Curse

ockhams · Sep 21, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

i remember izzy saying he liked the way LS played gvg so i started watching them a few months back. and though they didn't run typical builds, they stayed competetive in most matches and they were very interesting and exciting to watch (haven't seen them much lately tho).

they relied heavily on splitting and tactical advantages rather than 8v8 bull-headed bouts that go nowhere or even the dedicated split builds that send the same two or three people out on a split farming the same gaggle of NPCs the same way every time. i think there could be much more creative tactics employed by the more talented players or even the up and comers who want to change the meta. things as simple as sending a split from both entrances to a base or using 2 players relay-flagging or a dedicated run stopper who might go find the opposing flag runner.

creativity just for the sake of being unique may be "overrated" (like some players on these forums who try to convince everyone that theirs is the one true way) but it is something that keeps the game fresh and exciting, which is the complaint with obs mode according to this post. i think it could be effective to shake up tactics and as a result want to bring a different build.

the very fact that when someone says there can be other skills used to counter something, then the response is "that skill is bad" or "what skill should i replace on my existing bar to be able to do that," shows a lack of creativity and an assumption that the current bar is perfect and shouldn't be changed. but then the next sentence is usually "imba! imba!" these same people will blame the game because it doesn't force them to have to bring something new and fun to play.

i think the copy/paste guilds are what make obs mode boring and trying to change one or two skills in a team build isn't going to make obs mode any more exciting. get real. do something different.

Vanquisher · Sep 21, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

An interesting game is one where both teams are almost equally match, and the winner comes as a result of one team capitalising on a mistake and/or outplaying their opponent. The game should not be balanced so observer mode can be interesting at the sake of the game being fun to actually play. The game should also not be balanced so as interesting but single geared builds are more effective than those that are at a disadvantage against some types of build but can still win.

When one team takes a heavy split, and get beaten by a balanced team and playstyle, it's good. The more balanced team will have been at a disadvantage and it's far better than an R-P-S style of game.

Promoting the changing of skill bars just for the sake of creativity or just to counter certain things is the wrong way to go about balancing the game. You should not be forced to take skill x just so you can deal with skill y. You should always have a chance to beat skill y despite the fact you are not taking hard counters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

And even if you do remove Para's from the game people will just bring another blind bot. Now it be Blind/Blockway ^_^. To add some comfort, back in the prophericies meta every match lasted to VoD. And that was when VoD was 30-45 minutes ^_^. Honestly the only guilds team rolling people back in those days was Evil, WM, and IQ.

You're so wrong it's ridiculous. Please get informed before making dumb posts like that.

I'd rather have a competitive 45 minute match than block block block for 18 minutes. We had a match vs. emt on Char once which there was only 1 kill in prior to 30 minute VoD, I think. It was one of the best matches I played in because almost everyone was on top of their game. We eventually lost that game, but it was still really good fun to play.

DutchSmurf · Sep 21, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

I'd rather have a competitive 45 minute match than block block block for 18 minutes. We had a match vs. emt on Char once which there was only 1 kill in prior to 30 minute VoD, I think. It was one of the best matches I played in because almost everyone was on top of their game. We eventually lost that game, but it was still really good fun to play.

I have to admit those matches at times were the most fun to play in, because you have to be focused that long and a single mistake will cost you the game. After 2 of those in a row it got very boring tho. And nobody watching the game will enjoy it. And that is a problem if you want to make it a serious pvp game. And even worse, nobody watching that game will want to go try it himself. Why would you want to go try a game in which nothing seem to happen for 20/30 minutes?

ockhams · Sep 21, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Promoting the changing of skill bars just for the sake of creativity or just to counter certain things is the wrong way to go about balancing the game. You should not be forced to take skill x just so you can deal with skill y. You should always have a chance to beat skill y despite the fact you are not taking hard counters.

agree... with an asterisk.
i understand what you mean i think, and i agree that you cannot force players to play something that wouldn't be necessary most of the time (counters specifically for shouts or spirits for example). but here's my aterisk: physical damage is not the only way to deal damage, so saying that players have to have a block-bypassing skill in the current meta is just not true. however, if you are going to depend on dealing physical damage, whether it be for spikes, pressure, kd's, interrupts, whatever, you should have a way to ensure that you can deal that damage effectively. even if they happen to have skill y. and especially if it's likely they have skill y (i.e. "y" is the current meta).

