Curse

moriz · Sep 26, 2007, 04:13 AM // 04:13

one of the reason why the current blockway meta is so prevalent is because blockway is also the counter to its own counter: by layering on multiple layers of block, it makes it all the harder for ranger interrupts to shut it down.

so i propose a way to take away the incentive of layering on multiple partywide block skills: cap all block stacking to 50% block. obviously, individual skills such as SoD can still hit 75%, but take away the ability for blocks to stack past 50% will take a lot of the incentive in running multiple blocking skills.

Apok Omen · Sep 26, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

I lost count of how many times this was proposed, yet never looked at by Anet...

Thomas.knbk · Sep 26, 2007, 06:14 AM // 06:14

woudn't help much

Zabe · Sep 26, 2007, 06:51 AM // 06:51

50% stack wouldn't really help. You just chain so every second melee or ranged attack is blocked, in theory ofcourse. You need only like DA and 2 pieces of aegis and you got the chain, or 3 aegis or whatever and in top of that, melee ward + SoD. Ofcourse against meleeward + block chains it would be only 50% instead of 75%.

Greedy Gus · Sep 26, 2007, 07:33 AM // 07:33

The strength of having a ton of overlapped party passive defense isn't necessarily that they're so strong that way. It's that you have a high chance of having at least one of them up at almost any point even through enemy shutdown/interruption/removal, to keep spread damage shut down while you focus on active defense. This is why sometimes people will put up 2x aegis or 2x DA at the same time, if they know one will be interrupted (not as much anymore, because you have other skills overlapping).

Although, your suggestion would help stop the lower level teams that just use blockway to be able to get away with not kiting and spamming SoD like it's free. In the high levels of play with good coordination and player skill, blockway is one of the few ways to cope with efficient/heavy offense and disruption.

But the fact that it's the dominant play in upper levels means that it will of course be copied and spread down the ladder. This becomes a problem because teams further down the ladder don't utilize offense or disruption anywhere near as well, while the defensive stuff is all easy to use. So blockway is a pretty large problem in the midranks, causing lots of boring defensive play, while a DF vs. rawr match can end in under 8 minutes or be a dicey VoD game, even with all the same defense.

I guess you can try to thrash the passive defense skills to make them less playable, but I think the issue is primarily that they're all way too easy to use, versus how difficult proper disruption & efficient offense is. I think that's the direction to look in when trying to figure out how to balance the game, where offense and defense follow a similar player-skill progression from the casual play to competitive tournament level.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 26, 2007, 11:11 AM // 11:11

I'm pretty sure izzy stated several times that he can't cap block/miss percentages or at least cant do anything about the stacking (something about coding)

Wether or not this is true, I have no idea, but I wouldn't count on this ever happening.

Farin · Sep 26, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

bring mirror for aegis, hard interrupt for danthem(other than your mes) and then a mesmer who deals with BSurge/wards. It's not that hard and it works wonders.

Ec]-[oMaN · Sep 26, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

bring mirror for aegis, hard interrupt for danthem(other than your mes) and then a mesmer who deals with BSurge/wards. It's not that hard and it works wonders.

Aslo some splinter+ancestors for wards+chokes+vod...

Yue · Sep 26, 2007, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

So blockway is a pretty large problem in the midranks, causing lots of boring defensive play, while a DF vs. rawr match can end in under 8 minutes or be a dicey VoD game, even with all the same defense.

Pretty sure our defense is nothing close to the same as rawr's.

Also, the biggest problem with blockway is the ones that you can't deal with. Biggest example: shields up. Essentially takes out the effectiveness of an entire class for the duration that it's up. Paragon's don't rely completely on their attacks landing, while a ranger relies on interrupts. A skill that is unremovable and with 0 cast time that removes the reliability of an interrupt is bad. With aegis, you can mirror, drain the enchant, etc. It's removal and interruptible. Defensive anthem has a set recast timer, so just using the in game timer makes it fairly easy to shutdown. Not to mention it's a 2s cast and ends on someone that uses an attack skill. Wards also have a cast and recharge time. Though they can't be removed, you can take advantage of a team ward camping by forcing position. In the case of shields up, it is uninterruptible, unremovable, and stays on you even if you move out of range of the shouter. If changed to a 1 or 2s cast time, it would be alot more balanced.

Blockway in itself isn't that bad since an intelligent team will usually be able to shutdown the defense. However, it requires some patience unless you plan on spiking. It's the portions of blockway that can't be shutdown that's the problem.

Quote:

Aslo some splinter+ancestors for wards+chokes+vod...

Or we could spike amirite?

Riotgear · Sep 26, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

I don't think block capping would really do much in practice. I think it was Squidget who noted that the real issue is threat: A physical that fails to land their attacks 50% of the time loses a lot more than 50% of their threat. Rangers are hurt not only by the block, but are rendered a good deal less effective when GoLE is absorbing the risk of wasting energy if the cast fails. A failed Aegis is 10e less expensive than it used to be.

Dzan · Sep 26, 2007, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I think it was Squidget who noted that the real issue is threat: A physical that fails to land their attacks 50% of the time loses a lot more than 50% of their threat.

