Curse

Lorekeeper · Oct 02, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Why dont we see split builds like we used to? Why are guilds only splitting reactively rather than proactively?

The reason why i am posting this, is due in part to the reaction to the overly defensive meta that has become such a stubborn part of GW GvG since Nightfall. I am puzzled why guilds arent opting to go AROUND defensive 8vs8 abilities (like wards and aegis chains and defensive anthems), rather than fighting them head on like banging their heads against brick walls instead of walking around them.

I have my own ideas why, but i was interested to hear what other people thought.

In addition, could you perhaps post ideas on how GvG can encourage split style play rather than ward camping?

Tab · Oct 02, 2007, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Because it's easier to camp in ward untill VoD then win using Splinter and AoM.
You still get the occasional guild like iQ running AoD split though.

Yichi · Oct 02, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=44

that is all.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 02, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Dedicated splits that guilds like RenO (w/e their new name is) and BG run don't really take any more skill than ward camping blockway.

And 18 min VoD makes defensive play with VoD abusing skills (splinter, dervs, etc) more rewarding than split builds.

wuzzman · Oct 02, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

actually there was offense in Nightfalls, but all that was nerfed to hell. And since people actually forgot what real passive defense looks like, they did short sided nerfs to elimante defensive options that allowed MORE OFFENSE, but meh. I'm looking forward to when people forget why we have passive defense and axe/hammer warriors will get nerfed.

Lorekeeper · Oct 02, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Dedicated splits that guilds like RenO (w/e their new name is) and BG run don't really take any more skill than ward camping blockway.

And 18 min VoD makes defensive play with VoD abusing skills (splinter, dervs, etc) more rewarding than split builds.

your own guild dT used to run a proper split build. Rit/ele WoR, Ranger BHA/BA/Crip shot, and a sword/axe warrior. I wouldnt say splitting against a team with bad split defense takes alot of skill. But splitting with a split squad against another properly designed split squad is a fun and skillful part of GvG i miss alot.

Sending 2 SP sins with a monk or 2 warriors and a monk (ala reno or BG) on a gank does not constitute a proper split in my books. They are only effective in a meta where people are bringing very little in terms of anti-gank defense, or in a meta where teams just arent used to or experienced in fighting away from the stand. BG's gank takes advantage of the fact that most of the anti melee defense people bring is static and is most effective at the stand. Having 2 warriors inside a base cannot be countered by a ward or a DA para. And since bsurge eles are less and less popular, having both sides of the split heavy in physical is actually pretty smart metagaming. I would never call it a proper split build tho because it fails when faced with any real defense.

But yeah two of the reasons why we see less and less splits have been posted already.

1. Lack of ability to do so - top 100 full of monobuild monocharacter guilds.
2. Lack of any time to do so - 18min VoD.

LifesRestorer · Oct 02, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

18 min vod, nerfs to offense but no nerfs to defense. paragons.

Yichi · Oct 02, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

actually there was offense in Nightfalls, but all that was nerfed to hell.

It got nerfed to hell because that offense removed almost all defense...

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 02, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

In addition:

GvG monk bars at the moment are stand based. If you design a split or a balance that can split you'll have a few problems.

1. SoR runners are very good base defenders, especially in 18 minute matches. You'll need to be able to counter them to kill NPCs.
2. LoD and SoD monk rely on each a lot and are not good by themselves, LoD in particular. Your stand team will always need 2 monks. Making 4-4 options much less viable.
3. Most 5-3 options have to engage, SoR, Warrior and Crip shot (maybe a mesmer or another ele). Making progress slow inside the base. 5-3 options usually include a monk because sins die too much.
4. 1-2 person splits really need more time. Warrior and ranger split still have some success.
5. VoD mechanics- overall NPC's are still wiped to easily b/c of AoE, Dervishes, splinter, Ancestor's rage. Etc. Any advantage you may have netted would be wiped in seconds if the other team has brought those mentioned.
6. The lack of good role models running this style of build. Most splits are run 2 sins+1 monk and this gets mirrored by the rest of the ladder. If more guilds became successful with this i'm sure it would spread. Is this only because everyone is bad at the game as others will suggest?

I played a few matches that i can recall where i played a good split with a ranger, warrior and the flagger and mesmer came at points as well and were able to get boosts and NPC advantage. Problems that arose that made me disheartened were as follows.

1. Ganks at VoD are too easy on certain maps. I remember on Frozen having this problem and even with a huge Npc advantage they rushed lord and we had to fight there for the rest of the game as their lord never moved because ours was aggroed. Druids another good example of an easy gank.
2. Npc's come in waves but without brains. They still ball up like before.
3. AoE still the king of VoD and the team that has good AoE doesn't care about an Npc disadvantage.

I'm sure there's plenty i've missed and others i've overstated.

-razz

Seamus Finn · Oct 02, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

actually there was offense in Nightfalls, but all that was nerfed to hell. .

The passive defense is really so attractive because even in such defensive builds there is a lot of offense.

I think the predominance of what are essentially monk runners(rits,monks, and SoR eles), combined with the shorter match length make splits less attractive. Since the other team already has a monk foundation, they can roughly equate whatever you are splitting offensively at them, which means you have to resplit if you want to make progress in time for the new VoD, which most "split" guilds don't want to do, because well, they really aren't very good at splitting.

