Sep 19, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00
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#1
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Washington State
Profession: W/
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Just starting to GvG...What should we run?
Hi everyone.
My guild is primarily PvE'rs, but we'd like to start getting into some PvP, starting with GvG, but I'm having trouble finding a build to run. I'm reluctant to use one on wiki, because I just doubt it's capability compared to ones from players themselves. So, that's why I decided to come here.
We're almost capable of running every class and most skills. So, any help is apreciated. We have Wizard's Isle hall if that helps.
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Sep 19, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18
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#2
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Slovakia - Bratislava
Guild: LF HA one
Profession: W/
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Hello, first i want, is GL with ur guild...
U should try to run some kind of Hex pressure. Here is it:
2x melee (on split possible) (one Dragon Slash with "For Great Justice!" and "Fear Me!" maybe - have to be tried)
N/E - Corrupt anti melee hexer (Reckless, Price of Failure, Faintheartedness, Parasitic Bond, Sig of Lost Soul, GoLE)
Me - Migraine mesmer with humility (maybe aegis?, conjure nightmare, aucipious incantation, mantra of persistance, hard ress?)
Me - Panic mesmer (aucipious incantation, power leak, mind wrack, hard ress?)
Sod monk (with aegis, GoLE)
Infuser monk (LoD + infuse)
Water ele with SoR - runner / Rt/D runner (weapon of remedy, pious haste, some heal, splinter weapon, ancestor rage etc.)
For any questions, u can pm me in game (<~), or here on forum.
GL with ur guild again.
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Sep 19, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36
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#3
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Nov 2006
Guild: Xxx The Final Thrust Xxx[RIP]
Profession: P/A
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Ok ignore this guy please. Hex Pressure is not a good idea at all. Even if you get competitive with such a build you won't understand a great deal of the game because hexes are all about exploiting one little mechanic of the game.
I would honestly suggest looking on obs at other people's builds and see what they run. Pick a build that has a decent skeleton and has roles your guildies will want to play. I think for the beginning guilds the trick is more to have fun than to win and be competitive, because regardless of how good your build is, you will lose a lot(and the builds that are winning a lot are quite boring). So a build where you can learn and want to keep learning with the same players would be more important, in my opinion.
Look on obs at builds that have some basic stuff:
2 monks
2-3 melee
2-3 casters/semi frontliners(rangers/paragons)
1 flag running character
and pick the one that you and your guildies would most want to play.
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Sep 19, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38
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#4
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2006
Guild: Los Chavos Del [Ocho]
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mmm
noo dont run hexway.
It's better if u start running a balance, or just the typical metagame build.
I know, they need a certain amount of skill, but at least u need skills to run the build, not just spam hexes 12345.
So u will learn more running balanced builds than running hexway/gimmicks builds.
Where to find a good build?
Observer Mode, not wiki. Watch a lot of matchs, analyse..etc
Quote:
The best way to build a team of eight is to make the build around the team, instead of the other way around.
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I know its boring but is good if ur starting that u:
Read this Guide
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10172205
Specially section 3.
And this Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blame The Monks
As I read this week's State of the Game article and various unrelated flame threads on TGH, I realized many people -- including members of high ranked guilds -- did not know what a balanced build was. I thought it might be worth laying out for the community what exactly the term "balanced build" means as the term was historically used in GvG.
A Balanced Build is a Build that can Change Tactics
When people talk about a "balanced build" in GvG, it has nothing to do with skill balance or even with party composition. Perhaps the best way to think of balanced builds is to substitute in the word flexible for balance. Balance refers to the flexibility to switch tactics in a match. Traditionally, the "balance" refers to the balance between 1) Spike vs. Pressure; 2) 8v8 vs. Split; and 3) Defensive play vs. Offensive play.
Let me say that again -- simply because a team has two warriors, two monks, and four support does not make a team balanced. What makes a team balanced is the ability to adjust tactics.
Balance vs. Imbalance is a scale, a continum. On some level, every planned team build has a theme -- no team plans on doing everything equally well. Thus, there is no such thing as a perfectly balanced build. The point is not which theme a build is intended to use, but rather how well a build can adjust and to what extent a build allows tactical decisions to win games as opposed to simply relying on your prematch build and tactics. To get an idea of what I mean in terms of GvG, let's compare and contrast a shock axe warrior vs. a burst assassin.
