Curse

moriz · Sep 16, 2007, 11:04 PM // 23:04

i guess my concept of creativity is different from some of you. my concept of creativity (and it's also shared among many of the top gvgers) is not what you put into your build. rather it's based on how you play those skills to your advantage. putting together a unique build is not creative: anyone with a passing knowledge of the game and gvg standards can put one together. what truly differentiates those with skill from those without is the ability to use that same build that's been run countless times, and make it do something that's totally unexpected and remarkable, and win the match because of it. this unique ability is not often seen, and that's what skilled play is truly about.

having the current number of skills, even if they are balanced, does not contribute to a fun game. even if they are perfectly balanced, there remains the possibility that team A with build X will completely counter team B with build Y, and there is nothing team B can do in order to win. the outcome of the battle was decided even before both teams load. the outcome of the battle was not decided on who outplayed whom, but whose 64 skills (60 skills realistically, have to take 4 away for rezzes) just happened counter the other team's 64 skills. the outcome of the match will then no longer be based on the skill of the teams, and that's bad for any competitive game.

if you ask many of the older gvgers, you'll probably find that almost all of them agree that the metagame of prophecies and the metagame just before the GWFC tournament being the best. both those metagames features fast and furious action, with a lot of shutdown, disruption, splitting, pushes and counterpushes, collapses, etc. the game was dynamic, freeflowing, and brutally fast. entire matches were decided upon the way the players are playing, and not by what the players are playing. by subscribing to a global sealed deck system, it is possible for us to bring that metagame back. nothing else will do it. yes, you can skill balance until you go blue in the face, but in the process you'll piss of PvEers who use those skills and refuse to change (yes, we must all be carebears! -.-), and you'll be nerfing so many skills you might as well delete them, thereby creating the same environment as the global sealed deck. it's also much easier and takes less effort to just create this global sealed deck, and adjust whatever's in the deck, instead of messing with the skills themselves.

Zuranthium · Sep 17, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

having the current number of skills, even if they are balanced, does not contribute to a fun game. even if they are perfectly balanced, there remains the possibility that team A with build X will completely counter team B with build Y, and there is nothing team B can do in order to win. the outcome of the battle was decided even before both teams load.

That will only happen if team B is running a build that is overpowered and prompts team A to run a direct counter. If team A does do that, they become more vulnerable to non-team B builds.

Players don't like doing that and people wouldn't have to run such specific, amazingly direct counters if bad skills didn't exist.

Mirror of Disenchantment, for example, is just a terrible skill. It's totally viable because Aegis is overpowered, plus the chance of running into Tainted Flesh, but it's not something that should be in the game because it promotes exactly what you're talking about. Which is why I say that if you FIX these things, the situation you describe wouldn't be much of a problem.

Unless teams run the EXACT same build, one team is generally always going to have some kind of tiny advantage in build over the other. That, however, is just fine. The difference should be small enough that the team who plays the best will win 99% of the time and I DO think that's possible to do while maintaining a great range of diversity in the options players have.

~Z

moriz · Sep 17, 2007, 01:51 AM // 01:51

possible? maybe. probable? no.

the GW devs have shown to be unable to properly balance the skills. my ideal simplifies their job immensely, and will have the same end result as achieving balance across all skills. sure there are less skills, but how many skills that "removes an enchantment" , or with any other effect, do you want? we've already seen new skills that are similar to older skills in effect but based on more obscure (sometimes overpowered) mechanics.

the game will function fine (better, actually) with 300 skills. that's a fact.

Vanquisher · Sep 17, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ockhams

the complaint was things aren't balanced becuz you can't deal dmg on a team that blocks everything. consider an eviscerate/agonizing/executioner bar. you deal something like 60+DW, 50, & 70 if they don't block. but chances are they are going to have some sort of block skill on them.

i'm not suggesting you drop all the other skills either. if you kept all those skills and ran swift chop on that same bar (while someone else uses defile defenses) you deal 20+DW & 100+ dmg if they do happen to be blocking.

i'm just suggesting it might be one of the ways to counter the current meta. get off my nuts.

Well, it won't.

Apok Omen · Sep 17, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

The real problem isn't that teams are too defensive, it's that there are too many threatening melee damager classes now:

Prophecies: You had the Warrior and Ranger as the only physical damagers.

Warrior is one of the most destructive classes in any RPG. Mostly because of their energy restrictions and need to go melee to deal damage is how their balanced. Frenzy being the only real effective IAS at the time completely balanced them out due to the drawback on the skill.

Ranger is the most versatile class even imagined. Their bow attack skills didn't do that much damage and the bow attack speed is the slowest in the game. Ranger spike was where their damage was most respected, but balanced because of "obstruction" mechanic and only one real skill to counter it, Shields Up!. But they made up for their damage with ways to provide passive pressure: conditions, and different but slow ways of spreading them. Also, interrupts up the ass.

