Curse

pah01 · Oct 13, 2007, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Dear ALL, (esp Mods)

This isnt a flame to the forum or any other forum even though there is one(GWONLINE LOL) that is really deserving of one.

I think that the general level of posting has gone down here.

I think that there are a bunch of valid reasons for this.

1. Arenanet have raped the game.
2. The game is old.
3. No point in repeating stuff.
4. Arenenet dont listen most of the time/or are very stupid/have some obscure reason why they want the game to be shit -- See most recent updates.
5. Competitive play is bad/ats suck/ no more world championships to keep interest alive.

The last real gem[I say gem because it contained things that I didnt know] posted even by Ensign was his post about why ritualists were at base very gimmicky. I've got the link if anyone wants it. Even his most recent post about balance in general basically rehashed a bunch of things that most people already know.

The other issue on the forum is idiots infesting certain threads that the devs are reading. Well they(the devs) are according to Andrew Patrick.

I think that these two issues require the introduction of two things beneficial to new players and beneficial to the developers.

1. A creating of a guide section that contains the articles that have been written on pvp that are necessary for introducing new players to the game. Things like equipment/dealing with energy denial/interrupts/balanced builds/how to play against spikes/pressure and all of these kinds of things.

2. I get quite unhappy when an idiot posts in a thread started by Ensign. This requires a position in the forum called privileged user. Only privileged users can start threads that only allow other priviledged users to post in them.

This is to stop people telling other more advanced players of the game that if they have a problem with a skill go diversion or interrupt it.

Mr Emu · Oct 13, 2007, 08:59 AM // 08:59

I think we should just make up a big list of links to ensign's posts on balance and spam anet with it, that would fix all of our balance problems

Robster Lobster · Oct 13, 2007, 09:55 AM // 09:55

I just found out that you can now search through people's post history, so I've been going through all of Ensign's posts!

/fanboyism

EDIT: Don't want to derail the thread, I don't think the privileged poster thing is a great idea, even people new to the game can bring up interesting points, or ask questions that can then be explained to them improving the thread content. More strict moderation is a better idea, where silly posts are just deleted or even adding a feature to bury posts (a few sites have something like this, you can click on a link and it displays the post again, but the default is that you can't see it).

The guide section is a great idea though, I know there used to be a few really good guides on the iQ forums (although some may need to be updated), I wonder if anyone has backups of them?

moko · Oct 13, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Nurse and i are strict on a lot of posts -- but the problem is that some of them simply do not break any rules. as long as there's an actual opinion to why they think <useless skill x> is good and that <overpowered skill x> has 745358 counters and is easy to beat and whatnot, it's not up to deletion.

in high quality topics (for example Ensigns nerflist back then), i DID delete some out of my own biased point of view because it was just so important, but we can't really do it anymore by now.

the only option for us in order to do this is to either PM every user, asking them nicely to stop posting because they fail at the game (which would be utterly rude and time investing), OR the OP has to leave a note, or at least a wish, at the bottom of the thread to ask for quality replies & the deletion off those that still get through.

so far i havn't seen nor done any, so i can't do anything on the quality dropping here. i don't really want this to turn into an elitist area either, users are entitled to their opinion as long as it's reasoned properly -- even if it's a stupid one.

the problem is, with the existance off the official wiki, that there is a lose of interest in this anyways, and there's more lesser experienced people posting their suggestions on Izzys talkpage, and Andrew is browsing this less slowly also. (at least it seems like it, sorry if it's not the case Andrew).

and of course the points you listed are an important thing..but anyways, just trying to bring up our (mods, at least mine, but i think Nurse thinks similar) opinion regarding the quality.

pah01 · Oct 13, 2007, 11:17 AM // 11:17

I know that you guys are quick and you have even deleted some of my retarded posts, well they were probably flaming(except the one where I posted 8 monk builds that spiked - intentional fail) but what the heck.

I actually DARE Izzy/Andrew/Someone to read ensigns post next door and reply.

The other thing is I have loved this game and given over 3000+ hours not including a hell of a lot of forum browsing time to this game. It sickens me to see arenanet developers and skill balancers make me lose all respect for them.

I swear to God I could balance this game better than the devs. I mean their fail es expressed in Howard J FAIL posting builds on the main site that have melee without a deepwound on them. Then that fuc ker recomends the use of aura of fail for split teams.

