Curse

twicky_kid · Aug 28, 2007, 12:55 PM // 12:55

The real thing hurting Sac skills is our life totals now. Many skills were created when 525+ hp would have been a lot of life. Those skills have never been tweaked for the 600+ life totals we have now. You simply sac too much life now. They need to be tweaked.

Falconer · Aug 28, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

On life sac:
I disagree... necros also have always benefited far more from low health setups as well so don't think they deserve a life sac 'revaluation'. Generally they're out of favour in the current meta because Anet has allowed for overstrong armor ignoring spikes (IMO no armor ignoring spell effect should do more than 80-90 damage). DP makes life sac skills better bargains for example in the same way that prot spirit on a DP'ed ally is much more powerfull than on a healthy ally (it gets stronger when your backs against a wall).

Oddball Brainstorm: Aura of the Lich might be interesting as a necro Avatar. Unsure on uses/abuses... but just an oddball thought out of left field.

Restricting myself to the ranger bits which I'm more familiar with:
Rapid Fire:
The skill is supposed to be bow only and has been acknowledged as a bug already. The problem is, bows need way more than a 33% IAS to actually be worthy contenders to hammers/scythes/spears. Is an extra attack for every 2 attacks worth the loss of damage from another prep, especially when you can easily use a stance IAS when needed.

If the 33% IAS from this stacked w/ IAS from RaO/LR/TF we might actually see bows see some occasional use over the R/P bunny chuckers. But this can't happen because of going back... IWAY + frenzy meant that IAS's were changed to no longer stack or were capped. I forget which, in any case bows still are the slowest of weapons meaning that anyone relying on IAS hits a in-game limitation cap pretty quickly which falls well short of a natural speed spear.

It also doesn't solve another problem. You're firing faster... but are you doing more damage than +prep would have provided in the first place? If you're chaining more attack skills faster, that means you're bleeding energy even faster as well. And 33% IAS isn't fast enough for bows to be spike threats in themselves unlike a sword/axe/dagger. 10 energy attacks are still unsustainable w/o elite energy management/outsourcing.

Sloth Hunters:
I'll take the cripshots word that it's more worthwhile now... I think it's in the same league as screaming shot myself. Lately as I see all the RC's in the current meta I hold to the opinion that feeding conditions just gives more healing power to the condition removal unless it can be disabled. So I like this a bit more... the conditional can be iffy at times though if you want it to spike.

Expert Focus:
It's a non-starter for PvP purposes I believe. It's cost reductions only apply to bow attacks and doesn't even extend to pet attacks. It's basically RtW +armor ignoring damage w/ a slight cost reduction that's almost completely offset by it's own higher activation costs.

Generally, PvP rangers are much more dependant on the 10 energy bow attacks. And there it's general utility is that it allows you to get away with only 11-13 expertise, where you would have had 14. Or only take 8-10 expertise when you would have had 12-13. The question is... what do you do w/ all these freed up attribute points?

It's hard to justify it over apply poison, or even over RtW. It's expensive at 10 energy (w/ low expertise), so barely covers its activation costs if you're only going to use 5-8 bow attacks in the 24s (typical ranger IMO) meaning it only nets you maybe 3 energy if you're lucky over 24s which you're paying for by higher costs for troll/natural stride/etc. Since it's additional reductions only apply to bow attacks the natural spot to put the 'recovered' attribute points is marksmanship... does anyone see a 14-16 marks bow ranger even as remotely viable or wanted when it has to compete w/ a 14-16 spear/axe/sword/hammer/scythe/caster?

twicky_kid · Aug 28, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

On life sac:
I disagree... necros also have always benefited far more from low health setups as well so don't think they deserve a life sac 'revaluation'.

In GvG and HA there is no such thing as a low hp set up. Unless you are a using a 2 handed weapon you will be at 600+ hp.

Zuranthium · Aug 29, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The simple fact is that losing at most 6 HP on use of a handful of skills isn't really going to change anything, health sac was meant as an additional cost to a skill and to discourage overuse of it, not a retroactive fuel for Masochism. If a skill is too expensive and needs Masochism as a justification for using it, then the skill probably just sucks and needs some other change.

Totally disagree. Conjure Nightmare requires Auspicious Incantation to become a good skill. Lightning Hammer requires dual Attunement to become good.

Masochism is simply an Attunement for life sac skills. And I've already shown ways in which skills would become effective with a 1% sac, so I still don't see any argument as to why it's a bad thing. If you're really going to continue with that line of argumentation, you should at least provide your own examples of possible skill improvements that would be better. But, nobody has taken that step. It would be more wise to discuss and actively involve ourselves in the creative process rather than just...bickering.

~Z

TheOneMephisto · Aug 29, 2007, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Totally disagree. Conjure Nightmare requires Auspicious Incantation to become a good skill. Lightning Hammer requires dual Attunement to become good.

Masochism is simply an Attunement for life sac skills. And I've already shown ways in which skills would become effective with a 1% sac, so I still don't see any argument as to why it's a bad thing. If you're really going to continue with that line of argumentation, you should at least provide your own examples of possible skill improvements that would be better. But, nobody has taken that step. It would be more wise to discuss and actively involve ourselves in the creative process rather than just...bickering.