Factions: Introduction of the Assassin.

Assassins brought with them one of the most unbalanced mechanic in any game: Teleportation without requirements. ( the necro teleportation skills need corpses, which is balanced imo) With this mechanic, Assassins could (unrealistically, I might add) teleport straight to their target.

Now, this wouldn't've bad, but then Assassins were given ways to deal massive damage in 2 seconds. Even though most of them needed to be combined, Anet made "special requirements" for a few select skills. Also, without the need of adrenaline, this task was simple for any 10-year-old Naruto wannabe. Jump-in, slash, dead. But the combination with Expose Defenses and an IAS coupled with the Assasins naturally fast attack speed, they were basically impossible to stop, yet Guilds have stomped them before due to lack of survivability.

Nightfall (aka The Overpowered Revolution): Dervishes and Paragons

Never a good idea. Not in theory, paper, and especially in-game.

Dervish: This prof was able to be immune to conditions, able to hit up to three targets with more than 41 damage each without the need of a skill, have many survivability skills, easily remove enchantments, and spike as quick as an Assassin. All in just one bar.

Now, this has been hit with the nerfbat and buffwand so many times, it would've been simpler just to change everything altogether with the many suggestions given by highly respected players and guilds. But, like any other MMORPG company, they didn't want to admit their fualts, even though we would've forgave them.

Paragon: Read above posts, my fingers hurt too much to type the many faults with this prof.

Now four of these five can hit for a huge amount of damage by itself, two out the five are balanced due to them being core, and all five are used heavily in the metagame. The only way to stop them was the meta-blockway, and not even that can last for 18 minutes against top 400 guilds. Fix the hard-hitters, and you'll see an absence of blocks.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Sep 17, 2007, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

starcraft has a static number of abilities and units. there are some good strategies involved, yes, but there aren't a lot of them.

You have never seen SlayerS' BoxeR play.

On topic, Obs is pretty boring these days.

Zuranthium · Sep 17, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

possible? maybe. probable? no.

the GW devs have shown to be unable to properly balance the skills. my ideal simplifies their job immensely, and will have the same end result as achieving balance across all skills.

How is that the same end result? It's not at all. You're forcing players into one specific area of playstyle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the game will function fine (better, actually) with 300 skills. that's a fact.

LOL? No it's not. The game is an MMORPG. Having the freedom to play and customize whatever kind of character you want is part of that. That's the entire reason I started GW in the first place ("Wow, cool, a fantasy game that is heavily PvP where I can continually create any kind of character I want at max level and play around with tons of different combinations of abilities").

~Z

moriz · Sep 17, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

the old prophecies and factions metagame functioned just fine on ~300 skills. since you don't think GW can exist on 300 skills, are you suggesting that the prophecies and factions metagame.... did not exist? in fact, the current gvg metagame consists of about ~400 skills, about a 100 of them consisting of passive button-mashing and overpowered crap. shave those off and you'll get a pretty good metagame... which is what a global sealed deck accomplishes.

GW is not a MMORPG in the classic sense. it's a CCORPG, and is not completely bound by the rules and requirements of a MMORPG. in gvg specifically, it needs to be treated more like a FPS/RTS combination than a RPG, since that's essentially what it is: once your off the drawing board and into a game, it's all tactics+strategy+reflexes. you are not roleplaying anything in gvg.

DreamWind · Sep 17, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

I vote for putting PvP back to Prophecies only. Of course...that has been mentioned a million times and will never happen so this is a waste of a post.

selber · Sep 17, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Well, it won't.

Hm, it's exactly how it will go down the road. Things like Way of the Fox or Guided Hands, heck even Cunning are not thing to pressure teams, because those are too short, but if you put them into one of those very hyperdefensive "balanced builds" (lmao) they will do their job. Kill someone every 2 minutes. GG! Sure, not very exiting, but it works also vs. good guilds.

If you look for skills that counter this blockmeta on the pressure side it's still hexes, HEXES and HEXES, then maybe Anthem of Guidance and things like desease + poison - things that are AL-ignoring. Anyways, it's noth not very entertaining or really fun to play. I doubt they care to fix this "fun-to-play-issue" in GW1. Deal with it.

Zuranthium · Sep 17, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the old prophecies and factions metagame functioned just fine on ~300 skills. since you don't think GW can exist on 300 skills, are you suggesting that the prophecies and factions metagame.... did not exist?

The metagame is not THE GAME.

The metagame should be constantly shifting in small ways and, in the end, not make a huge difference anyway since the build that is ran should be based upon what you and your team feel like playing. You want people to "feel like playing" either condi pressure or dom mesmers, basically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

in gvg specifically, it needs to be treated more like a FPS/RTS combination than a RPG, since that's essentially what it is: once your off the drawing board and into a game, it's all tactics+strategy+reflexes. you are not roleplaying anything in gvg.

