Curse

Rapture · Oct 01, 2007, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Greatest GW Finals Ever ...
... If you couldn't tell, that was sarcasm.

ohok, i was about to flame you for lack of wm vs lum in your post.

and no, people cant tell. far too many people are actually impressed by this crap.

Vaga · Oct 01, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

As if anyone would ever resign to the french, what a shit country.

DIH49 · Oct 01, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

This thread is amusing. I thought the final game a very fitting one to a playoff series that was essentially "who can be the worst at GW" deciding the games. From running a 0 defense build against a team noted for heavy offense (MoJ v DF) to coming in with no VoD skills and playing a stagnation game against a team with HEV and a Mel Derv (vD v rawr), this AT was basically a big lesson in how not to play. Frankly, I don't get it. I know most of the players, and I know that most of them are a hell of a lot better than I am. Yet, they made silly mistakes that eliminated teams from ever getting to playoffs in the CT. Anyways, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Yes, if vZ hadn't had a drop they probably would have won (honestly, aegis on the runner instead of extinguish?), but as the saying goes: if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

Vanquisher · Oct 01, 2007, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

This thread is amusing. I thought the final game a very fitting one to a playoff series that was essentially "who can be the worst at GW" deciding the games. From running a 0 defense build against a team noted for heavy offense (MoJ v DF) to coming in with no VoD skills and playing a stagnation game against a team with HEV and a Mel Derv (vD v rawr), this AT was basically a big lesson in how not to play. Frankly, I don't get it. I know most of the players, and I know that most of them are a hell of a lot better than I am. Yet, they made silly mistakes that eliminated teams from ever getting to playoffs in the CT. Anyways, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Yes, if vZ hadn't had a drop they probably would have won (honestly, aegis on the runner instead of extinguish?), but as the saying goes: if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

Because Guild Wars is full of bad people dominating the top tier that can't ever adjust build, or fit in counters, because they don't want to, instead chosing to bitch consistently about the skills in the game, when they know exactly what they're going to be running into and won't take any proper counter for it and just build wars the other team out.

Seriously, tournaments that are won by 1 build teams just show how stupid both teams are. The one that only runs one thing because they only run one thing and are dumb and bad, and the ones that lose to the team running one thing because they don't know how to play anything else and are dumb and bad.

DIH49 · Oct 01, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Because Guild Wars is full of bad people dominating the top tier that can't ever adjust build, or fit in counters, because they don't want to, instead chosing to bitch consistently about the skills in the game, when they know exactly what they're going to be running into and won't take any proper counter for it and just build wars the other team out.

No, that is not true. GW is full of really good people who are too damn complacent. It's not like their forebears were any smarter- the modern players are just as intelligent and skilled as their predecessors. It is that people have forgotten what they should have learned from iQ or the CT: metaing people wins games. That is why vZ was able to do so well in the tourney (not to say that they are bad or anything, merely that some foresight and an RC or Extinguish would have been rather crippling). Instead of trying to outbuild their opponents somewhat, people just came in with their regular builds and smashed them against each other. I'm not saying that they should have had a specially designed counterbuild already set up. That's just silly. What I am saying is that getting someone on obs to find out what your opponents are doing, and then changing around the adaptable parts of the build you're experienced with is a really smart thing to do. Had people done it, I think this playoff series would have gone a lot better. But as I said earlier, the players are pretty sharp. I'm confident that they won't take the same mistakes into the next playoff series.

ChopChop · Oct 01, 2007, 08:48 PM // 20:48

It is always easier for an outside observe to pass judgment on choices made by the teams playing.
When you are playing over 10 gvgs (most of which go to VoD) and games do not even stay on obs mode (swiss rounds), it is very hard to know exactly what to expect from a guild when you only have 5 minutes until the game to do any kind of research.

That is also why in the CT you saw a lot of great mind games going on, because people had days to ponder over what to expect from certain guilds, 5 minutes to both research and adapt is just not enough to do much about things.

Without going into to many details, we basically need to have our build decided on with at least 3-4 minutes until the match, and even then its sometimes a bit of a panic game to get people rolled up, that is the single reason you do not see guilds swap builds too much, it just isn't possible to change the build completely every game.

Also to the people saying we don't change, I don't think we played 2 games in a row without changing skills, few skill but still some changes here and there (ok, granted maybe we did paly 2 when we did not expect trouble against a certain team.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 01, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Because Guild Wars is full of bad people dominating the top tier that can't ever adjust build, or fit in counters, because they don't want to, instead chosing to bitch consistently about the skills in the game, when they know exactly what they're going to be running into and won't take any proper counter for it and just build wars the other team out.

Seriously, tournaments that are won by 1 build teams just show how stupid both teams are. The one that only runs one thing because they only run one thing and are dumb and bad, and the ones that lose to the team running one thing because they don't know how to play anything else and are dumb and bad.

this pretty much sums things up; people that try to argue against it only do so because it hits too close to home.

Scritch · Oct 01, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

We played condition pressure in 3 games out of 11 (we played balanced or rawr build in the other ones). Not that it really matters, but I read tons of posts saying that we are random noobs who got there just by playing this overpowered build, so...

For those 3 games, we played condi pressure against rawr because Be Team told us they raped rawr with it. Since we all knew rawr would not really change their build, and that condition pressure is pretty much the only way to roll on defense ball, we runned it even if it was obvious we were going to do so.

Sry for crappy english :x

LionZero · Oct 01, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

to coming in with no VoD skills and playing a stagnation game against a team with HEV and a Mel Derv (vD v rawr),

There where two moments in that game that broke our victory,

1. being the flagreturn.
2. being the push to save one of the split members.

VoD went fine at the start, as rawr dropped on both sides.

It was mainly our flagrun disadvantage we had to gain back, resulting in less presure at the middle in vod, duo war arriving later, and giving an npc disadvantage.

