought the game the same price than me. So, if you have to keep titles, then make a new RA title with proposal 1, and stick Glads points for TA, with more points the longer your winning streak is (PROPOSAL 3 for TA, but 10 wins based).

glountz · Aug 16, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Proposition 1 would definitely introduce leeching to RA.

AB, FA, and Dragon Arenas are by far enough evidence to suggest this.

I think you're wrong.
AB and FA are leeched because they gain faction no matter the end of the match. Wether they win or not.
You could leech for balth faction. But leeching a title that is based upon winning won't give you anything. 3v4 TA/RA matches are rarely won. Thus leeching RA for such a title will be, at best pointless.

elk · Aug 16, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

I can understand the bot/leech concern but there's still the requirement of winning the match.

In a 4 man, missing one player is a large enough issue to hurt that teams chances of winning (this is assuming that the 3 players still continue on to try and win - i'd imagine most would leave). This is also based on having just 1 bot/leech. If it were to become "popular" than the likelyhood of having teams with 2 or more bots/leechers are going to increase therefore reducing the odds of winning even further.

It may bring bots/leechers but they won't reap the benefits like you might think (unless the bots are actively particapating in the match to a degree where it would aid in a win)

elk

Hundbert · Aug 16, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20

I'm currently rank 5 terrifying gladiator with 320 points so i thought i would share my thoughts about this.

Here are the problems i have encountered in ra/ta:

1. Leavers
2. Griefers
3. Synch joiners

I think with the anti leaver system in place leavers will not be a problem so i guess we don't have to worry about that anymore. Great!

Griefers.. Well... Will there be a timelimit for battles in ra/ta or did i just get that out of thin air? I could swear i read about that somewhere in this thread.

Synchers are hard to stop. Fighting a guild team first game in ra isn't fun. Don't know if there is any solution to this yet?

Anyway..
I don't like proposal #1 as i think it will change gladiator points too much.

1. I think it will introduce too many leechers. We have this problem already in alliance battles. Ofcourse i could be wrong altogether i just have the feeling the door will be open for leeching.

2. Right now gladiator points is about playing well for 10 games if you only need to play well for 1 game gladiator points is more about how much you play (in time) not how skilled you are (Winning 10 games)

Proposals #2 and #3 sound great to me. Expecially #3 when you get more points the better you play. Awesome.

yesitsrob · Aug 16, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I think you're wrong.
AB and FA are leeched because they gain faction no matter the end of the match. Wether they win or not.
You could leech for balth faction. But leeching a title that is based upon winning won't give you anything. 3v4 TA/RA matches are rarely won. Thus leeching RA for such a title will be, at best pointless.

Who said anything about doing it for Balthazaar Faction? They'd do it for Glad Points, whether you like to believe it or not certain people have botted a significant amount of the Skillz Title in Dragon Arenas and they quite surely could do the same in RA. And winning 3v4 is very possible... Hell 2v4 is possible, the title would be extremely leechable.

Edit: I will add that you are not very likely to win matches if it's 3v4, but the odds are still high enough to make people consider doing it.

finalfan321 · Aug 16, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Today i got 456 gladpoints so glad6 is close for me which i worked hard for. So when i see that (6) under my name i don't want to have the feeling it was all for noth. Please do not change the system of gaining a gp (10=1 in ta and ra). Yes it is easier as a ranked (fame) person to get a good party in ta and get far in ra. But the people complaining about the title are usually those that do not get many points and they try to blame someone. However when you ask these people for the skillbar they use in ra/ta you can tell by the skills chosen (mending, flesh golem, stoneflesh aura etc) they wouldn't get many points anyway. So in a way it's their own fault. I don't get why there is such a big discussion about the tiltle,them you get the answer: "Want to do 1 vs 1?" Then i ask myself who is to blame.

About te leavers in ra. I've done it myself... I needed 2 points for my next title and just lost 2 times at 9, i got frustrated and made the last 2 by being a leaver. But i want to get rid of the leavers too. It must be taken care of but not by changing the system. Try to punish a leaver anytime he quits b4 facing the oponents.