Curse

moriz · Sep 17, 2007, 02:53 PM // 14:53

trying to balance the all the skills is futile. this might be possible in the prophecies or factions days, but now with 10 professions and 1000+ skills, this is now impossible. even if this is possible, the GW dev team have shown to be incapable of doing so. whether because they are inept, lazy, or just too bogged down with beaucracy we will never know, and it doesn't matter. true skill balance is impossible under our current system.

as such, i propose an alternative: instead of allowing everyone to choose whatever skills they want in gvg, limit the skill selection down to a global sealed deck. this applies only to gvg. instead of attempting to mindlessly (and hopelessly) balance all the skills, this sealed deck can ensure anything broke/overpowered will never see play in the gvg arena. to prevent stagnation, this deck can be "reshuffled" every 2 weeks or so with new skills added in, and the same number of skills taken out.

this system has many advantages. first and foremost it's easy to maintain. instead of trying to balance the numbers on a broken skill, the devs can just remove it entirely from gvg play while they fix it. we'll get immediate positive changes, and we no longer run the risk of completely destroying a skill for the other gametypes.

while subscribing to a much smaller selection of skills can be a bit limiting, but it shouldn't matter. all the gvg builds combined encompasses maybe 400 skills. from those 400 skills, we can easily weed out all the problems and give us something fun to play.

here's a deck that i've made up:
http://gwshack.us/719ad
there are exactly 280 skills, some professions having more than others. in this deck, i'm trying to promote a metagame that is similar to the prophecies and pre-GWFC. lots of tactical decisions fueled by lightning fast (and deadly) gameplay. passive defense have been reduced down greatly, while offense haven been left mostly unchanged. to help balance out the lower defense, assassin, dervish, and paragons have been hit pretty hard. i've also stripped most of the "passive, lay-it-on-and-forget" hexes out of the deck, which greatly limits the necromancer.

the deck is not perfect, but it's just a sample and suggestion.

to conclude, this system is easy to maintain, and we can have immediate solutions to anything broken that might pop up. lastly, i would like to finish by saying that creativity in GW does not mean what you run, but how you run it. mediocre players fiddle with their builds in an attempt to gain an advantage, while truly great players can take a common build and make it do something truly unexpected and remarkable.

hyro yamaguchi · Sep 17, 2007, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Uh....GvG has had a few problems concerning balance, but thus far it has always been the most balanced form of PvP, as well is the most challenging, whereas HA has always been driven by gimmick builds.

Why on earth would you put skills into the game, and then not use them in GvG? Sealed deck will just make it boring (although...everyone runs the same build nowadays, so it can hardly get any more boring), what we need is continuous balance, even small ones, even to skills that aren't specifically broken, just to seek out balance, and to push up an ever evolving metagame.

pah01 · Sep 17, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

You have left aura of displacement in the assasin deck. TAKE IT OUT

moriz · Sep 17, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

in the memory of bloodlight eyes flying around the map, keeping 3 base defenders busy while his team smoke their outnumbered opponents at the stand, i'd have to keep AoD in the deck. assassins are gimped enough in my deck. taking it out and i might as well remove all the dagger attacks and leave just sig of malice. AoD is about the only skill in the assassin's repertore that directly reflects player skill.

Quote:

Why on earth would you put skills into the game, and then not use them in GvG?

if i had it my way, most of those skills wouldn't even have made it into the game. the new skills (especially NF ones) contribute very little to GW's strategic depth and instead promote passive button-mashing and gimmicks. if we can keep them out of gvg, then all the better.

Quote:

what we need is continuous balance, even small ones, even to skills that aren't specifically broken, just to seek out balance, and to push up an ever evolving metagame.

and it's been shown over and over again that anet does not have the resources/knowledge/desire/effort to do it. my idea simply gives them the easy way out while maintaining balance. even if they do take the effort to properly balance (assuming its even possible with 1000+ skills), we'll be left with ~300 skills that we'd want to run, and a whole bunch of skills that are basically the same but use more obscure mechanics. we might as well save us the effort and go with the sealed deck.

Zuranthium · Sep 17, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

we might as well save us the effort and go with the sealed deck.

No, you might as well go play a different game.

~Z

DreamWind · Sep 17, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyro yamaguchi

Uh....GvG has had a few problems concerning balance

Only a few? ....

pah01 · Sep 17, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Well aura of displacement is one of those things that makes assassins so gimmicky.

