Curse

Div · Aug 01, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

i dont even think its necessary to poll this. The solution is obvious and there really arent any convincing arguments otherwise.

take heroes out altogether or limit them to 2.

i voted for 2 because i think its a compromise and i think compromise is the best way forward for issues like this.

GvG certainly needs the option for a couple of heroes in case of last minute emergencies or disconnects. HA being the more casual venue could probably go without heroes but id be fine with seeing how a 2 hero limit would play out before banning them completely.

Theres just no convincing legitimate reason to keep things as they are.

Not one person has posted in such a way that might change my mind to think otherwise. Until someone does, ill stand by my point.

I'd say for GvG's, you can have one hero. For HA, no heroes. If you can run two, people can easily still run the barbs+mm heroes and replace the n/rt with humans and still get all the benefits out of godly hero reflex times.

Skye Marin · Aug 01, 2007, 04:41 PM // 16:41

I think they should stay at 4 in GvG and HA, which some tweaks to the mechanics that make them especially efficient in some cases. For example:

-All skills that require a spirit in earshot now require a spirit under your direct control in earshot. (This will go far in weakening skills like Spirit Light, Spirit Transfer, and Mend Body and Soul in Necro/Rit Hero bars because they don't take positioning into account)
-All summoned creatures now only give Soul Reaping to the players that they are bound to. If they are unbound, then they give no soul reaping. (This will prevent the seemingly endless energy pool the Necro/Rits have when a handful of Bone Minions have been summoned)

Basically, there are a handful of skills and builds that heroes work well with. Spreading hexes, microing enchantments, spamming spirits, and healing with a strong SR energy supply are a few examples. Simply removing them is not a practical way to go. In the next month, you'll all see some serious changes to the way hexes work, making them more active by shortening duration, recharge, and cost all at once. Using something like Tainted Flesh isn't hard for a human player to do. The other two are only matters revolving around SR.

Baby steps, guys.

If you think a Hero build is particularly unfair, compared to what a human player can do, post that exact build, and then post solutions to it. Simply removing them from play is inelegant and harmful. I know I don't have an hour just to form up an 8-man group. The less I play, the less practice I get against whatever meta is up, and the more likely I am to lose.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Aug 01, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Um, or instead of nerfing whole professions you could just remove heroes. Oh, and do you read update notes? Soul reaping nerf much?

Skye Marin · Aug 01, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Who's nerfing whole professions?

Instead of removing heroes, we just just deal with the specific mechanics that are problematic.

A half-decent human player using an N/Rt is easily more potent than a Hero, defensively. They both have huge energy reserves once the bodies start falling, or even just using Signet of Lost Souls.

By the Death Necro raising his two bone minions, that still gives all four Heroes 2 more triggers of SR. The nerfs, honestly, really didn't do much.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Aug 01, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

You're pretty much nerfing rits horribly with that spirit idea was what I was saying... I mean I hate rit spike passionately and all that, but that seems like a bit too hardcore nerf as it blanket affects all skills involving spirit conditionals...

ksalanpang · Aug 01, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

to be honest, all of you guys are talking about the degen heroway build that people are running. They really beat people by the build not because of the heroes they bring along. Imagine if that build is played by knowledgeable players XD

Although I do not like heroes in the PvP side of GW, i think whoever that's complaining about heroes because of that build should just re-think why cannot you beat those heroes. Think as a team not just yourself how you approach when you face them. You don't need ritspikes to beat them...ffs

Finally, it's not up to us whether to remove heroes from all PvP. If anet don't listen, nothing can be done.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Aug 01, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Just because we are complaining about it doesn't mean we can't beat it. It's just a tedious build to face. Also, for reasons already explained, heroes are much more proficient at running taint or hex necros, and have instant infuse reaction times with stuff like weapon of remedy.

deluxe · Aug 01, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

I voted for "limit to 2", because 4 heroes can make a bad team win. With only 2 heroes you cannot depend on your heroes to do all the work.

I myself would rather just remove all heroes from pvp, but im thinking about the casual players now.

sabuu01 · Aug 01, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

I voted to leave the heros in.

