Curse

Phades · Sep 15, 2007, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

take CS for example. how many different viable weapon combinations can you really use? 3? and how fun is the game to watch and play? very, given the amount of tournament and TV/podcast coverage it receives.

You will have a point when you begin aiming everything and skills arent locked into time units and then when you hit someone in a specific location you trigger effects like the distracting shot skill or pin down. While basic movement techniques and the ability to read intent in motion would equate out to things like warriors cunning and distortion. This is going beyond the whole class thing, locked possibilities etc which would be more in line with say team fortress for instance. But then again, i find CS rather booring compared to say Tribes 1&2 where things like acceleration, positioning, manner of how x tool used for problem y occured, lead, and altitude control were more important than the placement of the hit scan object over which pixle of the character model was struck. /shrug

Then again, it is rather difficult to compare a fuild environment (tribes) versus a static one after the match starts (most "real" damage fps). Of course commonly played objectives tended to be different as well only further seperating the gap, but i am sure you understand where this is going by now.

Zuranthium · Sep 15, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

GW, in order to remain/become a true competitive game, needs to reduce the amount the skills used, and reduce the amounts of viable builds. anything else will just lead to buildwars.

It will only lead to buildwars if skills create the kind of environment where enough broad counters are not available for a certain build and you need to instead make a specific counter-build. That's where balance comes in.

Having more viable skills is not just about creating entirely new templates but also diversifying standard individual templates (geh, I'm having to repeat myself now). For example - Hammer Warriors. Look at Devastating Hammer vs. Earthshaker vs. Backbreaker. These Warrior builds basically have the same function but they have balanced differences which make them all useful and in the end it comes down to which one is going to be most attuned to the team's needs and the player's own preference. Providing as many choices as possible for a character arch-type to reach the same general goal is a very good thing.

Any team build can be defined by how well they achieve 4 categories which are summarized roughly as: spike - being able to kill someone instantly or at least quickly and in such a way that the target will not have a good chance of being saved, pressure - being able to deal more damage over time than the opposing defense can prevent and/or being able to keep many health bars constantly dropping so that confusion is created and people become prone to smaller spikes, split - how effective is your build be when all 8 players are not together, defense - how well are you able to counteract the opposing offense.

If skills are balanced such that it doesn't create teams whom are overpowered when looking at the combined ability of how well that team can perform each function, wide-range balance with a thousand viable skills is possible and it just comes down to how you go about it - the flavors that are used to define your guild and yourself as a player. People were mad at hexes, for example, because of the combined amount of pressure and defense which they afforded in comparison to what a balanced build should be.

Paragons are currently overpowered because of the combined amount of spike-potential, pressure, and defense that they provide to a team. Wearying Strike is overpowered because of the combined spike and pressure power that it holds. Ward Against Melee and Aegis are overpowered because of how well they counteract offense for their cost.

~Z

moriz · Sep 15, 2007, 07:55 PM // 19:55

and how effective have we been at "creating variety while maintaining balance"? for whatever reasons, the GW dev team have been incapable of creating such an environment, and all their efforts have pushed the game further and further out of wack.

i will be writing a full post about this later, but my idea is this: create a collective deck of skills (about 300-350 skills total), that are the allowed skills used in gvg. all other forms of pvp can use whatever skills they want, but gvg can only use skills from that deck. this way, we can easily eliminate passive defense, overpowered gimmicks, and what have you, by simply editing the skills in the deck. at the end of a 2 week period, we reevaluate the deck to see if we can change the skills available based on what's happening.

300-350 skills is more than enough to allow for a fun metagame.

DreamWind · Sep 15, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

I've played for over 10 years. In T2 there will only be 1-2decks that will simply beat everything it comes across. Just about every player will be running it. You can talk about different formats all day long but when it comes to T2 its copy paste. Now the better player will win of course because that's the nature of the game.

The same in GW. The bad skills have been weeded out a long time ago. Combine that with the long periods of time between skill changes and you have our current "stale" meta. Once the skill changes happen people will remove the 1-2 skills from their bars that are no long usable and continue to run the strategy with a slightly different bar.

I've been playing for 10 years too and I don't know what you are talking about. Whenever there is a clearly overpowered build, it gets instabanned, and the last time that happened was 3 years ago.

Your point about bad skills being weeded out is interesting. I find it more along the lines of new TOO good skills (and classes) being introduced. It would be like Wizards of the Coast releasing a card set once a year, and each set is progressively more broken so that the previous sets aren't used anymore. Broken game!! afdsfsf

Zuranthium · Sep 15, 2007, 10:55 PM // 22:55

There are definitely more than 1-2 decks that are generally at the top in MTG. But that really isn't relevant because in MTG they can only Ban or Restrict cards. In an Online game, YOU HAVE THE ABILITY to continually change things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i will be writing a full post about this later, but my idea is this: create a collective deck of skills (about 300-350 skills total), that are the allowed skills used in gvg.