Remove it so that some other assasin builds come to light or the sin not used. gg

Shuuda · Sep 17, 2007, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Well aura of displacement is one of those things that makes assassins so gimmicky.

Remove it so that some other assasin builds come to light or the sin not used. gg

I think you mean Shadow Prison. Ether way, you need to do your homework on assassin history.

moriz · Sep 17, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

AoD is one of the cornerstones of the assassin class. EvIL played their highly skilled telegank strategies on the strength of this skill. all in all, it's probably the most balanced skill in the assassin's reportore. removing it, and you might as well remove the assassin.

anyways, corrected a small oversight in my deck: it had no rez sig *ducks*

*lemming* · Sep 17, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Is there any particular reason why the Beast Mastery, Fire, and Smiting lines were completely excluded?

I assume that it's to reduce the offense in the pool, but it doesn't address the fact that standard 4-physical builds are only going to kill a lot faster without as much defense permitted.

pah01 · Sep 17, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

I think you mean Shadow Prison. Ether way, you need to do your homework on assassin history.

sorry dude but i remembr the builds from the very beginning. I dont need to check my history because I know more than you.

Recall, shadow prism and aura of displacement are gimmicky pieces of shite.

Here is the first build ever used regularly in Gvg for the assasin.

EDIT: LOL AT MORIZ SAYING IT WAS HIGHLY SKILLED

AoD, Golden phoenix strike, Horns of the Ox, Falling Spider, Twisting Fangs, Dark escape, Shadow Refuge, Res sig.

This assasin functioned a pretty much like the recall sin as it allowed you to easily gank npcs and escape.

Golden phoenix strike got nerfed and rightly so because it allowed that broken gimmicky piece of shit build to clear out bases too fast.

Then people ran shock, falling, twisting and then disrupting stab(for troll) dark escape, shadow refuge, AoD, res sig. This build was equally gimmicky but less powerful so fell out of use.

Any other build was probably used by fanbois of the class like Patccmoi(No offence to him because he prob explored some niche uses for the sin like linebacking and not just gimmick im ganking ur dudes) but as many people have pointed out the sin cant play as a warrior so you dont want him.

Then came nightfall and shadow prism.

People started to use recall with shadow prism on the bar and the rest is history (not that recall wasnt used before release of nightfall just not something so common it started to be complained about).

I am going to say this carefully.

If you think any teleport that has the ability to teleport you half the radar away now(was full radar now half) or any offensive teleport isnt gimmick or bad for the game because it removes skill you need to headbutt the wall repeatedly.

Teleports are the only thing that make the sin viable trouble is they are bad for the game because they remove skill from melee and defence.

Off topic, but the only thing that makes the dervish viable is unblindableness or the ability to remove enchants unchecked like grenth could.

Next time you tell somebody to do their homework on some history do your own first.

Joe

moriz · Sep 18, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

and you think the way bloodlight blade, last of master, and legend of danjang played, is unskillful? you sir, are an idiot.

the pre-nightfall assassin was never overpowered. powerful, yes, but by today's standards, just average. keep in mind that the deck i selected do not have any of the e-management "black" line, nor shadow prison, nor viable IAS. the assassin in my deck is limited to a ganker role, and it doesn't even do that all that well. at the stand, its attack speed is simply too low to pose much of a threat. about the only edge it has over other ganking characters (BA rangers, etc) is its ability to gain positioning through careful micromanagement of AoD. which btw, is not something any joe shmoe can do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

Is there any particular reason why the Beast Mastery, Fire, and Smiting lines were completely excluded?

I assume that it's to reduce the offense in the pool, but it doesn't address the fact that standard 4-physical builds are only going to kill a lot faster without as much defense permitted.

beastmastery..... well, there's no hammer bash, or irresistible blow. so thumper builds are out of the question. not sure why you'll want to use them to begin with. fire and smiting are left out because i want to dissuade against the "play for VoD and blow 'em up with AoE" tactics. also, with the weakened defenses, i don't think there's enough holding them in check.

the standard 4-physical build, generally 2 melee (warrior or dervish) along with a paragon and a ranger, or two paragons, is not all that viable within the deck. dervish and paragon are restricted in their skill selection severely, and the paragon lost aggressive refrain (huge chunk of their offense) as well as their heavy defensive buffs. i suppose paragons can try to do the same using the "restoration" line of chants, but those are only good for substituting for LoD and heal party at best, and restricts their offense heavily.

at most, i believe the maximum offense possible from my deck is similar to the KGYU pressure meta, which can be held in check by the skills in the deck.

pah01 · Sep 18, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and you think the way bloodlight blade, last of master, and legend of danjang played, is unskillful? you sir, are an idiot.