Heroes present an option to help those who want to group. An option, not the definitive "only" choice. However alot of the lower or unranked people have begun to believe it is thier only choice. They come to halls determined to move up to the next level of pvp in guild wars. Then they sit around in int 1 or am 1 for six hours, get invited to seven random groups, fail on either zaishen or underworld, and then restart the whole cycle.

When the recent heroway became popular, they didnt magically start getting groups that worked. Most rank 3 and below heroways still get owned on underworld, if not burial grounds. The difference now is that now, they are making some fame. While they are at it, if they are lucky, some of them are learning some team work. Even though they arent working with 8 humans, just 4, and 4 ai, they are still learning. And thats the point isnt it?They are improving themselves. Even if they aren't gaining enormous leaps in knowledge on pvp, at lest now they are learning something, other then how to pass the time while not getting a group in HA.

I think a major misconception is that the majority of people that are running heroway at the moment, are doing so because they are noobs, or they are bad players, ect. Seems people are also thinking that you can just let the heroes run around on gaurd, and theyll do everything they are supposed to, when they are supposed to. None of that is true. I see daily alot of rank 7 to 10's running the heroway too. And I am seeing some rank 3 heroway groups roll those higher ranks too, if they are running heroway, or not.

I think thats the major problem with most peoples mindset when it comes to liking or disliking heroes in ha atm. When a rank 10 gets roll by a lowbie heroway, they get mad. They even talk smack in all chat to them over it sayign things like. Heroway newb. leave ha. you suck. learn to pvp. loser. ect ect. When in all reality, hey, you jsut lost. Heroway or not, you got beat. Obviously if heroway is such newbish, and sucks, you should have owned it right ? but the "heroes superior insight to spell times and enchants" made the difference. Bull.

My oppinion is that maybe if you hadn't rit spiked, blood spiked, iway, zergway, para spiked, vimway, r-spilked your way to r10, you might have learned a little more about real pvp yourself, and wouldnt have gotten rolled. Want to beat the heroway, kill eoe, kill toxicity, kill the n/e, and if they hid the n/e under a different secondary find thier tainted spammer and take him out first. There's only one monk in the group. off tank him and take the tainted out. Tainted gone, move to the monk. take out the healer necros, pressure them till there res sigs are up and they have to rely on flesh to rez. then they start doign your job for you. Half health kill the rezzers, when ya got the thumpers left all alone, kill them too. There are many ways to beat thsi group. Shoot, i run three different heroways myself that anhilate the rao tainted and not a single one of them use a tainted.

People seem to believe that current meta game is the best there is, and thats what the meta means. Nope, its jsut the vcurrent most used working build. Tainted is mean as hell, and irritating you, well then find ways to beat it, and start running those builds. 8 man or 4man 4 heroes. I dont care either way. Beat the heroway, and once you get obs moded in halls, your build might become the next meta. Then everyoen will be taking smack about the next fotm, and saying how it needs to be erradicated because it owns too much.

Heros dont need to be removed here. They aren't the problem. The problem is people not wanting to take the time to actually learn pvp enough to be creative themselves, and instead resorting to running the builds that they know work cause everyone else runs them. but thsoe builds had to be made by some one didn't they. Leanr to put together builds, and anticipate what you might run across in ha, and stop blaming lack of talent, or tactics on something that can easily be anihilated with jsut about any aoe build.

sorry for rambling on. Probally doesnt even make sense. Ill re read it later and hopefully at least ill remember what i was trying to get to, point wise.

Well, good game all, and see you in HA

Kyp Jade · Aug 01, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabuu01

Heros dont need to be removed here. They aren't the problem. The problem is people not wanting to take the time to actually learn pvp enough to be creative themselves, and instead resorting to running the builds that they know work cause everyone else runs them. but thsoe builds had to be made by some one didn't they. Leanr to put together builds, and anticipate what you might run across in ha, and stop blaming lack of talent, or tactics on something that can easily be anihilated with jsut about any aoe build.