... and I like Battle Gods. I think that their splitting is usually more dynamic than reno style where you know you will get two sins and a monk-type-guy.

karunpav · Oct 02, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

the meta says no.
that's basically it.

Lorekeeper · Oct 02, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

[BG] are one of the very few guilds who out of sheer principle refuse to run what everyone else is running because it ''works''. They have alot of experience doing what they do, and unfortunately for other guilds this is splitting. Regardless whether they are successful with it, i think that is an admirable attitude to take and guilds who stubbornly follow the meta should take note of the fact that you can still be successful running non-meta.

But i didnt really want to steer this discussion to naming particular guilds i wanted to discuss in general the reasons why splitting is not seen as much anymore. And i think its becoming clearer as more people post, its just interesting to see the different opinions.

So far it seems that the VoD mechanic plays a crucial role in the reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by karunpav

the meta says no.
that's basically it.

This is exactly the type of post i was hoping i wouldnt see.

DutchSmurf · Oct 02, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

It is very simple, to win a gvg you need to kill their lord. It happens to be a lot easier to hold out for 18 minutes and make that lord come to you instead of going to get him yourself. Also because the current runners usually have a high chance to hold on for a long time and only giving up npcs slowly. However, removing half of the npcs would probably make splitting to win (not to get an advantage for VoD as all splitbuilds are basically doing) a better option.

Farin · Oct 02, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

18 min vod
defensive meta
yeh

we used to split a lot when we first formed but then people ran so much defense that once you had them 8v8 it didn't matter because they just blocked you into oblivion. at vod they would just send 3 defensive chars back and keep another 5 at the stand while you sat there with your thumbs up your ass. Splitting works fine when the meta is somewhat offensive. Of course none of this matters on frozen so you can expect splitting from us in the upcoming AT rotation

Vanquisher · Oct 02, 2007, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Dedicated splits are bad outside of tournament play because they do not grant teams the diversity they need to win matches on a continuous basis. In tournaments, with people failing to change builds much, they should really be dominating all those who prefer to play 8 vs. 8 stand matches, but people don't put in the time to practise and thus fail when they attempt to run them.

Div · Oct 02, 2007, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Why dont we see split builds like we used to? Why are guilds only splitting reactively rather than proactively?

The reason why i am posting this, is due in part to the reaction to the overly defensive meta that has become such a stubborn part of GW GvG since Nightfall. I am puzzled why guilds arent opting to go AROUND defensive 8vs8 abilities (like wards and aegis chains and defensive anthems), rather than fighting them head on like banging their heads against brick walls instead of walking around them.

I have my own ideas why, but i was interested to hear what other people thought.

In addition, could you perhaps post ideas on how GvG can encourage split style play rather than ward camping?

Because we get called noob by running a split

There are still some top guilds that run proactive splits, like RenO and BG, but it requires a lot of coordination and strong map knowledge. When playing RenO in the monthly on Isle of the Dead, I can say that they felt a lot more comfortable and were splitting much more naturally than we were, and in return they won the game. In part, this is because of my lack of matches on that map (aka I've played less than 100 games on there). To run a split effectively and know when to split what proactively, you have to have a much deeper understanding of the map mechanics than a 8v8 blockway.

Having played hundreds if not 1000+ games of proactive splitting (with sins, warriors, mesmer, and necros), I noticed that if you can't wipe their entire base by VoD, a defensive 8v8 build can beat you down even with their NPC disadvantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Dedicated splits are bad outside of tournament play because they do not grant teams the diversity they need to win matches on a continuous basis. In tournaments, with people failing to change builds much, they should really be dominating all those who prefer to play 8 vs. 8 stand matches, but people don't put in the time to practise and thus fail when they attempt to run them.

Very true. I felt like we were very comfortable with the split on Druids, Imperial, Nomads, and Frozen, but horrible on Jade and Dead. When you try to run a split on maps you're horrible at, you get beaten badly

Thom Bangalter · Oct 02, 2007, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

It got nerfed to hell because that offense removed almost all defense...

wanna take a ride on the derv train?

Yichi · Oct 02, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

wanna take a ride on the derv train?

not really....

Vaga · Oct 03, 2007, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Another reason is that in 6/2 and 5/3 splits it's kind of difficult to make an effective flagstand team (apart from hexes). Many guilds will just mirror the split leaving you with the option to try progress 5v5 and 3v3 or collapse. If you collapse then you somehow have to shutdown the web of defense before they get back to 8v8 which just isnt viable as collapses only produce a small amount of time to make kills. If you continue to fight 5v5 and 3v3 then 18 minutes generally wont be long enough for anything to worthwhile to happen. Build's are so defensive now even 30 minutes might not have been enough time.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 03, 2007, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

your own guild dT used to run a proper split build. Rit/ele WoR, Ranger BHA/BA/Crip shot, and a sword/axe warrior. I wouldnt say splitting against a team with bad split defense takes alot of skill. But splitting with a split squad against another properly designed split squad is a fun and skillful part of GvG i miss alot.

Splitting is fun, dedicated splits are not because they rely more on buildwars than anything. Btw, I wasn't in dT for that.