Thats got shit all to do with the fact that aura of displacement is gimmicky and when factions was released the bar made with it was broken. It was still a bar that allowed you to clear out a base with a characters watching you and because it was overpowered it was nerfed.

HAHA i have an aura on the other side of the base, so what i'm going to do is attack an npc here and if that ele follows me to blind me well - i will just kill an npc on the other side before he can reach me, that makes me so leet and skilled at the game lolzernoobcakes. That took a lot of thought and planning and skill.

It has also got shit all to do with the fact that all teleports are gimmicky and more or less remove skill from every part of the game be it 8v8 offence, defence or splitting.

Nor were they the only ones to use the assassin bar I mentioned to clear out bases. I done it when factions came out against top 50 guilds when I was a noob in a 350 ranked guild - that just showed you how broken it was.

BTW I am not taking away the fact that those guys were awesome mesmers/eles and warriors when they played em(Danjang did play mesmer too). That fact alone is not eneogh to say that playing a bar that allows you to get a significant advantage over teh enemy at almost all times skillful to play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the pre-nightfall assassin was never overpowered. powerful, yes, but by today's standards, just average. keep in mind that the deck i selected do not have any of the e-management "black" line, nor shadow prison, nor viable IAS. the assassin in my deck is limited to a ganker role, and it doesn't even do that all that well. at the stand, its attack speed is simply too low to pose much of a threat. about the only edge it has over other ganking characters (BA rangers, etc) is its ability to gain positioning through careful micromanagement of AoD. which btw, is not something any joe shmoe can do.

Because almost everything before nighfall is overpowered by nightfall(when released) standards with a shitload of broken stuff released arguing by todays standards wouldnt be very clever.

It still doesnt make aura of displacement any less gimmicky just because it wouldnt be as broken as a recall sin with shadow prison or whatever.

I generally agree with the rest of your post about AoE/Thumpers and Vod strats.

@tricolorsp - You are great, attacking my spelling in an online forum without saying anything substantial to defeat my position is ownage.

Joe

*lemming* · Sep 18, 2007, 02:28 AM // 02:28

So I wrote a nice long post and I hit back. I'm irritated right now.

To recap:

Damage paragons much? QQ ran something along the lines of Cruel/Lightning/Harrier's/GftE/Flame/Remedy/Aggressive/Res late last year as a flagstand physical. Without Aggressive, there's no need for Flame, so you can run practically the same thing with Flail as an IAS if you want.

As for Paragon defensive buffs, SYG is still available.

Pretty sure any metagame with this deck would be more dangerous than KGYU pressure - modern warriors with a paragon are going to outdamage the KGYU 3-man frontline significantly.

moriz · Sep 18, 2007, 02:40 AM // 02:40

well then, if you think ganking with an AoD assassin is so easy, then why isn't there more of them? or maybe it's simply because the average skill level of players have risen enough to deal with them.

by today's standard, i meant today's standard of skill. it now takes a very skilled player to pull off those stunts. in fact, it was already very hard to do at the height of EvIL dominance.

so, is the AoD assassin gimmicky? yes. is it an acceptable gimmick? yep.

Quote:

HAHA i have an aura on the other side of the base, so what i'm going to do is attack an npc here and if that ele follows me to blind me well - i will just kill an npc on the other side before he can reach me, that makes me so leet and skilled at the game lolzernoobcakes.

sorry to burst your bubble, but if an assassin manages to get away with this trick nowadays, the defender sucks monkey nuts, or the team sent back the wrong guy. not to mention, with AoD now limited to radar range (instead of unlimited range), that runner must be extremely slow to be unable to reach a teleporting sin. the other alternative, of course, means that the sin is very skilled and can outsmart the runner.

pah01 · Sep 18, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

well then, if you think ganking with an AoD assassin is so easy, then why isn't there more of them? or maybe it's simply because the average skill level of players have risen enough to deal with them.

by today's standard, i meant today's standard of skill. it now takes a very skilled player to pull off those stunts. in fact, it was already very hard to do at the height of EvIL dominance.