Heroes need to be removed, if for nothing else that this is a plyer vs player environment. Lag issues and heroes playing the bars perfectly aside. This isnt final fantasy where I go kill the same thigns for an hour all day to farm gold. I want to play against more ppl than just olias.

And you dont need AoE to beat the build. Its just the easiest way to go because of all the melee hate the build takes.

Everyone realizes this build is the reason you dont see zergway? someone made THIS build because zergway was o so popular, and then afterwards, realized o wait, heros do well at these bars as well. And ever since it has been popular, because it not only owned zergwar, it beat rt spike, and balanced, and hey it beat ppl with tigers and phoenixes too.

Ashius · Aug 02, 2007, 07:46 AM // 07:46

I come to Heroes' Ascent to do PvP, not PvAI. And its not that we can't beat these teams, they are usually simple to beat. Heroes have forced people to become lazy and not learn to run certain builds themselves. And the sad thing about players these days is that heroes know how to spread hexes better than 90% of the HA community.

God Apprentice · Aug 02, 2007, 08:38 AM // 08:38

I voted for complete removal.

Like my guildie says:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashius

Heroes have forced people to become lazy and not learn to run certain builds themselves

and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashius

heroes know how to spread hexes better than 90% of the HA community.

Which of course they can do better than any human, since Heroes know exactly when to reapply.

Mental Leteci · Aug 02, 2007, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabuu01

I voted to leave the heros in.

Heroes present an option to help those who want to group. An option, not the definitive "only" choice. However alot of the lower or unranked people have begun to believe it is thier only choice. They come to halls determined to move up to the next level of pvp in guild wars. Then they sit around in int 1 or am 1 for six hours, get invited to seven random groups, fail on either zaishen or underworld, and then restart the whole cycle.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

If you think heroes should be here to help low rank people make a group then they shouldn't buy this game in the 1st place. It's an MMO game. Playing with heroes is like playing it in single player mode. It's like passing the game with henchies, where's the fun in it. You could just play Morrowind or any other game which has far better story/gameplay/graphics, but it's not made for ONLINE gaming.

Face the fact that people who are rank 11/12 now won't take people who are rank now rank 3 and become rank 11 in 2 months. It has nothing to do with rank or rank elitism and you should all learn it already. When a person has rank 11/12 he also has a HUGE friends list of players he played with (no matter what rank they are) and he'll always ask them before taking a pug. Hell, I don't even play if there is not enough people on my flist who are free to play.

Lykan · Aug 02, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Keep pvp for the humans please!
Gtfo heroes

skarkees · Aug 03, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

@sabuu (and the other voters for keep hero's in HA)

WHY WHY WHY. That was my first thought of your tread.
I mean you say: People dont wanna learn or create counter builds on heroway. Wel thats so called a community lol. I think there is only a 10th 10/100 from the HA (PVP) community that can make builds. Other people just wanna play and wanna get fame.

IMO PVP is 8 humans vs 8 humans. If it is 8 (good) high ranked humans vs 8 r1-3 humans i should say: learn from the high ranked. Watch them in observe and try to see the tactics. I mean whats so difficult about putting some degen hexes on a target and then just wait till people cant stand the pressure anymore. Yeah its lame imo.

Ok when you do heroway you learn a bit teamwork. But not as much as with 8 peepz. Why not playing balanced. Calls, tactics and position take a part in there. And those 3 things are the basics in PVP.

Then you have the problem of the High ranked persons who dont wanna play with r3's. well I totaly understand them. They dont wanna play with a r3 who got his rank by doin heroway of zergway. And the r3 heroways dont know what tactic is or where to position yourself.

Look GW is a community. The biggest part is just playing builds wich is the meta. The meta is mostly the build wich most people can play easy. Easy builds are mostly lame (no skilled) builds. So they learn nothing.

And believe me. My guild (a few r3 and a very few r9 but mostly unranked) are having so much more fun with balanced builds then heroway.

Btw: I think the same on rit spike or bloodspike.