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

I have to admit those matches at times were the most fun to play in, because you have to be focused that long and a single mistake will cost you the game. After 2 of those in a row it got very boring tho. And nobody watching the game will enjoy it. And that is a problem if you want to make it a serious pvp game. And even worse, nobody watching that game will want to go try it himself. Why would you want to go try a game in which nothing seem to happen for 20/30 minutes?

very well put. totally agree.

wuzzman · Sep 21, 2007, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

An interesting game is one where both teams are almost equally match, and the winner comes as a result of one team capitalising on a mistake and/or outplaying their opponent. The game should not be balanced so observer mode can be interesting at the sake of the game being fun to actually play. The game should also not be balanced so as interesting but single geared builds are more effective than those that are at a disadvantage against some types of build but can still win.

When one team takes a heavy split, and get beaten by a balanced team and playstyle, it's good. The more balanced team will have been at a disadvantage and it's far better than an R-P-S style of game.

Promoting the changing of skill bars just for the sake of creativity or just to counter certain things is the wrong way to go about balancing the game. You should not be forced to take skill x just so you can deal with skill y. You should always have a chance to beat skill y despite the fact you are not taking hard counters.

You're so wrong it's ridiculous. Please get informed before making dumb posts like that.

I'd rather have a competitive 45 minute match than block block block for 18 minutes. We had a match vs. emt on Char once which there was only 1 kill in prior to 30 minute VoD, I think. It was one of the best matches I played in because almost everyone was on top of their game. We eventually lost that game, but it was still really good fun to play.

so basically whoever has the best VoD strategy should win. Blockwars ftw, 250% VoD strategy.

twicky_kid · Sep 22, 2007, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

so basically whoever has the best VoD strategy should win. Blockwars ftw, 250% VoD strategy.

The game has been that way since factions. The only time the game even had a reprieve from the VoD builds was during Grenth Derv's hay day.

Everyone complained about it because it ran through the def too fast. Now all we have is def and everyone complains about that.

I never for once thought that Grenth nerf would help the game. Then again I always loved the old KGYU play style. Give me balls to the wall offense anyday.

wuzzman · Sep 22, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

well in the factions meta there was thumpway, man matches went fast....poor blight monks couldn't heal the pressure.

twicky_kid · Sep 22, 2007, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

well in the factions meta there was thumpway, man matches went fast....poor blight monks couldn't heal the pressure.

Rit spirit spam was the meta during season 2 then it got nerfed. Thumpers came during the "fun" season which wasn't worth squat.

Vanquisher · Sep 22, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

so basically whoever has the best VoD strategy should win. Blockwars ftw, 250% VoD strategy.

Pretty sure there's a huge difference between trying to break and team and trying to prevent a team breaking you, and just hitting layers of passive defense to make it ridiculously hard to break teams but not anywhere near as hard to keep teams alive.

wuzzman · Sep 22, 2007, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Rit spirit spam was the meta during season 2 then it got nerfed. Thumpers came during the "fun" season which wasn't worth squat.

I don't think the fun season had much to do with the rise of thumpway. If they had a tournment and players were using blight backlines you really think that thumpway wouldn't be used?

twicky_kid · Sep 23, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

I don't think the fun season had much to do with the rise of thumpway. If they had a tournment and players were using blight backlines you really think that thumpway wouldn't be used?

The fun season reset the ladder. Everyone used it to grind up to the top. Once counters became known guilds switched bulids and stayed on top with a high rating lead.

Vanquisher · Sep 23, 2007, 11:34 AM // 11:34

When there is a requirement for quick ladder grind, teams will play quick effective builds. While these builds won't work against good players to anywhere near the effectiveness that they will against bad teams, such builds are chosen because if you win 90% of your matches and gain 30 rating, and then lose 10 for losing vs. a good team, you've still gained rating enough to make it worthwhile.

Making the ladder important is one of the key issues that must be employed in making this game fun to play once again. Automated Tournaments are annoying and bad.

