Curse

Servant of Kali · Sep 14, 2007, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Everyone is using exactly same builds with exactly same skills. I haven't seen new skill used in GvG Obs in months... oh wait, I did see once a mesmer running Glyph of Renewal instead of MoR. I almost had an orgasm. There is no metagame anymore, and while I will agree the game is more balanced than when Nightfall game out (cough), it's dead boring. When Nightfall came out it was imbalanced dead boring watching SF eles etc, but now it's just dead boring.

Haven't checked Hero Battles, is it still Assassin vs Assassin?

Paddatoochie · Sep 14, 2007, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Yeah pretty much, with some variation of R/P's and Rt/N's and D/P's and Dunk on SoR.

twicky_kid · Sep 14, 2007, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Everyone is using exactly same builds with exactly same skills. There is no metagame anymore

That is a meta. Just like MTG only 1-2 decks will be seen at the top and just about everyone will run them. Meta games are never very diverse.

The reason new skills are not being seen is:

1) No skill balance in a few months
2) Players know what works and what doesn't the time for experimenting has been over with for a very long time.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 14, 2007, 12:51 PM // 12:51

There's 2 reasons the metagame is so 'stale' at the moment.

1) Paragons, these things provided a strong offense (DPS comparable to warriors) with strong partywide static defense (Watch Yourself, Shields Up, Defensive Anthem etc.)

2) Abundance of passive and active defense (Almost every build has at least several of these: Aegis, Defensive Anthem, Shields Up, Ward Against Melee, Blinding Surge, Shield of Deflection, Shield of Regeneration, Weapon of Warding.)

The second issue can't really be fixed without fixing the first because without the defense paragons would be even more ridiculous.

The counter to paragons at the moment is bringing a paragon yourself, this of course doesn't reward running builds that deviate from the 'standard' build.

Paragons at the moment are simply ridiculous, they aren't restricted by energy and couple strong offense with strong defense, this could in my opinion be fixed quite easily by nerfing a few skills that are staple in any paragon build at the moment:

Aggressive Refrain: First and foremost, permanent increased attack rate that's basically free (since you put it up once and never have to reapply it unless you die, and let's be honest, when's the last time you've seen a paragon die?) This boosts your adrenaline gain by 25% without a drawback.

Fix: This has been suggested several times and Izzy even stated that he liked the idea (why hasn't this been changed yet??) -20 Armor while attacking OR just -10 Armor.

"Watch Yourself!": This one isn't THAT much of an issue, but I think it's a little too spammable at 4 adrenaline and has quite a strong effect for such a low cost.

Fix: Change cost to 5 or 6 adrenaline.

"Shields Up!": This skill has to be strong right now as it's one of the only skills that really keeps paragons in check, unfortunately it's also most commonly run on a paragon (vicious cycle

) I think the main issue with this is that it's too effective vs ranger interrupts and archers at VoD (with 18 min VoD this skill is a no-brainer really)

Fix: Changing the energy on this wouldn't do anything but make it even harder to run on warriors so I suggest either making it last shorter or giving it an activation time (1 second will probably be enough)

Once paragons get toned down stuff like Shield Of Deflection can be hit with the nerfstick and hopefully the metagame will be less defensive, untill this happens I doubt anything will change anytime soon.

Byron · Sep 14, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Simply put, there are too many effective passive defensive options to not take them. Most of a balanced vs. balanced game thus relies on interrupting the passive stuff.

But I'm confident more aggressive builds will come soon, but folk are too conservative atm to break out of the bsurge shell. We need more iGi/cow type guilds imo.

Symbol · Sep 14, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

iQ was running a pretty cool super offense build a few nights back...don't know if they're still using it.

Dual melandru's, mind blaster with RI, immolate, freezing gust and blurred, a necro with defile defenses, and 1 or 2 other hexers. It exploded teams fast.

Zuranthium · Sep 14, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Aggressive Refrain: First and foremost, permanent increased attack rate that's basically free (since you put it up once and never have to reapply it unless you die, and let's be honest, when's the last time you've seen a paragon die?) This boosts your adrenaline gain by 25% without a drawback.

Fix: This has been suggested several times and Izzy even stated that he liked the idea (why hasn't this been changed yet??) -20 Armor while attacking OR just -10 Armor.

Actually, 25% IAS = attacking 33% faster.

Aggressive Refrain is definitely overpowered and I want to see the -20AL while attacking get put in.

WY!/GFTE! are too good as energy engines as well and should be 6 adren (with the actual effect on GFTE being increased so that it's still a solid ability by itself).

~Z

Thomas.knbk · Sep 14, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Be Team is one of the more entertaining teams to watch because of this.

Riotgear · Sep 14, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Just throwing an idea out there:

Would it be a good idea to only allow one active shout/chant at a time?

Vanquisher · Sep 14, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

No.

Shouts should be nerfed so that they are just pretty unusable, in order to gradually tweak them to not be absolutely ridiculously overpowered things.

DutchSmurf · Sep 14, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Everyone is using exactly same builds with exactly same skills.