Spot on. Lets say a build can only force kills in an adrenal spike. Assuming the other team has a near constant 50% block, they won't get any kills. That means they have effectively no offense, and thus no threat at all. It's a zero sum game, either you can force spikes and you get kills, or you cant force spikes and you get no kills. The 50% chance to block might as well be 100% chance to block when you reach that point.

lishi · Sep 26, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Well, removing paragon from the game will help a lot.

Too bad it wont happen.
Adding a skill witch remove shut-echo-anathem will help

Vanquisher · Sep 27, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I'm pretty sure izzy stated several times that he can't cap block/miss percentages or at least cant do anything about the stacking (something about coding)

Wether or not this is true, I have no idea, but I wouldn't count on this ever happening.

Yet they could for snares and attack speeds?

Quote:

bring mirror for aegis, hard interrupt for danthem(other than your mes) and then a mesmer who deals with BSurge/wards. It's not that hard and it works wonders.

While we're at it let's Diversion every skill on their bars except elites, which we'll hit with Sig Humility.

Because we can definately do that and it's a good objective debate regarding balance.

Quote:

Biggest example: shields up. Essentially takes out the effectiveness of an entire class for the duration that it's up. Paragon's don't rely completely on their attacks landing, while a ranger relies on interrupts. A skill that is unremovable and with 0 cast time that removes the reliability of an interrupt is bad.

To be fair though, Rangers are easily the most versatile and effective class in the game, and without ways to prevent them from destroying you it is a bit stupid. Blind is a non issue with Mending Touch, and any forms of shutdown with a cast time suffer from the issue that Rangers can just interrupt all other forms of shutdown a lot of the time. Only problem comes when there are so many things they need to prevent that their stuff doesn't recharge fast enough.

Yue · Sep 27, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

To be fair, one skill shouldn't take an antire class out of the game.

Vanquisher · Sep 27, 2007, 02:00 AM // 02:00

No, and it doesn't. It just reduces the effectiveness significantly for a portion of time. What should really happen is that Rangers should just be nerfed slightly and Shield's Up nerfed massively.

But that won't happen.

erk · Sep 27, 2007, 02:03 AM // 02:03

There are plenty of can't be blocked attacks, and tools like Expose Defenses

Asking for a block percentage nerf to me is a form of "passive defense". If we cry to Izzy we wont have to put any effort into getting around blocking.

I though it was pretty lazy to lobby Izzy to get the recent anti-melee Necro hex, and Rit spike nerfs instead of learning how to play against them properly. You know what Anet are like when they nerf something it's not a slight re-balance, as a rule they make sure those skills nerfed drop right off the bar of most teams.

So by over nerfing blocking it would be HA style spike teams in GvG ftw.

Seamus Finn · Sep 27, 2007, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

No, and it doesn't. It just reduces the effectiveness significantly for a portion of time.

I guess, but its no cast time is kind of like easy button for dealing with rangers. Once I throw up my shields up my monks can probably get and aegis up and keep the chain going. I don't know any other skills that shut down other classes so well that have no realistic counter.

I personally find shield's up a great deal stronger than the other aspects of blockway, as I generally find the pressure and disruption of paragons and rangers to be harder to deal with as a monk than warriors.

Riotgear · Sep 27, 2007, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

There are plenty of can't be blocked attacks, and tools like Expose Defenses

Asking for a block percentage nerf to me is a form of "passive defense". If we cry to Izzy we wont have to put any effort into getting around blocking.

I though it was pretty lazy to lobby Izzy to get the recent anti-melee Necro hex, and Rit spike nerfs instead of learning how to play against them properly. You know what Anet are like when they nerf something it's not a slight re-balance, as a rule they make sure those skills nerfed drop right off the bar of most teams.

So by over nerfing blocking it would be HA style spike teams in GvG ftw.

This post is so bad I don't know where to begin.

- Expose Defenses allows one person to attack unblocked, and can just be removed.
- Most other anti-block tools suck, and for good reason: Your best anti-block skill is changing targets, blocks are SUPPOSED to discourage you from attacking the target.
- Target changing doesn't work when the entire team has permanent 50% block.
- How exactly do you suggest "learning to play against" pre-nerf hexes on Jade and ritspike? Better yet, how would you suggest to players of skill level equal to the scrubs that ran those builds, i.e. not very good?
- Yes, they are dropped off, I'm still lamenting the loss of Avatar of Grenth to this day. Oh wait...

twicky_kid · Sep 27, 2007, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I'm pretty sure izzy stated several times that he can't cap block/miss percentages or at least cant do anything about the stacking (something about coding)

Wether or not this is true, I have no idea, but I wouldn't count on this ever happening.

The question isn't can they at it. Its how much of the game are they going to screw up trying to add it in and how long will it take them to fix the problems its going to cause?

Bankai · Sep 27, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Actually, it is indeed impossible to cap block percentage. Unlike Speed or IAS it isn't a formula with all different factors. Instead, it first checks whether the attack is blocked by aegis, then it checks whether it's blocked by wards, then it checks whether it's blocked by SoD, etc.

It would still be awesome.