No, I really don't think we need any more Wintergreen seasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

all other forms of pvp can use whatever skills they want, but gvg can only use skills from that deck. this way, we can easily eliminate passive defense, overpowered gimmicks, and what have you, by simply editing the skills in the deck. at the end of a 2 week period, we reevaluate the deck to see if we can change the skills available based on what's happening.

Uhh, instead of sweeping the "overpowered gimmicks" aside, you could simply FIX them? That seriously wouldn't take up more of their time than going through every single skill in the game and coming up with a list of 300 or so to allow.

If you put those skills into a vacuum you're losing important information about how they interact with other skills. If they are really going to do a skill update every 2 weeks (we can dream), 50 skills should just be tweaked every update. 2 weeks later, the skills that still need work can be tweaked further and skills that are deemed to now be balanced for competitive PvP play can be replaced with a new set of skills to receive their first round of tweaking.

~Z

twicky_kid · Sep 15, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

No, I really don't think we need any more Wintergreen seasons.

Actually we do. That was one of the best seasons. Restricting skills that can be used is what creates competition and diversity. Take 2 guilds and let them run a mirror match. The better players will win. Because you can change at any time what skills can be used during each AT it would create a lot of diversity and unique builds. Instead we have the same old crap for months until skill changes come. Then only 1-2 skills on the bar will be replaced and the same tactics will be used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Uhh, instead of sweeping the "overpowered gimmicks" aside, you could simply FIX them? That seriously wouldn't take up more of their time than going through every single skill in the game and coming up with a list of 300 or so to allow.

You don't have to. You can always have prophecy and core skills with ONLY factions or NF skills for the AT that week. Then next week change it up. The simple fact that some game mechanics are better than others (deep wound, spirits, ect...) will always creep into the game no matter what you do. Especially now that no more skills or mechanics will be added.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

If you put those skills into a vacuum you're losing important information about how they interact with other skills. If they are really going to do a skill update every 2 weeks (we can dream), 50 skills should just be tweaked every update. 2 weeks later, the skills that still need work can be tweaked further and skills that are deemed to now be balanced for competitive PvP play can be replaced with a new set of skills to receive their first round of tweaking.

You say making a list would be taking up a lot of time hell try play testing every single skill change that is considered. They would be lucky if they got done 10-20 skills a week with good feedback on the changes. Then get it incorporated into the game without causing massive bugs and exploits. On top of that trying to fix more past mistakes while more changes are coming. The fact is GW cannot update the game as fast as they had hoped. It would cause so many problems with the game it would be called BugWars.

Zuranthium · Sep 16, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

They don't have to test changes; let the players do that. If something is too powerful or still not useful enough you keep tweaking until a good spot has been reached.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Restricting skills that can be used is what creates competition and diversity.

Diversity? Certainly not.

Competition, perhaps. It would be pretty cool to see guilds have to fight each other with the exact same build. These kinds of things should only happen sporadically, though. It really shouldn't be a regular occurrence.

~Z

twicky_kid · Sep 16, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

They don't have to test changes; let the players do that. If something is too powerful or still not useful enough you keep tweaking until a good spot has been reached.

They do that now its called Beta testing. Many pvp players are no long a part of it because of the criticism Anet has gotten from their testers. I don't know if Ensign is still apart of it I'll let him speak for himself. JR left a very long time along with a ton of other top pvpers from all formats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Diversity? Certainly not.

When you cannot use the same skills and builds every single week it will be very diverse. Builds would be changing all the time. That can be done easily with the skill restrictions based on chapters from week to week.

Greedy Gus · Sep 16, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

You're referring to alpha testing, which anet removed early this year.

ockhams · Sep 16, 2007, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Actually we do. That was one of the best seasons. Restricting skills that can be used is what creates competition and diversity. Take 2 guilds and let them run a mirror match. The better players will win. Because you can change at any time what skills can be used during each AT it would create a lot of diversity and unique builds. Instead we have the same old crap for months until skill changes come. Then only 1-2 skills on the bar will be replaced and the same tactics will be used.

You don't have to. You can always have prophecy and core skills with ONLY factions or NF skills for the AT that week. Then next week change it up. The simple fact that some game mechanics are better than others (deep wound, spirits, ect...) will always creep into the game no matter what you do. Especially now that no more skills or mechanics will be added.

You say making a list would be taking up a lot of time hell try play testing every single skill change that is considered. They would be lucky if they got done 10-20 skills a week with good feedback on the changes. Then get it incorporated into the game without causing massive bugs and exploits. On top of that trying to fix more past mistakes while more changes are coming. The fact is GW cannot update the game as fast as they had hoped. It would cause so many problems with the game it would be called BugWars.

sounds like you might be endorsing a similar idea to my suggestion... what do you think?

you may have voiced my opinion better. you be the judge. i share your opinion that switching 'allowable skill sets' frequently would switch up the metagame, at least for a week or two.

i honestly think the current skills are mostly balanced (maybe a few tweaks here and there, but prolly not what most of you are thinking). there are some basic mechanics that should be the holy grail of skill performance (i.e. cost/recharge/benefit) and some skills will do well to be tweaked... anyway, limiting the skill sets every other week or so, at least in the automated tournaments, would encourage new skill bars... maybe similar skills across different campaigns but, new skill bars none the less. and that would (at least in the short term) create more diversity and more exciting combos to observe/copy.

gw sux lately.

