Curse

Legolas El · Aug 14, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

I honestly don't get the thought process involved here, NOTHING is wrong with the current Glad point system... The leavers are the problem ><

Just penalize the people who leave by giving them times outs or taking Glad points and you will fix the problem, the people who leave cause the team doesn't comprise what they want will be forced to stay and the lame syncers will go to Ta.

Just make it so that there is NO penalty if you leave after the match and before the next one starts. Then the people searching for the 'perfect' team can still try ...

Part of the fun and sense of accomplishment of Ra or Ta is having to win 10 to get a point, any bunch of goofballs ( no offense, lol ) can win one match ~ It takes a team working together in some form to win 10 =)

Doesn't this make more sense ?

Master Ketsu · Aug 14, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

the title trakc is now the ONLY reason to be there as a PvP Noob is to gain skill, this is not enough of an incentive for me or most people. If the change makes it more likely that more people will learn to PvP then I would think you PvP only players would be happy because it would generate a larger PvP crowd.

At the cost of making it easier- ala less fun ? Part of the fun in PvP is the challenge it provides. People who think its too hard should PvE. I dont care if that means less people PvP. Quality >>> Quantity.

Also, that was a Pm I sent you. Generally you dont post your response in the forums, but reply directly. You just broke a cardinal rule of netiquette...

urania · Aug 14, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

I did not request nor do I need your permission to post....and one reason I have not PvP'd is because there is not a area in which to learn PvP (positioning, best skills and combo's to use, who to attack, how not to overextend, etc) except RA and as the title trakc is now the ONLY reason to be there as a PvP Noob is to gain skill, this is not enough of an incentive for me or most people. If the change makes it more likely that more people will learn to PvP then I would think you PvP only players would be happy because it would generate a larger PvP crowd. There must be a place for people new to PvP to go and learn and it must have some other reward than just gaining expertise. This change will help with that. I see all the time posts on here that say "look at PvP there is nobody there anymore" QQ well it is because noobs are too far behind the curve and not enough reason to catch up, this will provide that reason IMO

Actually, the fact that u are hardly acquainted with pvp, especially ta, which gets hit in this wanna-be update most, already speaks for itself - no, ur vote should not and does not carry the same weight as the votes by regular ta players (and i dont acknowledge "regular ra players" anyway because they consist out of leavers, synchroers and lamers most of the time). Same as when there was a poll on ha getting back to 8vs8, players who dont play there shouldnt vote because they are not familiar with what is going on about at all.

I started taing about 14 months ago, even before glad titles came out...did i grind points in ra? no, cause i hated the randomness and also, one needs to start playing in ORGANIZED, NOT RANDOM teams in order to learn sth and fight against organized teams in order to gain experience. Of course one wont succeed in the very fooking first week, or few weeks but where there's a will there's a way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hayashi

It takes skills AND willpower to become a good player. We're not here to spoon feed pvp-wannabes.

QFT, one needs to prove they want to learn how to become a good player and that they arent merely trying to grind some title.

Its not elitism, its the very freaking basic of pvping - no one wants a nub, if u are one then get better, dont abuse lame builds, ask a lot of questions on how to improve, what forums to visit for that etc.

Oh, all who dare(d) choosing 1st option need to be shot. Twice. Go to pve and grind the freaking lightbringer title. :x No one who is sane wants "lightbringer gladiators" -_-. This should not be a farming spot, for crying out loud.

Longasc · Aug 14, 2007, 10:51 PM // 22:51

I changed my mind from system 1 to system 2. My reasons are explained below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legolas El

I honestly don't get the thought process involved here, NOTHING is wrong with the current Glad point system... The leavers are the problem ><

This is because the current system rewards leaving, and this is why it is a bad system. The Gladiator title promoted leaving in RA like nothing else ever before.

When thinking about a possible new system we must take in account how leavers will react on it and also think about the penalties for leaving.

So far none of the suggested systems include a penalty.

IMO: 3 glad point penalty for leaving right away. Exclude the period between matches. But still get a penalty if you did less than 5 matches and leave.

System 1 is perfect to stop leavers, but it is also perfect for leechers that just autojoin and do nothing. While I favored system 1 initially, it does not only devalue the title a lot, it also favors leechers.