Not a strict sense you aren't, no, but you're still playing a fantasy a game with the character of your choice and those choices should be wide-ranging.

Basically, you're trying to argue about how to salvage a dying game. I'm saying that half-assed solutions are pointless because they won't prolong the game any longer than whenever it is that another game has come out with with similar gameplay and better graphics.

~Z

Vanquisher · Sep 18, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by selber

Hm, it's exactly how it will go down the road. Things like Way of the Fox or Guided Hands, heck even Cunning are not thing to pressure teams, because those are too short, but if you put them into one of those very hyperdefensive "balanced builds" (lmao) they will do their job. Kill someone every 2 minutes. GG! Sure, not very exiting, but it works also vs. good guilds.

I've actually been telling people to run such things for a while. I was more referring to Swift Chop / Leviathan Sweep / Irresistable Blow etc. While those skills are only really good for spikes in most cases, when fighting vs. ward campers you can do some decent pressure with skills like Splinter Weapon / Ancestor's Rage powering you up. It comes in especially effectively if you've always got a Ranger or Power Lock on their LoD, as they just won't be able to heal all the residue damage easily. Also brings base resing much more into the game, and I think we both know how effective that is.

Shmanka · Sep 19, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

I've actually been telling people to run such things for a while. I was more referring to Swift Chop / Leviathan Sweep / Irresistable Blow etc. While those skills are only really good for spikes in most cases, when fighting vs. ward campers you can do some decent pressure with skills like Splinter Weapon / Ancestor's Rage powering you up. It comes in especially effectively if you've always got a Ranger or Power Lock on their LoD, as they just won't be able to heal all the residue damage easily. Also brings base resing much more into the game, and I think we both know how effective that is.

I agree that skills like this should be included but what do you suggest taking out?

The common skills on any given warrior at the moment are these 4:
[skill]Bull's Strike[/skill], [skill]Rush[/skill], [skill]Frenzy[/skill], [skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill].

On Sword Warriors You will commonly see:
[skill]Crippling Slash[/skill], [skill]Gash[/skill], [skill]Sun and Moon Slash[/skill].

Axe Warriors Will Carry:
[skill]Eviscerate[/skill], [skill]Executioner's Strike[/skill], [skill]Agonizing Chop[/skill]/[skill]Disrupting Chop[/skill]

Hammer Warriors:
[skill]Devastating Hammer[/skill] / [skill]Earth Shaker[/skill], [skill]Crushing Blow[/skill]

Then there are the secondary utilities.
[skill]Rending Touch[/skill], [skill]Shock[/skill], [skill]Conjure Frost[/skill] and it's bretheren.

I agree with you, but I don't see much availability to place them in compared to just being straight up good and finding peaks in where they can't have as much defence as before.

twicky_kid · Sep 19, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Replace bull's strike with Griffons.

Bull strike is way too conditional now. You have to hit, must be moving, if it misses you don't deal any +dmg.

Griffons/Leviathan is a win win situation. If you hit you deal +dmg. If you're blocked it KD. Faster recharge than bull's strike.

Thomas.knbk · Sep 19, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Replace bull's strike with Griffons.

People actually run warriors without Bull's Strike?

what the hell. time to find a new game.

Vanquisher · Sep 19, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Eviscerate / Executioner's / Agonizing / Guiding Hands / Rend Touch / Frenzy / Rush / Res

Agonizing=! / Bull's / Disrupting

Or drop Res if you can fit elsewhere.

Alternatively, /A

Eviscerate / Executioner's / Agonizing / D-Dagger / Way of the Fox / Frenzy / Rush / Res

Shmanka · Sep 19, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Bull strike is way too conditional now. You have to hit, must be moving, if it misses you don't deal any +dmg.

If you fail at hitting a target with Bull's Strike, I am going to say this right now: You are absolutely horrible. There is no two-ways about this.

twicky_kid · Sep 19, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

If you fail at hitting a target with Bull's Strike, I am going to say this right now: You are absolutely horrible. There is no two-ways about this.

Its not that you can't time it to hit a moving target. Its the fact that you have to go through 3 layers of block def while the target is moving. If you don't KD you get no dmg.

With griffins you deal dmg unconditional. If blocked you KD and still deal some dmg. With a faster recharge than bull strike I don't know what's not to like. Right with Block Wars it really shines.

Vanquisher · Sep 19, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

If you fail at hitting a target with Bull's Strike, I am going to say this right now: You are absolutely horrible. There is no two-ways about this.

Hi, some people can press Escape.

Shmanka · Sep 20, 2007, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Its not that you can't time it to hit a moving target. Its the fact that you have to go through 3 layers of block def while the target is moving. If you don't KD you get no dmg.

So we should replace all skills like eviscerate with your anti block attacks?