This game has had so much potential to be the greatest game but anet have deviated from the path of competitve pvp again and again.

Joe

Nurse With Wound · Oct 13, 2007, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I think that the general level of posting has gone down here.

I agree. It has been a steady decline. The amount of idiotic and moronic stuff that pop up every day is scary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I think that there are a bunch of valid reasons for this.
1. Arenanet have raped the game.
2. The game is old.

We have lost many great posters simply because during the last year they have simply quit the game. The forum suffered as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

3. No point in repeating stuff.

Yeah, there are some things that have been discussed over and over again, and in some cases nothing else is there left to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

4. Arenenet dont listen most of the time/or are very stupid/have some obscure reason why they want the game to be shit -- See most recent updates.
5. Competitive play is bad/ats suck/ no more world championships to keep interest alive.

That is actually strictly tied to points 1 and 2 on your list. Mismanagement of PVP part of the game, has caused people to quit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

The other issue on the forum is idiots infesting certain threads that the devs are reading. Well they(the devs) are according to Andrew Patrick.

This is really a serious issue. There are a lot of completely clueless individuals posting utter trash in here. We are much more strict when it comes to moderating messages lacking content-wise than rest of the Guru forums, but we still have to obey the Guru forum rules. While its easy to hit the "delete" button, the shitstorm that some of those people make when we are deleting their " BUT U KILLD MY PARAGON. NO ONE WUNTZ TO TAKE ME TO 2 GROUPS NOW" styled messages is borderline crazy. So the line we have drawn back in the old times of Gladiator's Arena is that when user has a legitimate opinion, and can voice it properly, even if its wrong, and he is lacking knowledge, he is
entitled to voice it. Its up to other users to correct it, argue with it. We cannot moderate too much, we have the guru forum rules, and site admins above us.

On the other hand we have been very liberal in the past about users calling out the other users. To help you dealing with clueless posters or with some crazy individuals we will keep on upholding that rule. Even loosing it up even more. Maybe not to Team Quitter forum extend, but this part of guru is and will be even more liberal than the rest of forums. Don't be afraid to call out stupid poster , but please do call out his mistakes in reasoning as well.

However liberal does not mean 'post what you want', or tolerating posts that contain only insults and are flamebaits. There still will be quality control to an extend we are allowed by site rules, and agressive posts, that incite nothing more than violence and can cause the larger drama to erupt will still be dealt with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I think that these two issues require the introduction of two things beneficial to new players and beneficial to the developers.

1. A creating of a guide section that contains the articles that have been written on pvp that are necessary for introducing new players to the game. Things like equipment/dealing with energy denial/interrupts/balanced builds/how to play against spikes/pressure and all of these kinds of things.

We have been thinking about a place like that back in the day. I agree that there is such a need to create a subforum for guides. insightful threads. It will be created soon, most likely next week.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

2. I get quite unhappy when an idiot posts in a thread started by Ensign. This requires a position in the forum called privileged user. Only privileged users can start threads that only allow other priviledged users to post in them. This is to stop people telling other more advanced players of the game that if they have a problem with a skill go diversion or interrupt it

I share your pain, I really do, but sadly I think this is impossible due to Guru forum rules. Still our "quality rule" moderating is implemented stronger and to full extend in threads like this.

If you have any questions, proposals, and suggestions feel free to PM them to us. This thread will remain open, but for obvious reasons will be closely watched. Keep it civil and share your ideas.

Inde · Oct 13, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

I'll respond here, because this is a topic that has come up a lot lately in my discussion with a number of mods and forum users. In fact, I've been discussing this for the last 6 months in terms of quality posts/threads, community resources and tools, and knowledge of the game. It may not surprise some for me to tell you that this is the natural cycle of all MMOG's.

In the beginning of an MMOG, there are people dissecting, analyzing and debating skills, characters, builds, the economy, etc. You have a good number of people playing the game hard-core. Wanting to do equations to analyze every aspect of damage/armor/weapons, coming up with spreadsheets, tools, databases, and more. After about 2 years these hard core gamers start to wind down, move on, and find the next game to analyze and pick apart. You also have these long-timers sticking around who provide their occasional intense insight but no longer want to spend the time or effort to truly debate with all the influx of new people who are still learning/trying to pick up the game/and are classified as casual players.