The drops on rawr resulted in the rest of the team remaining to fall back and collapse on the gankers, where we nearly finished another emo aswell, but he barely got away.

At this point rawr had pretty much the full team ressed up again, and our split tried to get out, the rest of our team pushed for our splitteam and tried to save the emo which on first eyesight seemed to go well, but got spiked out nevertheless, this move however messed up our positioning and used up a lot of energy from our monks while we still had a few npc's firing on our team aswell, this resulted in rawr just rolling over us, and we didn't have the forces nor the resses left anymore to recover.

However the initial game-tactic worked out well, as rawr had to push back in base giving away boosts, and died on both sides in vod.

Nevertheless the two gamebreaking moments caused us to lose our advantage and chance on winning.

DIH49 · Oct 01, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopChop

It is always easier for an outside observe to pass judgment on choices made by the teams playing.

Made, I agree. Making, not so much. It isn't hard to go in and obs the games and see mistakes as they're being made. Most can be attributed to the tunnel vision of the insider. The big ones, however, can not. Yes, it's hard for you to get good information in the 5 minutes between matches. That is what I meant about learning from the CT: you don't get the information, you get someone who you know is obsing to do it for you. For example, there's no reason you couldn't have just PMed me and asked me to scout out what people were doing. In the CT nothing was on obs. You found out what people played by asking all the people who had played them earlier. I see no good reason that shouldn't be done in these ATs. Against vZ, for example, it would have taken an observor a good 3 minutes to tell you that if you bring RC and Extinguish you basically autowin.

Quote:

Also to the people saying we don't change, I don't think we played 2 games in a row without changing skills, few skill but still some changes here and there (ok, granted maybe we did paly 2 when we did not expect trouble against a certain team.

To be fair polly, I don't think people are talking about swapping an individual skill around. Rather, they're talking about a full on build change. I agree with you that that can be very hard to do in only 4minutes though. I don't really see what the big deal is about swapping builds around though. It's obviously not required to win, so why bother? Showing off to gwp strikes me as more pathetic than the mark of a good player.

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 02, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

I would prefer the AT system to play qualifying rounds on Saturday and let the top 16 play on Sunday. I realize it commits more time but it would allow you to scout your opponents and have a couple builds ready if you so choose. Of course allowing more time on the 2nd day between games. I think it might be kinda of interesting. Plus i have no idea why they can't keep up more good games on observer mode during the tournament.

The 5 minutes after you see your opponent isn't enough to coordinate a build verse a team unless its already been pre-decided.

tyrant rex · Oct 02, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

i liked how the healing piller called awowa bad

Vanquisher · Oct 02, 2007, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Cross posting yeah!

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

While I recognise that there are some players who are still extremely talented in terms of gameplay, the average has dropped quite significantly. I've said it several times before so I won't bother boring people with all the expansion of it, but when teams can only really run 1 build it means they're easy to beat. Quite simply, the only reason they aren't is because all other teams can only run 1 build also. The addition of various skills, or rebalances of skills, has also made various things far more effective, and easier to pull off. Mesmers are obviously the best example, as their bars now are so retarded they pretty much consist of Diversion being 2 out of every 3 casts. The entire bar people run on Mesmers consists of just that 1 skill, and they only ever really use it for one thing. I mean, you just have to look at the Glyph of Essence bar people run to see that (Essence, Lesser, Diversion, Ward, Shatter, Recovery, interrupt, Res).

But I've strayed from the point - people who refuse to outbuild their opponents in tournament settings are pretty terrible. Like I said, the reason it doesn't happen more often is because they only want to run one build, or only can run one build. It's been seen time and time again that rawr have such a poor response to split, yet people are naive enough to think they can easily 8vs8 them at the stand. Alternatively they won't run something that can absolutely demolish their build deficiencies, of which there are enough to take control. From what I've heard of this tournament, which consisted of reading that thread on Guru quickly, vZ was the same. Condi pressure all tournament, no change, and still managed to in easily. There are probably many more examples of how absolutely retarded people are, but I don't know them as I don't really fancy watching 18 minutes of a boring slugfest only for one team to win at VoD easily or whatever.

As for being confident they won't make the same mistakes, this is the second in a row I know of, and I'm not entirely sure but how often did vD really change their builds in the two tournaments they won? And whoever won before that.

I'm gonna end this with just one comment - WM vs. iQ in GWFC Finals, game 3. WM saw iQ had run VoD stuff, and they went with what? 3 dom mesmers to completely destroy such a strategy as they'd have massive VoD power too, as well as playing on Warrior's Isle so iQ couldn't just hug the Lords nuts forever. To go further, didn't they also split at the beginning (and maybe throughout) to keep one of the Aegis chain iQ had going on away, after identifying that when that happened, iQ got badly hurt against eF?

I'm not 100% sure on all of those details, but there is a lot of truth to most of it, and that's the kind of sharp play, as well as good execution, that is missing from GW now. How many teams have that much forward thought, really?

(Added) - Polly, I'm not referring to subtle changes. It's more the important ones. Hard counters when you're pretty well informed as to what you'll be playing against. The thing is, it's usually a two way thing. More often than not, neither team can significantly change their build, because they've got so accustomed to playing it and are out of practise/rusty when it comes to playing anything remotely different. When 4/5 teams all run the same thing anyway, it becomes even harder, because even if you guest you'll be playing the same role if you've been effective on it in the past.

Ekelon · Oct 02, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Seems like DF should get the gold trim then

Anyone know what happened to NoT? Did they lose some players or just all of a sudden got bad?

NoT pulled like a vD this month. It's a more inactive guild due to real life conflicts (compared to some of the guilds who play everyday and get tons of practice in, even if they do have bad win:loss ratios).