Shock Axe Warrior (Balance) vs. Burst Ass (gimmick)
Ashock axe warrior (b strike, ESVIC, exe, shock, rush, frenzy, heal sig, res sig) has been a staple of the metagame for more than a year in part because it is highly flexible and effective. Esvicerate + Executioner makes an excellent spike, but this build is also reasonably effective in pure DPS. Likewise, it is effective in both team fights and in limited split duty. Finally, bstrike and shock provide disruption or utility that can be used to shut down the other team's defense, shut down their offense, or simply increase DPS. So although a shock axe warrior might go into a GvG planning to pressure targets out, if that didn't work out he could switch gears and begin adrenaline spiking, splitting, or even linebacking for VoD. The key is flexibility of build which translates to opportunities to win by making smart tactical plays.
By contrast, consider a standard ass burster (expose, SP, burst, bls, twist, bss, bos, res sig). Because of the nature of the combo system, the ass must devote almost his entire bar to unloading one combo. His combo cannot vary and if one hit fails, the combo fails and is worthless. Although the ass makes a great spiker, he is ineffective as pressure. Many asses don't attack at all in between combos, and those that do simply build up energy while they wait to spike. Likewise, the ass has no way to fight effectively in a split (no self-heals, movement control, etc). Finally, an ass has no way to effectively lineback or shutdown any part of another team. In short, because of the inherent setup of the build, the ass has only one tactical option avaiable -- it spikes. If the spike doesn't work, the ass cannot effectively switch to splits, pressure, or anything else. It must spike or lose.
This is why a burst ass is commonly viewed as a one dimensional gimmick while a shock axe warrior is commonly viewed as a balanced build. This generalizes to GvG builds as well.
Caster Spike vs. EuroSpike vs. Balanced Builds
Traditionally, the most imbalanced or gimmicky builds were caster spikes. A common example of this is oflame spike. These builds were imbalanced becuase they were the sum of their parts -- very few individual casters can effectively pressure and spike, much less split or adjust tactics otherwise. Caster spikes had one tactic and one trick only -- win or lose there was no tactical adjustment. However, this is not just limited to casters -- a team of 5 thumpers + 3 monks is equally imbalanced because the team can ONLY fight 8v8 as a pressure team.
More toward the middle, we have eurospike. Eurospike is largely dominated by a spike (and adren spike is in no way less gimmicky or imbalanced than a pure caster spike), it has more flexibility than oflame. Its warriors could split somewhat, it could generate marginal pressure, it could attempt to play defesnively and win at VoD, and so on. However, eurospike is NOT a true balanced build because it is heavily slanted to one tactic (spiking) at the cost of other tactics (split, pressure, etc).
Another sign of a gimmick is how they react to getting rolled. If a spike team gets rolled 8v8, they usually /resign. They resign because they know they have no other option to win -- either the one trick pony pwnys the opponets or you lose. By contrast, in a more balanced build if plan A fails (say for example a flagstand spike) the team will adjust and try something else, such as splitting.
So by definition, a balanced build is one that can vary tactics reasonably well. It is a build that can spike or pressure, split or 8v8, win at vod, play defensively if needed, and so on. In short, it is flexible. It has nothing to do with how many warriors you have. It has everything to do with what tactics you can run -- skill vs. build.
A balanced team can vary tactics based on the situation.
A gimmicky or imbalanced team relies on one powerful tactic to win.
A balanced team relies on each player knowing what tactic to use to win.
A gimmicky or imbalanced team usually only requires the team to execute (3,2,1 or hex spam, etc).
Each GvG as a balanced team is different as your tactics always vary.
Each GvG as a gimmicky or imbalanced team is very much the same as you always do the same things.
Why are Warriors so common in Balanced Builds?
This begs the question of why warriors are such a staple of balanced builds. The answer is simple -- warriors are by far the most flexible class in the game. Because of natural armor and heal signet, warriors are difficult to kill. This makes them naturally self sufficient without having to spend lots of resources and skill slots. This allows them to both split and fight 8v8 effectively. Warriors likewise can do solid DPS without needing lots of skill slots. Frenzy + 14 weapon mastery is enough to be an equalent DPS threat as almost any caster. However, Deep Wound gives warriors a very potent spike without compromising other areas. Finally, because of these other strengths warriors have the room to bring along utlity skills such as bull's strike, shock, and so on which can be used offensively or defensively. In short, a basic warrior can do just about anything reasonably well.