Sadly, just as I'm sometimes accused of brining in mods because of the guild they are in (you'll notice a lot of moderators are from particular guilds but actually I don't even glance), like-minded people stick together. Those who want to give these tools, analyze damage, create spreadsheets are a particular kind of gamer. Just as you have those who role-play, or PvP, or PvE, or use GW as a chat tool... those willing to put in this effort, insight and work are a subset of players as well. You'll see this small minority of players who do, essentially, all the work for the community seem to leave together. And I have found that the community starts to notice this change at about the 2 year mark.

Applying to all players, as you start to lose interest in a game, which is natural, you also become overly critical of it as well. The longer you are involved and the more you know, the more vocal you become. Of the community, the game, the developers, the publisher and others as the thrill and the enjoyment wane. It's not even because the game has gone "downhill" as so many claim. It's just because the newness has worn off, some of your good friends have quit or moved on, and you are now seeing all its flaws. (Kind of like a relationship ironically.)

Then posts start to pop up on all the game's forums about quality of posting going down, where have all the good players gone, and statements about the decline of the game. This is a natural cycle though. You'll see a small example of this as a mini-cycle in-between the Guild Wars chapters when people have outgrown the newness and now come back to the discussion arena to debate and point out the flaws.

Gladiator's Arena, in case some haven't noticed, is provided a lot more leniency then the other Guru forums. PvP players are a very vocal group and some smack talk is expected as it's the nature of the particular subset of players. As said above though, this doesn't mean you are allowed to just shoot your mouth off. And the idea of a privileged group of forum users allowed to post in a particular thread while others can't? Surely you can see the elitism and downright revolt on our "favoritism" that others would call us out on. Who makes the decision for what is a quality poster deserving of such a specialized forum group? A group vote? LOL.

I could ramble further in this post about quality over quantity and the predicament that all forums suffer. But to address another point, yes we can do a Guide section. I've discussed it with Nurse all ready and we'll get this up in the next few days (if not today).

Greedy Gus · Oct 13, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

It was actually a pleasant surprise when Squidget came back, and moderated a thread by cautioning at first and then following through with that warning. The topic went from another whine-fest to an interesting on-topic discussion. Whether or not I'm just missing where the other mods do that, it just feels like almost all the other moderation is simply locking threads or deleting extremely bad/offensive posts, not needing much discretion.

Inde · Oct 13, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25

I like how the point of lack of quality posts suddenly is misdirected into the moderating on this site. Greedy, I'll be the first to tell you that I do not read through every single post and wall of text that someone posts just to try and understand if they are actually contributing, or just babbling. The point of moderating is crowd control sadly, which entails closing or deleting out extremely offensive posts exactly as you detailed. Sometimes we can delve a bit deeper if the moderator has time, but when I have to delete out 20 posts of insults and flaming in a 3 page thread... no I stop reading at a certain point and just start scanning for the offensive. And I can't continue to return to every thread I give warnings in 4 times a day to see if they are indeed following those warnings when I'm monitoring 20 other threads at a time.

Also understand that after you do this for a while, and you get used to your particular forum and the frequent users, you can tell in the first few posts whether the thread is heading downhill because of a topic that has been debated and beaten to death or if it just might have a chance at surviving. We're wrong sometimes of course, and if you feel we are wrong send me a PM. I've reopened or explained the closing of a thread to many users.

I guess the point is that it's a fine line of opinion and some experience when we lock or choose to delete out posts. It's also a matter of time. When moderating a section you try to keep tabs on as many threads as you can. The forum user, on the other hand, just opens up the ones they are interested in. The moderator is expected to know the status of every open thread in their forum (which is impossible but we do try). Is it dying into flames? Did the user who had his post deleted come back and remake the same post in a thread? Is one particular thread going too far off-topic? Is one thread having the same troll continually posting flamebait?

And shame on me for derailing a thread.

Hopefully it brings some perspective. But if you ever feel that a thread can be salvaged with just a bit more attention from a moderator contact me and I'll be sure to look at it.

Greedy Gus · Oct 13, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Hmm, I didn't mean to insinuate that any problems were due to poor moderation like the OP may have. I think that the standard locking & deletion of bad posts & topics is entirely necessary, "crowd control" as you put it. However, while that type of moderation is definitely necessary, I was just trying to say that those are relatively easy decisions. When a mod is drawing more upon personal experience, discretion, and vision (for lack of a better term) for moderation decisions, that's when the forum area really becomes more enjoyable to visit & interesting to read topics in.