~Z

None of the life sac skills are really that interesting. Wail of doom is okay, but you have to watch hard shutdown like that really carefully if it becomes playable. Blood ritual is emanagement, but with masochism that's just free energy for monks. Dark fury gets kinda ridiculous in physical-heavy teams.

If you want to rework sac skills, try to make them into something like less-powerful exhaustion skills. Have them pretty aggressively priced with decent effects, but make the sacrifice the reason that you can't spam it and have to watch using it carefully. Kinda like BiP (not that anyone uses it), but it has an extremely powerful effect, but using it puts you into really serious danger, especially quickly in succession. Give them versatile, powerful effects (keeping in mind that caster spikes will try to abuse the hell out of them), but make sure that the sacrifice is an actually important part of the price, like how exhaustion is the limiting factor of gale.

But TBH, none of the sac skills are just interesting enough to warrant that. Besides the ones mentioned, what do you have? Random pure damage, a bunch of MM stuff, and a couple curses that if you would run a masochism blood-curse necro, you might as well just run a pure-curse necro.

Xx_Sorin_xX · Aug 29, 2007, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

Anyway, it was never intended to work this way so all the haters don't have to worry about not using it anyway.

they dont hate the skill perhaps, just they realize its not logical to be on a melee person anyway because it wouldnt be all that effective. yes, everyone realizes a frenzy permanently with no double damage would be nice, but thats not what it is.

2 sec cast time? plenty of time for your target to get the hell away from you and get protted, into a ward, etc. negating anything you might have done w/ the 33% IAS that was "so beneficial"

and you have it up for 12, and then cast it for 2. 2/14. 1/7. thats about 15% i think. 15% where you'll just be standing there. what a waste of time on a character who is supposed to be applying as much pressure as possible. not to mention all the running around he has to do to get to a char while being slowed/hexed, and all the blinds that will be on the character already. another 15% of not attacking just sucks. and before you say the always IAS would make up for that time, read the paragraph before this one again.

Ekelon · Aug 29, 2007, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Feral Aggression is WAY too overpowered. I don't think very many people would like to see R/P's dominating the meta again (I hate R/P's for how strong they are already).

Mysterial · Aug 29, 2007, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Totally disagree. Conjure Nightmare requires Auspicious Incantation to become a good skill. Lightning Hammer requires dual Attunement to become good.

Conjure Nightmare and Lightning Hammer are both terrible skills, period.

yesitsrob · Aug 29, 2007, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Feral Aggression is absolutely absurd, yes.

Snype · Aug 29, 2007, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekelon

Feral Aggression is WAY too overpowered. I don't think very many people would like to see R/P's dominating the meta again (I hate R/P's for how strong they are already).

Its not overpowered...and if it is...why RUIN MY FUN BY SAYING IT IS?????

anyway on the more serious side

,

yeah its a TOTALLY overpowered skill, the DPS from one pet becomes to the point where it is ridiculous with that skill

Turbobusa · Aug 29, 2007, 06:22 AM // 06:22

agreed on feral aggression.
my pet hits for 40+ everytime it attacks, 120+ on enraged lunge. Insane!

IMMORTAlMITCH · Aug 29, 2007, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

in fact, a lot of cripshots are running a second bow attack already, usually hunter's or screaming shot.

Maybe cripshots in guilds that aren't on the ladder, otherwise no...

Winstar · Aug 29, 2007, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xx_Sorin_xX

they dont hate the skill perhaps, just they realize its not logical to be on a melee person anyway because it wouldnt be all that effective. yes, everyone realizes a frenzy permanently with no double damage would be nice, but thats not what it is.

2 sec cast time? plenty of time for your target to get the hell away from you and get protted, into a ward, etc. negating anything you might have done w/ the 33% IAS that was "so beneficial"

and you have it up for 12, and then cast it for 2. 2/14. 1/7. thats about 15% i think. 15% where you'll just be standing there. what a waste of time on a character who is supposed to be applying as much pressure as possible. not to mention all the running around he has to do to get to a char while being slowed/hexed, and all the blinds that will be on the character already. another 15% of not attacking just sucks. and before you say the always IAS would make up for that time, read the paragraph before this one again.

Look i realize there are some drawbacks to this at 2 seconds, but I don't think what you mention is as bad as you are trying to paint it. In the majority of cases you are going to be right on top of your target pressuring at 33% while in rush or some speed buff which means that you can pressure a lot more during those times than you could with just frezy or rush individually. Without rush they can kite, without frenzy your are doing less damge. 12 seconds is the minimum, but you could easily have it at 14 or more which means a lot of time in which you can constantly train something at a high dps rate without them getting away. In the vast majority of cases you are going to be applying that "beneficial pressure". You stop 2 seconds to put it up...then since you will likely still be in a speed buff closing a gap on that target won't be an issue or simply using c-space is good. As for spikes, don't call them when casting this. 2 seconds casting this isn't going to seriously waste your time by sitting around and the pressure than you gain from it during the course of a match will outweigh this loss. On a bar with frenzy there are already lots of times you won't use frenzy when you might otherwise want to and you cancel for rush. This is a drop in pressure. Without any damage drawback on Rapid fire you don't have those times as there is no such drawback. So you trade of a couple seconds of cast time on occasion for having to hold back or cancel frenzy and I doubt their would be a significant difference in the overall downtime of the ias throughout a match.

