Curse

distilledwill · Sep 28, 2007, 08:14 AM // 08:14

I don't want this to turn into a flame-fest, or just people throwing "kurz suck" or the classic "Suxxons!" back and forth. So keep it civil.

Would you say that there is a fundamental difference in play style between luxons and kurzicks?

In terms of aesthetics, they differ greatly.

The luxons are bright and used to the open air, originally seafaring, so a little bit more piratey, possibly grubbier?

They like wide open spaces, the colour of jade, and they craft armours from shells and shards mined from the jade mines of Aurios and Rhea's Crater.
Used to the sunlight and dealing with the monsters of the deep, they usually wear bright face makeup in blue and red.

The Kurzicks, on the other hand, usually dwell in the shade, under the canopy of their petrified forest. Pale skinned and heavy eye makeup, their architecture is heavily gothic. They live in the ruins of old cities, and have a great affinity with the trees that have consumed their former homes.
Their armour is sleek and dark, made from petrified wood and metal.

Do you think these styles attract different types of players, and, therefore, differing playing styles? Giving the luxons and the kurzicks distinct differences in the ways in which ABs are conducted?

Again, i want to reiterate, please dont flame and rant.

go go go!

~ Dan ~ · Sep 28, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Yes. The kurzick vampiric feel attracts all the touchers.

Riotgear · Sep 28, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

While I'm sure plenty of people will say there are no real differences, as someone who jumps sides a lot, my win rate on Luxon map-for-map is considerably higher. Whether Luxons mob more or not is up for debate, but Kurzick players certainly whine about the mobbing more. :P

iridescentfyre · Sep 28, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

I am absolutely adamant that the two sides do not play differently. You're going to get tons of opinions stating one side does something more than the other, but everyone thinks that about their enemy.

If anything, the Kurzick-Luxon thing is a good example of the sociology of demonizing one side: Take a group of people, split them into two groups and assign them to different sides under a different name. Given enough time each side will generate a hatred of the other and rationalize it by inventing reasons and then convincing themselves those reasons are accurate.

As for the differences between the Kurzicks and Luxons as far as the GW Lore is concerned, I truly do not believe enough people care about it to let it influence their play. Once you get into the game, PvP is PvP. I've played a lot on both sides, and in my experience who appears to have more touchers/mobbers/wins/losses depends on which side I'm on at the time.

longhornrob · Sep 29, 2007, 08:01 AM // 08:01

The only real difference I see is that most of the Kurz stop playing once you get to Saltspray Beach. The maps are usually on Grenth's and Ancestral Lands, and I've heard its b/c the Kurz have a better faction pve quest, and so when the maps go out of their favor, they just turn to the pve quest instead. The Luxons do not have a worthy PvE faction quest, so they continue to play en masse in Grenth's and AL.

Once again, that's what I've heard.

iridescentfyre · Sep 29, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by longhornrob

The only real difference I see is that most of the Kurz stop playing once you get to Saltspray Beach. The maps are usually on Grenth's and Ancestral Lands, and I've heard its b/c the Kurz have a better faction pve quest, and so when the maps go out of their favor, they just turn to the pve quest instead. The Luxons do not have a worthy PvE faction quest, so they continue to play en masse in Grenth's and AL.

Once again, that's what I've heard.

As a Kurzick, I'm more likely to play on Etnaran and Kaanai Canyon due to the double and triple faction rewards. And trust me, the Kurzicks think the same thing about the Luxons on our side of Saltspray Beach.

I assume the Kurzick PvE quest you're talking about is FFF, and anyone who actually likes or is good at ABing isn't doing that... so I don't believe it truly affects anything, other than cheapening the Kurzick title track for many.

Riotgear · Sep 29, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

I am absolutely adamant that the two sides do not play differently. You're going to get tons of opinions stating one side does something more than the other, but everyone thinks that about their enemy.

I don't let lore dictate who I play with, I'm nearly second-rank on the faction turn-in tracks on BOTH sides. Most of the complaints (i.e. the theory that Luxons mob more) are probably grounded in perception rather than reality. 600 games worth of win/loss checking, however, would suggest that in general, it's easier to win on Luxon than Kurzick.

In theory, the differences are superficial, but you can look at World of Warcraft where the Horde/Alliance differences are also superficial, yet Alliance tend to suck in PvP on almost every server. Maybe it's the type of players they attract, who knows.

iridescentfyre · Sep 29, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

In theory, the differences are superficial, but you can look at World of Warcraft where the Horde/Alliance differences are also superficial, yet Alliance tend to suck in PvP on almost every server. Maybe it's the type of players they attract, who knows.