Razz L Dazzle · Sep 23, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

When there is a requirement for quick ladder grind, teams will play quick effective builds. While these builds won't work against good players to anywhere near the effectiveness that they will against bad teams, such builds are chosen because if you win 90% of your matches and gain 30 rating, and then lose 10 for losing vs. a good team, you've still gained rating enough to make it worthwhile.

Making the ladder important is one of the key issues that must be employed in making this game fun to play once again. Automated Tournaments are annoying and bad.

Agreed

Old ladder system with thoughts of going to a world championship playing for money had a nice incentive. AT's for a video card and a useless ladder is a result of mismanaging and lack of understanding of what PvP players wanted.

Neo-LD · Sep 23, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Tbh thats the right idea but going in the wrong direction. Ladder farming encourages quick, aggressive games, which we want, but it also devalues the significance of every particular match, which is exactly what we dont want. People need to have incentives to focus on trying to win in every single match they play, so that each individual match is competitive. Rushing through the motions in glorified R/P/S isnt what anyone wants.

Currently, teams have plenty of incentive to play comeptitively in every game, which is good, and that should stay. The problem is that in order to do so, almost the only playable builds are incredibly boring and defensive vod-ways. Like we've been saying around here for the past few weeks, nerfing all this passive crap and buffing a bunch of active stuff will do a ton of good towards alleviating the problem - without going back to terrible ladder grind.

twicky_kid · Sep 23, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Ladder grind is still here. Look at the top 2 teams. They have played many more games than most of the other teams in the top 20.

Right now vD sits over 100 points above #2. They can take a break for about week and still be in #1. As time goes on that disparity between the top teams and everyone else is just going to keep growing. Eventually getting to the point of playing for about a month straight for 10 hours a day for a new guild to catch up. In the end that will push more people out of gvg. Is it important to grind the ladder? No its not but there is no reward for GvGing. Being able to say "my guild finished X season in XX rank" was enough for most players to keep playing.

I do like the new point system because it makes more sense but no resets is kind of dumb. That doesn't promote competition at all. All that really promotes is running a build with the highest win percentage which is a VoD build.

Razz L Dazzle · Sep 23, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Tbh thats the right idea but going in the wrong direction. Ladder farming encourages quick, aggressive games, which we want, but it also devalues the significance of every particular match, which is exactly what we dont want. People need to have incentives to focus on trying to win in every single match they play, so that each individual match is competitive. Rushing through the motions in glorified R/P/S isnt what anyone wants.

Currently, teams have plenty of incentive to play comeptitively in every game, which is good, and that should stay. The problem is that in order to do so, almost the only playable builds are incredibly boring and defensive vod-ways. Like we've been saying around here for the past few weeks, nerfing all this passive crap and buffing a bunch of active stuff will do a ton of good towards alleviating the problem - without going back to terrible ladder grind.

Agreed with some of it. Playing on the ladder is useless at the moment, the old system had flaws devaluing wins i'll give you that but the historic ladder idea is worse in my oppinion. Looking through a list on inactive guilds makes me wonder exactly how many guilds are left that are playing consistently? I bet the number is much lower than i'd guess. I couldn't care less where we stand and i only play ladder matches for practice and others do for the champ points. Albeit you'll get a few fun matches but that gets mixed in with Defensive meta, heroway, Dancing dagger garbage. Also waiting 20 minutes plus for a +0 isn't worth it. AT's are rampant with forfeits and the times of these aren't very convenient as i can rarely play all 5 matches for the amount of time i have to commit + the late start times. And at the end i get some shiny weapon. Wow, its shiny....

Zabe · Sep 24, 2007, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Somehow people think too much of the so said "balanced build" is the only way to go. Guild Wars has been ever since the release of the game the game I liked because you could face _ANYTHING_ coming against. Thats why balanced builds are there, they can counter nearly anything. You can say recall ganks are gimmick etc. I don't care a shit, SS isn't overpowered, you just need to counter it somehow. The game has been about counters since the beginning. Or why do we carry meleeward? Because in 99.9% of cases, there will be melee's against us, so it helps. Same goes for SoD and BSurge etc, those are counters for melee's. There are counters for casters etc. It really imo doesn't measure skill if you just run same build all the time. The skill in my opinion depends from that you can design a build too.