RhanoctJocosa · Sep 16, 2007, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Lack of veteran players and guilds, imho. I'm pretty sure watching EvIL vs. WM both playing the stuff we see now would still be great fun to watch.

Vanquisher · Sep 16, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

The best seasons were the Factions seasons. After them the game has been going downhill.

To anyone saying the game is balanced;

Block
Block
Block
-24
Block
Block
Block
Block
-36
Miss
Block
Block

ockhams · Sep 16, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

if the blocking is so powerful, maybe you could consider some of the individual attack skills that are un-blockable; or any of the "attacks cannot be blocked" stances, enchants, etc; or possibly even defile defenses or any of the skills that trigger on blocks.

if it's something you're certain you're going to be facing in the current state of the game, you could make provision for it. there are some possible creative answers that would make for some interesting battles and would negate the effectiveness of SoD, guardian, aegis, ward against melee, etc as a counter rather than trying to stop it up front. any idea why these skills aren't used more if it's such a problem?

Vanquisher · Sep 16, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

This game should not be about "you have to run x"
Defile Defenses is nice but when you'd be DW'ing and only tick around 100 damage, it's nothing comparable.
Irresistable Blow got demolished because of thumpers and costs energy hammer warriors barely have.
Other cannot be blocked things are terrible.

just call me jimmy · Sep 16, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

My Idea is completely remove Paragons, Dervishes and Ritualists from all GVG.
These three characters in my opinion have just completely destroyed all forms of PVP (in both a primary and secondary rolls). I know this will never happen, but felt it had to be said.

Anet to be fair, had allot to deal with such a diverse amount of skills and player base. But to be honest they have made some brutal mistakes, and never had the ..... to say "yep we screwed up big time" Instead they make changes to the changes making it worse and worse.

I know some of you may disagree with me, but I truly believe that the more builds you have in a pool that can be used 1. makes the game interesting and matches fun to watch. 2. Controls how much damage a broken overpowered build can do. Remember, Obs Spike, Ranger Spike, Necro spike, pure balanced, Thumpers, they were in full force until after the Factions championship. Sure if you went into the match without a shields up or a cry of frustration (two skills of the top of my head, you would probably get rolled. But if you used the right tactics and had some of the right counter skills you could easily win or at least make a good match out of it) As it stands now you have very few viable builds that allows for greater exploitation of gimmick builds. You have 18 min matches, which severely inhibits tactical play. Making observer mode worse than watching paint dry!!!!!

Well that's my rant

ockhams · Sep 16, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Defile Defenses is nice but when you'd be DW'ing and only tick around 100 damage, it's nothing comparable.

well, so maybe throw in Swift Chop somehow.

Zui · Sep 16, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Good idea, ockhams! You'll take Swift Chop, and when someone is blocking you almost every swing, you will Swift Chop them and cause deep wound + 19 damage! That's like 119 damage! That will surely make the target die!!

Or, you could not take swift chop and instead take a skill that makes things die... Hmm... Offensive skill that doesn't kill people vs other skill that actually does something... Hmm... Hard call... Hmm... Well, I'm stumped. I mean really, I can't decide between a skill that does something useful versus a skill that does something that sucks. Hmm... Or maybe I'm being really sarcastic... Hmm... Who knows?

Lord Natural · Sep 16, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Yeah, unfortunately game balance inversely effects the entertainment value of obs mode. The exception might be when 2 of the top guilds face off, or the maybe the monthly finals, but even so, it's rare I see an obs match in the list that I genuinely want to watch now. We're long past the days of watching the koreans using map control to win matches, or watching the former top guilds face off against some of the old ridiculously overpowered fotm's. imo they need to make an obs mode history channel and dig up some of these old matches, so that we actually have something amusing to watch. WM vs LuM anyone?

ockhams · Sep 16, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by zui

Good idea, ockhams! You'll take Swift Chop, and when someone is blocking you almost every swing, you will Swift Chop them and cause deep wound + 19 damage! That's like 119 damage! That will surely make the target die!!

the complaint was things aren't balanced becuz you can't deal dmg on a team that blocks everything. consider an eviscerate/agonizing/executioner bar. you deal something like 60+DW, 50, & 70 if they don't block. but chances are they are going to have some sort of block skill on them.

i'm not suggesting you drop all the other skills either. if you kept all those skills and ran swift chop on that same bar (while someone else uses defile defenses) you deal 20+DW & 100+ dmg if they do happen to be blocking.

i'm just suggesting it might be one of the ways to counter the current meta. get off my nuts.

Symbol · Sep 16, 2007, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Exactly what are you going to drop so you can run swift chop (lol)?

Though I don't think it's _that_ bad. Defile defenses is a decent answer to block...if it triggers on a DW skill you've lost damage, but if it triggers on anything else you've actually come out ahead.