Interrupts imo are the main drawback on this skills 2 sec cast. There are other reasons not to use it. Other than this the ranger line doesn't offer many interesting skills. So, no conjure no shock, no rending for example. It may also work out really well on other kinds of melee, like sins. I'm not saying that this skill is going to replace bars with frenzy everywhere, but I think its being unrealistically underappreciated.

Vanquisher · Aug 29, 2007, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Masochism is a skill that was most definitely needed to make some of the crappy Blood Magic abilities more playable...I used it along with Wail of Doom, Angorodon's Gaze, Vamp Gaze, Blood of the Aggressor, Blood Renewal, Signet of Agony, and Rez Sig for RA. Spam armor-ignoring damage and make physical characters mad with Wail. Pretty fun.

The problem, though, is that the actual life sac abilities ALL need improvement. Blood Renewal requires way too much up-front health expenditure to be used as a decent self-heal, Wail of Doom should just sac 1% and hit and "adjacent" range (now it can actually have a chance at thwarting a train), Signet of Agony should also just sac 1% health and have the recharge bumped down to 10 seconds (e-management), and Blood of the Agressor/Dark Pact/Barbed Signet should all get minor buffs. I also would like to see Vamp Touch/Bite at 10 energy with a 1% health sac component to fit in with Masochism.

Good to see a bad line get some new toys...hopefully it can be shaped up well enough to where you can create a Blood Magic Necro that's truly as menacing as a Curses Necro.

~Z

That is one of the worst ideas for game balance I have ever heard.
Congratulations.

glountz · Aug 29, 2007, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

It may also work out really well on other kinds of melee, like sins.

I agree with you on this point. A +33% IAS before a sin spike, even if it costs 2 sec cast and lasts only 6 secs, is sufficient.
The fact is also that as a prep it cannot be removed. And simply that hurts. How many conjures did I strip from warriors in GvG ? I cannot count them. Best is stripping it as a Dom mesmer when they are under frenzy. Additionally, Melandrus Dervs with stance-removing Wild Blow are not that uncommon.
If Rapid fire was to be used with other weapons thant bow, we could begin to see it in play.
However it won't logically be available on other weapons than bows, so...

Feral aggression needs to be elite based. It is simply outrageous.

I'm not convinced by MAsochism. Not because it sucks, but as many said, that's the skills that will benefit from it that sucks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Conjure Nightmare and Lightning Hammer are both terrible skills, period.

Conjure Nightmare used to suck. Combined with Auspisious incantation it's a marvelous skill however. It actually changes from an energy sink to an energy boost. Remember that it will grant you +15 net mana to the end.

yesitsrob · Aug 29, 2007, 12:46 PM // 12:46

The only thing Conjure Nightmare has going for it is it's 25 energy and works well with Auspicious Incantation, as a skill alone it's horrible.

moriz · Aug 29, 2007, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Maybe cripshots in guilds that aren't on the ladder, otherwise no...

actually, most top guilds don't even run cripshots, so your statement is hard to back up.

the main reason why a lot of cripshots are forgoing the extra attack skill is because there are currently none available. the cripshot always played the degen/snare/interrupt role not because they cannot conceptually do damage, it's because there are no attack available that allows them to. sloth hunter's shot allows for it.

anyways, sloth hunter's shot on one of those escape rangers can be pretty interesting. extremely hard to kill, and can pack quite a punch combined with screaming shot.

Thomas.knbk · Aug 29, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

On life sac:
I disagree... necros also have always benefited far more from low health setups as well so don't think they deserve a life sac 'revaluation'.

Not true. You're right that if you have a lower max HP you're saccing less health, but that's reasoning the wrong way. If you sac 20% HP that means you'll be left with 80%, and 80% of 600 is more than 80% of 480.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Totally disagree. Conjure Nightmare requires Auspicious Incantation to become a good skill. Lightning Hammer requires dual Attunement to become good.

That's not really a fair comparison. AI does not only make CN viable, it's also pretty awesome energy management. (a purple +47 looks more awesome than it is because you have to invest 30e in it, but it's still awesome). Dual attunes don't only make LH viable, but also allow you spam the rest of your bar on recharge without watching your energy.
And as for already having shown ways in which skills would become effective with a 1% sac, IMO you haven't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

That is one of the worst ideas for game balance I have ever heard.
Congratulations.

Just thought you should read this again.

I didn't even know Vanqisher had a guru account.

Stormlord Alex · Aug 29, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

I quite like the look of Sloth Hunter's Shot. I can kill stuffs!

... and... Prepared Shot + Expert Focus = Heal Party Ranger? lololol
Discuss.

LifesRestorer · Aug 29, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

dunno if it's been said yet but...

Steadfast soul + Desparation/Drunken Blow + Grapple. fun fun fun