While that may be true, having played both sides a lot and settling on Kurzick, I notice no issues with winning. Sometimes I get streaks of 10+ wins, sometimes nothing. Same happened when I was Luxon.

Div · Sep 30, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

In alliance battle, everything is the same for both sides. Any fundamental difference in play is a direct result of the people playing the game at the time, and doesn't represent an overall feel. Also, the fact that you (and maybe your friends) are on a certain side may change the playstyle as well, so it's really hard to get data.

Take my games for an example. At saltspray, when I play kurzick with a group of friends, I see that kurzicks win 3/4 of the matches even though it should be even. That might lead to the premature conclusion that kurzicks > luxons. However, I then play many games on the luxon side, and realize I win 3/4 of the matches on the luxon side. Sometimes, one team (or even player) can turn the tide of battle enough to win a game. Mobbing is also a direct result of mindlessly following the group. It really depends on who's playing any given round.

Before anyone discredits me with the "oh he is just a GvGer and don't know anything about AB" I have a combined ~2 mil luxon/kurzick faction donated, mostly from AB/FA, so I've played my fair share of games (or maybe a little too much...)

bungusmaximus · Oct 01, 2007, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

In alliance battle, everything is the same for both sides. Any fundamental difference in play is a direct result of the people playing the game at the time, and doesn't represent an overall feel. Also, the fact that you (and maybe your friends) are on a certain side may change the playstyle as well, so it's really hard to get data.

Take my games for an example. At saltspray, when I play kurzick with a group of friends, I see that kurzicks win 3/4 of the matches even though it should be even. That might lead to the premature conclusion that kurzicks > luxons. However, I then play many games on the luxon side, and realize I win 3/4 of the matches on the luxon side. Sometimes, one team (or even player) can turn the tide of battle enough to win a game. Mobbing is also a direct result of mindlessly following the group. It really depends on who's playing any given round.

Before anyone discredits me with the "oh he is just a GvGer and don't know anything about AB" I have a combined ~2 mil luxon/kurzick faction donated, mostly from AB/FA, so I've played my fair share of games (or maybe a little too much...)

Saltspray is winnable by one team, don't need to discredit someone for that. If only ONE team has the brain to go around the center instead of mobbing on the bridge it's auto win

longhornrob · Oct 01, 2007, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

As a Kurzick, I'm more likely to play on Etnaran and Kaanai Canyon due to the double and triple faction rewards. And trust me, the Kurzicks think the same thing about the Luxons on our side of Saltspray Beach.

I assume the Kurzick PvE quest you're talking about is FFF, and anyone who actually likes or is good at ABing isn't doing that... so I don't believe it truly affects anything, other than cheapening the Kurzick title track for many.

There must be some reason then as to why the majority of the time I play, the map is either in Grenth or Ancestral Lands. By majority I'd say it's got to be at least 60-70% of the time. I'm not exaggerating. I've probably played 70+ matches in AL, and only 10 or so in Kanaai Canyon. Do I just always come in at the wrong time of the day? And no, I don't leave when it's on a certain map.

iridescentfyre · Oct 01, 2007, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by longhornrob

There must be some reason then as to why the majority of the time I play, the map is either in Grenth or Ancestral Lands. By majority I'd say it's got to be at least 60-70% of the time. I'm not exaggerating. I've probably played 70+ matches in AL, and only 10 or so in Kanaai Canyon. Do I just always come in at the wrong time of the day? And no, I don't leave when it's on a certain map.

Personally I feel like I'm on Etnaran more often than any other map. Time of day seems to be a factor.

distilledwill · Oct 01, 2007, 02:02 PM // 14:02

I have noticed that it seems to stick on Grenz quite a lot, but as you say Iridescentfyre, that may just be the time of day that i tend to veer towards the AB arena.

Timeless Logic · Oct 01, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Time of day is definitely a factor, but having played extensively on each side I believe there are several ingredients for a successful AB. I paste this message, or something similar, into the opening of every AB, regardless of the map or my win-loss ratio that run:

Capping helps more than kills. If the Luxons/Kurzicks zerg a control point, move on and take another. Zerging, while helpful in offense, hurts on defense, so run a cap circuit and we'll do fine.

Whether or not you agree with that strategy, having a solid tactical formula is critical in AB. I used to only paste that message when I felt like typing it out and formatting it to fit, but I find my win-loss ratio to be considerably better when I use it and folks listen. Think about it from a role-playing perspective. The Luxons and Kurzicks are battling to gain control of territory, not to raise the other faction's body count. If you want to slaughter the enemy, go run a trap group in Zaishen Elite. In AB, coordination and execution ride shotgun.