Didn't this happen just before Factions came out too? And isn't 90% of the people on this forum wanting to go back to that time? Even the builds aren't that much different. Some skills (most of all defensive ones) got replaced by better versions and most of the current monks probably don't even have a negative energy set anymore. But for the rest it is just the same. And just as boring.

Zuranthium · Sep 14, 2007, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Limiting shouts/chants/echoes to 2 per type per person would be good. Any kind of unremovable game mechanic that you can target other people with needs to have a limiting effect (aside from being sucky; that's a bad suggestion). WY!/GFTE! are the only shouts that need to be nerfed and that's simply because they give Paragons too much energy. There are a great deal of Paragon abilities that could be improved but if they were all really good, you'd just see everyone taking dual Paragons and loading up on the abilities since there is no way to counter them.

Nor should there be a way to remove shouts/shouts/echoes; hard counters should only exist for wide-ranging game mechanics...Conditions, Hexes, Enchants...otherwise it becomes too much of a R/P/S scenario. Skills like Vocal Minority, Roaring Winds, Soothing, and Scourge Sacrifice are poorly conceived and need to be modified because the effect is so limited. The idea behind something like Ulcerous Lungs is just fine because it has an actual effect that could be worthwhile for your team build even if you don't come upon any opponents who use a shout/chant.

~Z

Servant of Kali · Sep 14, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

To everyone who understands at least a bit how classes should be designed, not only in GW, Paragon is an academic example of a failure. I have no idea how that class passed beta testing; my guess is that Izzy was too lazy balancing skills and professions and too busy balancing what Mandragors in PvE use. Seriously, let's see.. primary attribute is completely flawed, it defies game design in the first place, and as second it's something like Soul Reaping for necros in PvE (before nerf). As second, a huge majority of paragon skills have no counter (no, Vocal Minority is too much of a minority to count), which is an obvious design flaw. Also, all those skills which get stronger and are worth taking only with more paragons in the same team, or more of type "X" are bad for the game. It either forces various gimmicks in which these skills are overpowered, or on a stand-alone Paragon they outright suck. In other words, design flaw.

It really doesn't matter, no one cares, everyone is preparing for GW2, and when they make it there's always GW3 to fix mistakes. I don't expect games to be perfect, but i see zillion of updates with irrelevant PvE stuff being fixed or tweaked, and critical stuff is being left out. Absolutely incredible.

And now with Gwen we have 100 new skills of which 33% of them are obviously designed only for PvE, and there are also PvE-only skills. Now, of these 66% of skills which can be usable in PvP, good thing is that none of them is blatantly overpowered to see the game (Nightfall syndrome cough), and bad thing is that - no one plays them. Can't really say I heard people use em, maybe Cure Hex that's all. Let's be honest, skills need to be unique. They need to do something others dont. They need to be better in situation X than skill Y and still be worth taking overall. There are too many skills in the game which are too similiar and generic. The reason why metagame is so stale and everyone is running the same skills, is because those skills do the job, and other skills are just bad copies. Enchanter's Conundrum for instance - why would you take this over Migraine? Why would anyone take Visions of Regret over non-elite Empathy?

That being said, I don't believe there is any "skill balance" in GW, there hasn't been one since the beginning. What skill balance means to *me* is taking a good look at the game skill pool, tweaking the obviously useless skills (Protective Bond, Lyssa's Aura..) and giving them some stats which actually make them viable skills. Then, look at underpowered and overpowered skills and bring them to the midline as much as possible. From time to time an unintended skill will prove to be overpowered, no problem, and some will remain underpowered, no problem. Also, skills wouldn't be always buffed by increasing dmg, but in various ways (giving some utility for instance). Now, that's skill balance. What skill balance is not, is when you take 5 random skills per month, change stats a lil bit, and then do nothing for a month. In the meantime, metagame stays bored and everyone uses the same skills because no one in their right mind will use Lyssa's Aura. Skills like these simply AINT designed to be used, they were designed as "design and forget" skills so they fill new-expansion skill quota.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

The reason new skills are not being seen is:

1) No skill balance in a few months
2) Players know what works and what doesn't the time for experimenting has been over with for a very long time.

I don't buy that. What you said indicated that a metagame is bad, as well as skill balance. If everyone is running the same build -and- no one is running a counter to that build which also works in general... then that is bad. In other words, if no one is adapting then we can as well play chess. Metagame needs to be fluent, it needs to shift around even when skills are balanced. If I know exactly what my opponent will bring, to the last detail, and I have no advantage of that knowledge, then that is IMO a bad metagame. Yes, that means build should mean for something, but it shouldn't be all about the build either.

Greedy Gus · Sep 14, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

You have no interesting insight into profession & skill balance or metagame. Your rant about paragons is just regurgitated from 5+ months ago, and not even very relevant now. We get it, you're the kind of player who wants underpowered/underused skills buffed because it's more interesting to you.

EotN was the best addition to GW PvP yet. The reason? It barely affected it. It's just more new skill names for people who want to see unique stuff like lyssas balance used.