Compare this with asses (no pressure, limited synergy in groups, less survivable) and dervs (less spike ability, less survivable, less pressure...only a godmode push every two minutes). Even if the ass or derv may be better for a given build or tactic, overall they are far less flexible. All three are physicals, but only the warrior has the tools to adjust tactics.
This also carries over to casters and support -- toons that have the tools to effectively switch tactics are rare and those that can are staples of the metagame (water emos, burning rangers, dom mesmers). But fundamentally, its not about physical vs caster -- its just the fact that because of game design most physicals are more flexible than most casters. But this is not always true -- for example a dom mesmer is far more flexible than a burst assasin.
Why should Balanced Builds be prefered over imbalanced Builds?
So now that it should be clear what a balanced build is (IE, a flexible build), why do so many people think balance builds take more skill, are more fun, and should be encouraged? The answer is simple -- builds that are flexible win or lose more based on in-game tactical decisions and less on build. Likewise, most people enjoy the fun of outthinking the opponent, rather than just winning because your build was better.
But remember, balance is not an ideal that is better in of itself -- balance is better because it takes more individual tactical skill and decisionmaking. Flexiblity of build means nothing if your players aren't smart enough to know how to use the tools they have. This is why balance v balance almost always comes down to skill of the players involved, while imbalanced v. imbalanced plays so much like rock, paper, scissors.
Furthermore, because balance requires you to do many things well, you have to draw upon a broader set of correct plays. A spike requires you to be good at only one thing -- spiking 8v8. By contrast, a balanced build requires you to be good at many things -- you need to be able to spike, pressure, split, AND know when to do each. An inflexible or imbalanced build wins if the gimmick goes through (either by build advantage, map advantage, player skill, etc). If the single tactical option doesn't work, the team loses. By contrast, a balanced build wins when the individual players and the team as a whole can adjust the tactics of the build to make quality plays to get the win. This means that balanced players should learn more each game (as they learn better ways to use the flexibile tools they have) as well as gaining more experience in each type of play -- spike, pressure, split, etc. An imbalanced team only learns to do the same tactic over and over.
For these reasons from a game design perspective, balance SHOULD be the most powerful and most prevalent strategy -- because it takes the most player skill and is the most fun. This is also why gimmicks should not be able to overwhelm an average balance build -- when a team lacks the ability to adjust reasonably well to everything, it is forced to specialize and play R/P/S. For a tactical competitive game, this ruins much of the depth of the game.
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I couldnt find the post, but i found a quote in other forums :P
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Sep 19, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14
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#5
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jul 2007
Guild: HeRo
Profession: R/Mo
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Dont RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing listen to like people at all.
Just made your own build, it works best, let the people run their best classes, have good communication, say you run 2 wars, a snare, a burning arrow ganker, a anti melee necro, a mesmer, 2 monks, just remember that EVERYONE need to communicate, what hex is on that you? what condition? are you low on energy? is something/someone preventing you to do something. Also EVERYONE needs to do their part, ele need to run flags if he is the flagger, know when to cap, keep track of when they capped, did they cap? are they going to soon? support the team, help with spikes, snare their front line, be a bitch their build. Dont underestemate a single warriors spiking ability, call spikes on someone if they prevent you etc.
Run pressure, hexway, spike, it doesnt mather, eventully you know enough maps to get around fine, by then you have learned what other teams try to do etc, what their tactic is and then you can often know their next move based on what you do to them.
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Sep 20, 2007, 01:37 AM // 01:37
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#6
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I like yumy food!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Where I can eat yumy food
Guild: Dead Alley [dR]
Profession: Mo/R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drinky
...let the people run their best classes, have good communication...
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That would be also known as BYOB. Won't help you improve your gameplay much. Try running a build that you see run commonly in observer mode.
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Sep 20, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52
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#7
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Feb 2006
Guild: Striking Distance
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Best way is a mix of both. Steal builds off obs mode for sure, but definitely make sure that people are on the role that fits their strengths, preference, and they're comfortable with. Don't force people into specific roles just because you have to perfectly mimic another team. (I guess the exception is if you find that the people in your guild put together just can't form any semblance of a balanced build based on their preferred classes, then some sacrifices should be made to give yourself a sporting chance).
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Sep 20, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36
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#8
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Wilds Pathfinder
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Just run vodway. 1 DA para, 1 Blindsurge ele, 1 Sor/watersnare/runner, 1 Mor mesmer, 2 shock warriors, 1 lod monk, 1 sod monk, 1 BA or Cripshot ranger. Just watch OB mode and you get the builds really quickly.
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