So System 2, the 5 win streaks, wins. I prefer it over the very similar system 3. But only with a severe leaver penalty to make people stop leaving. It is also less vulnerable to leechers as it would not really pay off to hope for 5 wins in a row if you just leech and do nothing.

Proposal for TA: Double Gladiator points earned there.

Master Ketsu · Aug 15, 2007, 03:46 AM // 03:46

penalty for leaving doesnt need to be too harsh, just harsh enough so it makes it not worth their time to do so. Something as simple as a 10 minute ban for leaving before 2:00 minutes would suffice.

Changing the title in an attempt to mitigate leavers wont solve the issue. It may decrease the problem, but ultimatly unless leavers are targeted directly they will always exist.

Div · Aug 15, 2007, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Solution 3.

Except for 10 wins you still only get 1 point. At 15 you get 2, 20 you get 3, etc. etc. That makes it so you can get it a lot faster doing TA than RA, and makes it so bad RA'ers can't complain as much...

Captain Gerome · Aug 15, 2007, 04:58 AM // 04:58

I think i might sort of change my position. I am still for option 2 but I don’t like raising the cap per Glad title. Keep them the way they are. Just change the rate of acquisition rate to option 2. Don’t raise any caps or do multipliers of current points.

DutchSmurf · Aug 15, 2007, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

Actually, the fact that u are hardly acquainted with pvp, especially ta, which gets hit in this wanna-be update most, already speaks for itself - no, ur vote should not and does not carry the same weight as the votes by regular ta players (and i dont acknowledge "regular ra players" anyway because they consist out of leavers, synchroers and lamers most of the time). Same as when there was a poll on ha getting back to 8vs8, players who dont play there shouldnt vote because they are not familiar with what is going on about at all.

Right, the RA players are all leavers, synchroers and lamers. And all TA-players are farming the gladiator title. Just for your information, both RA and TA are effected just as much by the suggested changes. So that means if someone plays RA on a regular base, he has just as much right to speak as anyone else. Just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean he isn't allowed to voice his opinion.
I can't really see the problem of option 1 anyway. It would make it similar to all other titles currently in PvP. Wouldn't change the value of the title either. It is farmed now, it will be farmed then. I never saw the point of needing to win 10 times in a row. Since you always seem to lose in the 9th or 10th match. With the first suggestion it shows exactly what other titles show. How often you won in a certain type. You can add something like that after 10 wins you get double points, but I really don't see a problem with option 1 compared to other titles.

urania · Aug 15, 2007, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

both RA and TA are effected just as much by the suggested changes. So that means if someone plays RA on a regular base, he has just as much right to speak as anyone else. Just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean he isn't allowed to voice his opinion.

for your information, anet is trying to fix ra at the expense of TA, basicly there's nothing wrong with how ta is atm (it only lacks a few buffs) and yet they wanna bring it down to grind level because they do not wanna separate the both arenas or refuse to admit they're completely different types of arenas.

ra'ing on regular basis is wrong - abusing randomness to gain points is wrong. if u cant guess from all the posts so far why its wrong then i really cant help u.

they can vote on how ra is gonna be, but NOT on how ta is gonna be - unfortunately, they're closely connected (for now..), so we have a problem there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

I can't really see the problem of option 1 anyway. It would make it similar to all other titles currently in PvP. Wouldn't change the value of the title either. It is farmed now, it will be farmed then. I never saw the point of needing to win 10 times in a row. Since you always seem to lose in the 9th or 10th match. With the first suggestion it shows exactly what other titles show. How often you won in a certain type. You can add something like that after 10 wins you get double points, but I really don't see a problem with option 1 compared to other titles.

sorry, but i dont wanna see it turn 100 % farmable. Yes it would change a lot cause Joe Wammo can grind or leech in ra then forever gaining sth that was supposed to be gained in a completely different way and a completely different place.

I gained r7 lightbringer by simply farming titans in HM for a while, does that make me a good pve'er? or a good farmer? no. there's no definition of being good when it comes to those 2 terms anyway however...it was just mere mindless farming.