And then this:
Yesterday we did GVG. we were against a r600 guild who runned the heroway (olias etc). we play on wariors isle. The whole team of them ganked directly to our G-lord. We runned back (we had no choice because when ganking from side B on warriors isle the enemy can gank tru the base and you dont have to kill or avoid a single ranger to get to the knights). So the enemy was by our G-lord. Ok we start the fight. We spiked and killed some. But as you know. Heroway works the best in a small place so much pressure. Making a gank was nop option because they heroway will kill us when we were out numbered. So we cant stand the pressure and on monk went down. Then the bodyguard. Then more and more pressure and we died. Against what? Yeah STUPID heroway.

You can say like: just kill tainted necro and blablabla. But its not always that easy. You cant defeat pressure (ok if you kill lol) but you can prevent dmg but you cant prevent presure by using prot skills or something.

SO I SAY NO HERO'S

BTW: dont blame me for my english ok :P

Skye Marin · Aug 03, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

You're all blaming one build.

Izzy recently said all long-lasting hexes are going to be nerfed to be more active and less passive:

Quote:

My opinion on hexes is they are unbalanced, for a number of reasons, First being they are not fun to play against or to play, the powerful nature of Hexes makes it so a lot of teams play Hexes, and the options to dealing with hexes are so extreme. Hexes are meant and designed to stick, thats why removal is weaker, the problem comes with the combo of pressure, and shutdown that Hexes offer, basically their effect is too strong for their cost. I think this is due to a few factions, Glyph of Lesser energy, and Auspicious Incantation, both these skills give Hexes the energy power they needed to function, Reapers mark also adds to the mix. The second thing that I don't like about hexes is they encourage bad play, when your playing a hex team and you have your hex web out your positioning doesn't matter anymore, warriors can over extend, rangers can push up for monks, beacuse the physical damage of the enemy team can't punish you for positioning, the battle lines crumble. Now all this has been said 100 times and isn't really new, so the problem comes is finding the solution. 1.) Balancing removal vs Hexes is tricky, it's easy to make hex removal too good and poof Hexes go away, but I think we are far off from that so this should be less of a concern. 2.) Reduce the effect of Hexes, My main plain is to make hexes more active then passive, I've been reducing duration and trying to force more often use of these skills. While this is over generalizing basically if you halfed all costs and effects, the skill becomes more active. I'm still working on the exact details to fixing this problem, but I still feel it's the biggest problem with the current balance. ~Izzy @-'---- 18:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Are Rit Healers the Problem? Couldn't a player N/Rt heal more efficiently, and with a better sense of priority?

Is SR the problem? If so, ask them to give it a real nerf, like no energy from creatures not under your direct control.

Be honest. If this one build didn't exist, would you be so apprehensive about Heroway?

FoxBat · Aug 03, 2007, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Heroes are still amazing tainters, but the tap to curses could be enough to knock the build out.

Riotgear · Aug 03, 2007, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

You're all blaming one build.

.... and SF heroway.
.... and Discord heroway.

This is the third time they've showed up, and they'll show up again with another idiotic gimmick build if they're not barred. Heroes excel at micromanagement, even if all they do with that micromanagement is spam skills on recharge. But when your whole bar is crap that gets 99% of its benefit by being spammed on recharge (Tainted, Rotting, Rising Bile, Vile Miasma, Mark of Pain, Barbs...), they do pretty damn well with it.

masteroflife · Aug 03, 2007, 05:07 AM // 05:07

agree with above, not only that, they also know who has what hex on them, so they know when to re apply it. Plus that, i've never seen faintheartedness stacked with ins. parasite. so that proves that they are smart about their hexes too.

--Oblivion

red orc · Aug 03, 2007, 11:29 AM // 11:29

When we want PVE we got 3 continents for that.
When we want to play PVP we do realy do want to play PVP and not PVE. If you dont get it yet "Heros are PVE and not PVP".
Get them out of HA and GVG and keep them out of TA.
There is a very small place we can play tactical PVP and that is GVG and HA and Anet made it PVE. Please fix it.