The metagame is always changing, even right now. It just takes time. If you want more fast paced day-to-day largescale changing based on countering what's popular, you want rock/paper/scissors, and we understand why you don't want to play chess where the better player wins.

Riotgear · Sep 14, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

What skill balance means to *me* is taking a good look at the game skill pool, tweaking the obviously useless skills (Protective Bond, Lyssa's Aura..) and giving them some stats which actually make them viable skills.

That's kind of akin to the severely-flawed "everything must be viable" mentality which assumes that every skill has a place in a well-made strategic game.

A better approach to skill balance is "are there enough ways to deal with <blah>? Are there enough tools available for people who prefer builds oriented around <blah>?"

Of course, <blah> needs some legitimacy, but it's a better approach than just forcing things into viability. For example, has anyone said "damn, this game would be so much better with a maintained enchantment that made someone almost unkillable" or "damn, this game would be so much better if I had a decent elite that made people lose energy when they cast spells on me."

Some skills are just too brainless (Grenth) or too quirky (Augury of Death, Discord) to really be made viable. What's more viable is taking a step back, asking why old templates that used to work don't work any more, and trying to revitalize them.

Shmanka · Sep 14, 2007, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Everyone is using exactly same builds with exactly same skills. I haven't seen new skill used in GvG Obs in months... oh wait, I did see once a mesmer running Glyph of Renewal instead of MoR. I almost had an orgasm. There is no metagame anymore, and while I will agree the game is more balanced than when Nightfall game out (cough), it's dead boring. When Nightfall came out it was imbalanced dead boring watching SF eles etc, but now it's just dead boring.

Haven't checked Hero Battles, is it still Assassin vs Assassin?

As was mentioned previously, it is stale due to the fact people have realized that somethings are just purely mathematically better then others.
EX Ranged Warriors + Aegis= Paragon.

The solution from my perspective still is not to nerf these things... but make some other combinations viable. like the many useless skills.. slippery ground?

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

That is a meta. Just like MTG only 1-2 decks will be seen at the top and just about everyone will run them. Meta games are never very diverse.

.. you've never played MTG, 1-2 decks CAN rule but top 10's for the past 4 years have had 3-7 at record of different based decklists in multiple formats.

Zuranthium · Sep 15, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

That's kind of akin to the severely-flawed "everything must be viable" mentality which assumes that every skill has a place in a well-made strategic game.

Every single unit in Starcraft has a viable use and the game was able to allow people to wield cool sci-fi abilities in a balanced manner. With Guildwars, it's just fantasy instead of sci-fi. (and, yes, I know the mechanics of the games differ somewhat but even still...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Some skills are just too brainless (Grenth) or too quirky (Augury of Death, Discord) to really be made viable. What's more viable is taking a step back, asking why old templates that used to work don't work any more, and trying to revitalize them.

Augury of Death has seen play in good, non-overpowered (and non Hero-ized) GvG builds. Both caster spike and split teams.

Anyway, I believe it's bad to only look into the past/present? Not only because creating entirely new ideas/templates adds a fresh element to the game (if people had never done this, I'm quite sure some of the characters you like would have never existed) but also because adding more choices to current templates allows for individual personality, style, and preference to have more definition.

~Z

moriz · Sep 15, 2007, 04:36 AM // 04:36

starcraft has a static number of abilities and units. there are some good strategies involved, yes, but there aren't a lot of them.

what people must realize is that GW does not need more "possibilities". it needs less. having less skills/builds does make for boring builds, but more skill-based gameplay. take CS for example. how many different viable weapon combinations can you really use? 3? and how fun is the game to watch and play? very, given the amount of tournament and TV/podcast coverage it receives.

GW, in order to remain/become a true competitive game, needs to reduce the amount the skills used, and reduce the amounts of viable builds. anything else will just lead to buildwars.

twicky_kid · Sep 15, 2007, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

.. you've never played MTG, 1-2 decks CAN rule but top 10's for the past 4 years have had 3-7 at record of different based decklists in multiple formats.

I've played for over 10 years. In T2 there will only be 1-2 decks that will simply beat everything it comes across. Just about every player will be running it. You can talk about different formats all day long but when it comes to T2 its copy paste. Now the better player will win of course because that's the nature of the game.

The same in GW. The bad skills have been weeded out a long time ago. Combine that with the long periods of time between skill changes and you have our current "stale" meta. Once the skill changes happen people will remove the 1-2 skills from their bars that are no long usable and continue to run the strategy with a slightly different bar.

Winstar · Sep 15, 2007, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Having variety isn't necssarily a bad thing if there are checks in place to limit the paper rock scissors effect. In Magic, in order to help limit the "I got paired against X I guess I lose" effect, matches are best 2 of 3 and you have a sideboard. After match 1 you can draw on cards that allow you to tweak your deck to matchup more favorably against your opponent. GW doesn't have such a thing since in most cases you play your opponent once and its over. Having a variety of builds can make things interesting, but to make it work I would love to see something in place that makes it possible to do something that has the same effect as sideboarding in GW2, although ideally more effective.