Divineshadows · Aug 15, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Gerome

I think i might sort of change my position. I am still for option 2 but I don’t like raising the cap per Glad title. Keep them the way they are. Just change the rate of acquisition rate to option 2. Don’t raise any caps or do multipliers of current points.

That's just crazytalk. A change to the system with regard to how points are obtained needs a complementary change to the current scales. Otherwise, it would punish players that obtained many points prior to the change but have no intent to obtain many more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

This is the exact mentality that keeps PvP players in the minority.....snobbish elitist attitudes FTL

The above post should be routed to Lyssa's Fiction for its comedic value.

Cherng Butter · Aug 15, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

I normally reply in PM's but since you played the "my opinion is more important than yours because I play PvP more than you" card I felt it was appropriate to reply to all....just shows the attitude that I mentioned earlier.

You know, posting someone's private message to try and defame them is pretty immature. And yes, players who have been around PvP for longer should have a more influential say on how PvP titles are reworked.

Shadow Kurd · Aug 15, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

This is what Ryan Scott (Works at Anet!) has for alternatives:

The goal of these proposals is to ease the requirements of a great team in Random Arenas to acquire Gladiator Points, but not to devalue them to Team Arena players or make them an "over time" reward. Gladiator has become one of the more hardcore titles and we feel that it should take more than playing a lot of games to achieve it. Proposals 2 and 3 are adjustments with this in mind.

Also, we're going to be implementing a "Deserter" style system that punishes leavers in random formats with PvP downtime. This will only be applied to the problem areas, so TA, HA, and GvG players will not have to worry much about this. That being said, since we're disallowing players to leave and join repeatedly to get a team capable of 10 wins in RA, we felt we needed to take the cap down. These changes will go hand-in-hand.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that we're also adding mechanics for punishing leechers and a time limit on RA/TA games to stop runners.

There are three current proposals.

Proposal 1

* Every win gives you 1 point.
* Players get points for streaks. Players get 5 points for each 5 consecutive wins.

Updating Current Title Holders:

* Multiply current player points by 30.
* Multiply each rank by 20

Proposal 1 Table
Title rank Points needed Title name
1 500 Gladiator
2 1000 Fierce Gladiator
3 2000 Mighty Gladiator
4 3360 Deadly Gladiator
5 5600 Terrifying Gladiator
6 9320 Conquering Gladiator
7 15500 Subjugating Gladiator
8 25920 Vanquishing Gladiator
9 43200 King's Gladiator
10 72000 Emperor's Gladiator*
11 120000 Balthazar's Gladiator*
12 200000 Legendary Gladiator*

Proposal 2

* Every 5 wins gives you 1 point
* Every additional 5 consecutive wins gives you 2 points.

Updating Current Title Holders:

* Multiply current player points by 4
* Multiply each rank requirement by 3

Proposal 2 Table
Title rank Points needed Title name
1 75 Gladiator
2 150 Fierce Gladiator
3 300 Mighty Gladiator
4 504 Deadly Gladiator
5 840 Terrifying Gladiator
6 1398 Conquering Gladiator
7 2325 Subjugating Gladiator
8 3888 Vanquishing Gladiator
9 6480 King's Gladiator
10 10800 Emperor's Gladiator
11 18000 Balthazar's Gladiator
12 30000 Legendary Gladiator

Proposal 3

* Every 5 wins gives you 1 point
* Every additional 5 wins gives you a bonus point (plus the original 1 for 5 wins). 10 wins = 2 total points, 15 = 3 total points, etc. This would be capped at 3 or 4 for every 5 win streak to keep it from getting out of control.
* Multiply current points by 5
* Multiply each rank by 4

Proposal 3 Table
Title rank Points needed Title name
1 100 Gladiator
2 200 Fierce Gladiator
3 400 Mighty Gladiator
4 672 Deadly Gladiator
5 1120 Terrifying Gladiator
6 1864 Conquering Gladiator
7 3100 Subjugating Gladiator
8 5184 Vanquishing Gladiator
9 8640 King's Gladiator
10 14400 Emperor's Gladiator*
11 24000 Balthazar's Gladiator*
12 40000 Legendary Gladiator*