Because if you are going to pull of that kind of split now you use recall with shadow prism or some other variant. It has got absolutely nothing to do with todays level of skill. Aura of displacement is simply overlooked in todays metagame because there are other sin skills more broken.

It has been used twice in the last two month that I have seen though and while they slowly frittered away a base both tiems they took longer than they should have for two reasons.

1. The enemy teams sent back more dudes than splitters.
2. The assasins were playing very very defensivly.

What happened that both those times teams took deaths in the center and one took a full wipe due to sending three guys back to deal with two. They had tried with sending two back but they didnt get anywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

so, is the AoD assassin gimmicky? yes. is it an acceptable gimmick? yep.

No teleport should be allowed in GW but thats my opinion - but it is a fact that teleporting removes a boatload of skill from the game which is bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

sorry to burst your bubble, but if an assassin manages to get away with this trick nowadays, the defender sucks monkey nuts, or the team sent back the wrong guy. not to mention, with AoD now limited to radar range (instead of unlimited range), that runner must be extremely slow to be unable to reach a teleporting sin. the other alternative, of course, means that the sin is very skilled and can outsmart the runner.

If the runner has enchant removal, its justa little harder to do that trick because you have to aura away from that guy, thats it.

What are you talking about sending back the wrong guy? You dont send back the wrong guy - you send back a significant chunk of your offence to deal with that assasin split or you lose NPC's. Its that simple.

You may disagree and think you are bursting my bubble but my experience at the top end of the ladder is different to your opinion.

Joe

Yue · Sep 18, 2007, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Shadow stepping is broken.

Rapture · Sep 18, 2007, 06:46 AM // 06:46

i like it how you champion EvIL and completely ignore WM even though Jang pretty much pioneered the AoD bar and abused the recall style split well before EvIL.

Zabe · Sep 18, 2007, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Perhaps you kids could really go solve that teleporting problem to the backyard with your fists? AoD is minor gimmick if you put it on same line with prenerf recall SP sins. Okay, it's shadowstepping, but assasins are made for it, they are so said "ninja" guys of this game they jump in, kill, and are back in the shadows immediatly. Okay enough of the RPG shit, lets get to the real things.

Sealed deck would suffle the metagame very well in my opinion. It could be done so that you would have one or two different decks for one monthly season, if two decks, then first two weeks one and then for last two weeks another.

It would in case tell the real skill of the players in game, can you be diverse enough to play with limited skills and builds? It wouldn't be the same defensive thing that they call balanced these days, which is more or less a vodway still.

Ofcourse it would create work for ANet dev team and so on. But hey, this is so far (before publishing of FURY) most competitive RPG sofar to my acknowledge.

There could be some problems to find new decks after few months, but the game has 1000+ skills as the original post stated, you can suffle different decks, you could have different kind of "seasons". They had a kinda fun ladder at winter as some of you can remember, what about making one like that again? There could be decks with only a some campaign, only core, only prophecies or only the new expansions.

But still, what will mostly happen is that this will just turn into one pointless bullshit thread about sin shadowsteps and probably noone from ANet will never read this. It has been said in many threads but I can say it again here, ANet lost interest into PvP if not before, but atleast after the release of Factions, NF gave the last shot, this is ain't the competitive RPG they had great size 72 words advertising it.

So the basic thing ain't the skills or anything like that. The basic is that the ones dealing with these problems and things just decided to let it go. The game can't be balanced or won't get any better until ANet makes the decision to revive the game in way or another. Near or distant future won't show green light for GvG (Not PvP, thats whole different thing than GvG) Izzy and others already have their eyes flashing from dollars about the GW2.

Well, flame on etc. I don't care. I don't take any responsibility of any bad English I have used, I'm not native so what ever, tried my best but I'm totally tired to see this game die. Great start, bad end equals for GW and what mostly will happen to GW 2 if the development team stays the same.

~Zabe

Vanquisher · Sep 18, 2007, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Sealed Deck is bad. It promotes highly one dimensional builds based on roll.

It's even worse considering ArenaNet wouldn't give players the same skill pool.