As there are different kind of builds, well, lets say there is balanced, split builds, pressure builds etc. Pressure relies on the pressure, they will need to break the enemy monks, what if you can't do that? Well, then you'd be better inventing some tactics fast to win the game. At the bullshit blockway what it is in obs atm its just the same shit. 18 mins to vod to anything to happen, the build is 9999/10000 cases same.

Everyone cries about shadowstep splits, well, you just have to deal with them, send enough people to base etc. recall etc. split relies alot to the fast movement and good splitting, but stand is usually weak.

And you can flame on me. I perhaps don't have the top 100 GvG experience. But you don't need to be a world champion in football to understand something about it. This game needs more shaking, really. Everyone just runs the same build, gets boring, not only Anet is killing this, but PvP guilds also kill this game.

twicky_kid · Sep 24, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

The issue is the 8 skills per bar limit compared to the number of skills that have been added to the game.

In prophecies you could counter any build within your build in some way. Now there are simply too many skills to counter and no extra room to bring the counters. The 8 skill limit is the best thing the game has going for it so I would never ever suggest changing that.

I would like to see a restriction on skills per chapter. Allowing prophecies only or core + X chapter during the ATs that week. Rotate the line up.

You'd never have to do another skill balance because the game would balance itself. The meta would always be shifting without changing a single skill. Anet screwed pvp because they had to promote the new skills otherwise there would be no reason for pvp players to buy the next chapter. Its $$$ over quality.

Zabe · Sep 24, 2007, 08:47 AM // 08:47

If you start to counter skills by skills, you really make it buildwars. Ofcourse, the game has been about builds ever since the beta, you have 8 skills, you can only use those, that makes it build vs. build, so yes, its build wars. But, you have to counter things in larger fields. Does your build have enough hex removal? If not, what will you do against hexpressure, will you just slash resign, try to split or anything? If you run against 3/5 or 4/4 split, can you react to the split? Balanced build can do about anything, thats why people like it. But even more I enjoy just something so fun as recall etc. People just think too much about that, lets do that everyone uses same 64 skills, then its player skill vs. player skill.

Vanquisher · Sep 24, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Tbh thats the right idea but going in the wrong direction. Ladder farming encourages quick, aggressive games, which we want, but it also devalues the significance of every particular match, which is exactly what we dont want. People need to have incentives to focus on trying to win in every single match they play, so that each individual match is competitive. Rushing through the motions in glorified R/P/S isnt what anyone wants.

Yeah, and that was always the fundamental problem. However, point systems, as well as win percentages, and points per game ratios all combined would help solve it to a certain extent. It would be extremely difficult to find a properly balanced medium, but it would be far better than the bullshit that's run today to see bad people running offensive builds and losing to good teams, rather than bad people running defensive builds and having the chance to get lucky and beat good teams.

Quote:

Currently, teams have plenty of incentive to play comeptitively in every game, which is good, and that should stay. The problem is that in order to do so, almost the only playable builds are incredibly boring and defensive vod-ways. Like we've been saying around here for the past few weeks, nerfing all this passive crap and buffing a bunch of active stuff will do a ton of good towards alleviating the problem - without going back to terrible ladder grind.

The ladder is pretty worthless and honestly there is so little point in taking anything seriously after getting to 1200+ rating. You're always going to be hitting those Champ Points, you'll get quicker matches if you tank yourself, and the AT's are the only things that generate cape trims so what does it matter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zabe

Everyone cries about shadowstep splits, well, you just have to deal with them, send enough people to base etc. recall etc. split relies alot to the fast movement and good splitting, but stand is usually weak.

I wonder if you understand the monumental advantage of shadowstepping as a mechanic. The extra mobility it provides is definately imbalanced and there is no decent way to counter it. The only one that exists really is hugging your Guild Lords nuts until he walks to the stand. Okay, their stand team is weak, but with geared splitting you're making the build under the assumption that they're going to have to deal with your split. You then run the offensive options at the stand to destroy a team who sends players back to deal with your split and have a retarded addition in collapse potential because you can bounce around the map until you hit puberty.

It's not player skill vs. player skill when one team has a significant advantage in terms of build, and it never will be. The only way to make it about player skill is to have completely random maps, all maps available, and see what happens. Then people won't be able to run things that are generated with the sole purpose of winning on map x because they may not play on it.