For reference, here is the current track we’re working with:
Title rank Points needed Title name
1 25 Gladiator
2 50 Fierce Gladiator
3 100 Mighty Gladiator
4 168 Deadly Gladiator
5 280 Terrifying Gladiator
6 466 Conquering Gladiator
7 775 Subjugating Gladiator
8 1296 Vanquishing Gladiator
9 2160 King's Gladiator
10 3600 Emperor's Gladiator
11 6000 Balthazar's Gladiator
12 10000 Legendary Gladiator

Source:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_talk:Ryan_Scott

jebusxxl · Aug 15, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

/signed i really like proposal 1

Andrew Patrick · Aug 15, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Kurd

Snip

Isn't that the same info that is in the first post?

Your feedback is great, and we understand and appreciate the different points of view you are sharing. As we have said, the designers are looking for a system that works for both RA and TA, so please keep that in mind when posting. Feel free to post alternative suggestions, but simply posting "don't change the title it's fine" isn't going to do much good. According to the designers, a change is coming so it would be more beneficial for everyone to share their point of view to make that change the best it can be for all parties rather than to simply resit the change entirely. The more explanation and reasoning you provide the better, and supporting your opinion is always more effective than trying to disprove others'.

Feel free to visit Ryan's talk page if you want to see some of the thought process behind this, and of course, if you have any questions feel free to post them and I will try to find you the answer.

urania · Aug 15, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

why is a person who apparently doesnt have any experience with pvping responsible for fixing such an issue?

Andrew Patrick · Aug 15, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

why is a person who apparently doesnt have any experience with pvping responsible for fixing such an issue?

Ryan is currently working on Dungeons for GW:EN, along with other projects, but he is an extremely active and skilled PvP player. One of the most skilled I know. I think others here are quite aware of his success in the competitive aspects of GW, but for those who aren't, you can rest assured that he is extremely experienced in PvP and very passionate about the competitive side of the game.

Sab · Aug 15, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Ryan is currently working on Dungeons for GW:EN, along with other projects, but he is an extremely active and skilled PvP player. One of the most skilled I know. I think others here are quite aware of his success in the competitive aspects of GW, but for those who aren't, you can rest assured that he is extremely experienced in PvP and very passionate about the competitive side of the game.

Perhaps he's experienced in other forms of PvP, but this concerns TA a great deal, and it only makes sense for someone who's involved with TA to be in charge of this change.

The problem is, it doesn't sound like he plays TA much. If he did, Proposal 1 would have never gotten off the drawing board, let alone be posted here as a viable suggestion.

BlackSephir · Aug 15, 2007, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Solution 3.

Except for 10 wins you still only get 1 point. At 15 you get 2, 20 you get 3, etc. etc. That makes it so you can get it a lot faster doing TA than RA, and makes it so bad RA'ers can't complain as much...

I'm with ya brother. Furthermore, if there will be 'double glad points weekends' DO NOT include RA- just TA.

Aera · Aug 15, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Isn't that the same info that is in the first post?

Feel free to post alternative suggestions, but simply posting "don't change the title it's fine" isn't going to do much good. According to the designers, a change is coming so it would be more beneficial for everyone to share their point of view to make that change the best it can be for all parties rather than to simply resit the change entirely.

( See what I made bold ) <-- that's just a fact. And saying that there's a change in the title coming, is basically saying we're screwed already. Guess there's not much left for me to say in this topic anymore, because any of the given proposals will make me angry, but it's unevitable as it it seems.

Punishing leavers should be enough imo

KebabVan · Aug 15, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

I am strongly against any of the 3 proposals or anything simliar. The reason is as others have said, RA and TA are different arenas. you can't find a system that works for both. It will be even easier to farm titles in RA than TA and there will be even less people in TA.

The reason there are loads more people in RA than TA is because its easier to farm glad points in RA. Go to ID1 RA and check out the number of glads there.

It should either stay the same or glad pts should be removed from RA altogether or capped at glad 1. People dont care about RA itself, they care about glad points. If you moved them from RA to TA, masses of people would move with it. RA as a place to get faction, to learn the basics and to play whilst waiting for more serious PvP would remain.