I also notice a major difference in my success rate when one or both sides insist on taunting the other. If I land in a flame war, I'm gone, dishonor be damned.

This may sound silly, but name recognition helps a lot. I use the same name for all my AB characters (Fetch Me A Muffin) and people begin to recognize me, even if they frequently change names. Teams built of veterans, regulars or even reasonably knowledgeable players are more likely to succeed, and success earns respect, a key component of effective leadership.

Lastly, don't pick the first party search entries you stumble across. Many players spam invitations and enter because they can't predict the makeup of the other groups. It's important to build a successful team, even if your group is the only efficient of the three. This helps you function as a unit and enables party members to split off and help others when necessary. If at all possible, I form a group with 3 of my real life friends, and if they aren't on I group with players whom I trust in PvP or who convince me of their qualifications.

Regardless of faction, the team that combines all of these elements, or at least more than their opponents, will more than likely emerge victorious. AB is considered by many a more casual form of PvP, but in Guild Wars even casual PvP requires more input than most games. I hope this helped.

Timeless

FoxBat · Oct 01, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Kurzies on average have longer wait times, hence they get to spend a little less time actually playing, hence a little less practiced. Wait times also become more trying for people that plan to play over and over, so you lose more frequent players that way. Of course its easy for any individual to compensate for these factors, but as a group they can't. Thus why most American time is spent on Grenz.

Also, the FFF matters. The faction-farming quota Kurzick guilds spend less time in AB than their luxon counterparts, and that right there is a significant difference in terms of experienced people playing. Even average payouts for kanaai barely surpass a 4-man run, and that's assuming you win more than lose.

iridescentfyre · Oct 01, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Also, the FFF matters. The faction-farming quota Kurzick guilds spend less time in AB than their luxon counterparts, and that right there is a significant difference in terms of experienced people playing. Even average payouts for kanaai barely surpass a 4-man run, and that's assuming you win more than lose.

The good players—the ones who enjoy AB'ing—aren't going to stop just because they can get more faction per hour by FFF'ing. If my own alliance is a good example, there's a lot of Kurzicks doing FFF runs, but its never the good hardcore AB players. Its the kiddies that just want to get to X,XXX,XXX faction as soon as they can, (maybe I'm an elitist, but) its the ones you probably wouldn't want AB'ing with you anyway. That's why I feel that FFF isn't cheapening or diluting the general Kurzick skill levels... if anything, its purging out the bad players and leaving the good ones who really enjoy AB'ing and earning the titles via skill.

Snow Bunny · Oct 01, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

The skill level is generally the same.

I.e., a lack thereof.

There are exceptions of course...but...

I think AB can be very fun.

But it takes so little skill.

Play style is the same. I'm kurzick and I tend to see more assassins on the kurzick side I suppose...who knows.

FoxBat · Oct 01, 2007, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

The good players—the ones who enjoy AB'ing—aren't going to stop just because they can get more faction per hour by FFF'ing. If my own alliance is a good example, there's a lot of Kurzicks doing FFF runs, but its never the good hardcore AB players. Its the kiddies that just want to get to X,XXX,XXX faction as soon as they can, (maybe I'm an elitist, but) its the ones you probably wouldn't want AB'ing with you anyway.

Its nice that you've divided people into two exclusive camps, but you need to look at the reality of those in the middle. There are people who are going to face both tensions of wanting faction fast but wanting it to be enjoyable. The gap between Jade Arena and AB isn't nearly as large as for Kurzicks, and JA is actually slower when you get the underdog bonuses. So that means more people in the middle will fall on the AB side for the luxons. These players may not be incredibly skilled either, but they will be better at AB than your average person entering the place simply because they play it every day.

Also, if you compared the faction costs to control towns during the AB bonus weekend, you would notice the Luxon costs shot up much more than the Kurzick ones. I don't know what else you could attribute that to.

longhornrob · Oct 02, 2007, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

Personally I feel like I'm on Etnaran more often than any other map. Time of day seems to be a factor.

Interesting. I wish I had the time to do a detailed study and figure this out. The only thing I ever do on GW is Alliance Battles, so I'd like to know as much as I possibly can about its mechanics.

As for the time of day factor, I usually always play in the PM and early AM hours, usually between 11pm-8am.

Dr Strangelove · Oct 02, 2007, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Well, this is pure speculation but:

There are more Kurzicks than Luxons, which is why Kurzicks tend to have longer wait times for AB.

Since there's a smaller number of Luxons, a few really good or really bad players can significantly change the overall structure of a team. Thus, Luxons are more prone to streaks of wins and losses. Kurzicks, on the other hand, have more people, so individuals don't have as much of an effect on the overall quality of their teams.