If I had any issues with the current state of things, I'd say that dissenting opinions on topics are given almost too much freedom at times. The fact that an argument is taking place often gives the false illusion (to people who may not be familiar with the experience of the posters) that there is actually a controversy on the subject, when in reality it's just people who have no idea about what they're talking about interjecting themselves into other more interesting discussions. The board gets dragged down by constantly combatting & trying to educate these posters, and you end up with a bunch of uninteresting topics with inane back & forth content.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 13, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

There's nothing inherently wrong with a poor player posting in an interesting thread. That player might be looking for advice, or clarifying a point they're unclear on, or any number of other perfectly valid reasons that don't hurt the discussion.

The problems arise when players use balance threads as a place to air their general greivances ("GW sux and GW2 needs the following things to survive!"), or when a newbie posts misinformation and keeps defending it in an effort to get the last word.

The latter is what most often causes good balance discussions to degenerate. A bad player posts something wrong, others rush in to say that they're wrong, and the bad player gets into a quote-war with everyone trying to back up his misinformed position. In that situation, I usually respond with a simple "Don't post in this thread anymore" to the bad player in question, then delete any future posts he makes.

I think the main thing missing between now and when JR and I moderated this forum is active direction from the moderators. A lot of bad posts get deleted from this forum, every single day, but the mods don't often explain why the posts were deleted or direct the discussion somewhere positive. Being a moderator isn't just about deleting or editing poor content, it's about directing the discussion somewhere positive. What you say in your posts is just as important as what you delete from others.

In short, you can't just 'discourage crap' and expect to have a good discussion. You need to promote quality as well.

erk · Oct 13, 2007, 11:10 PM // 23:10

There is also an age drift in the game as it creeps towards the 14 year old fame farmer style of play. The analytical people who are prepared to write about the game in interesting detail are often older and tend to get bored/frustrated by the ill thought out comments of socially inexperienced younger players, so they move on, either not bothering to contribute to the forums, or on to the next greatest game to write about.

pah01 · Oct 14, 2007, 06:40 AM // 06:40

I hadnt meant to insinuate that the moderation here in glad arena was poor Gus.

Its like this guy Erk posting he doesnt agree with ensigns assertion which is accepted by every top level player I know that you kill things with warriors/melee. Why was he posting such crap? Who knows One would expect a guy here a year to have read ensigns epic thread.

Joe

glountz · Oct 14, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I hadnt meant to insinuate that the moderation here in glad arena was poor Gus.

Its like this guy Erk posting he doesnt agree with ensigns assertion which is accepted by every top level player I know that you kill things with warriors/melee. Why was he posting such crap? Who knows One would expect a guy here a year to have read ensigns epic thread.

Joe

Yeah but sometimes I don't understand you top PvP players.
Ensign seems to be worried about physicals being too overpowered, in short, being the only viable mean of offense.
When Devs try to switch to other means of offense, PvP players cry for nerfs.
I'm particularly refering to the Hex metagame. It was an alternate way to have good offense, and BTW very good at shutting down said overpowered physicals. Every PvPer around here then asked for Hex nerf (and now hexes suck again), whereas the hex boost was answering the primary concern of somany PvPers: to much focus on physicals.
Let's say A-Net cut recharge and energy cost on ele spells, while lowering a bit their damage so they have DPS, and so offense based on eles would be viable, wouldn't you say also this isn't balanced?

kvndoom · Oct 14, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

A hex meta would have been fine, were there enough viable counters for hexes. But there's not enough removal to counter the overload you'll encounter when facing hexway. Divert is okay, but the energy cost and the fact that it does nothing at all if there are no hexes kills it. I had made a suggestion about buffing Expel, but I know it's nowhere on Izzy's radar so I won't hold my breath. Some good suggestions about a BLight buff got ignored too, no surprise there. Unlike Divert, Blight still has a good effect even if there's no hex removed.

What Anet did to Ancestor's Rage was genius, and such a mechanic needs to be applied to caster damage before it can be viable for offense. The problem with caster direct damage is that it multiplies so quickly, and once you have 2 or more copies, pressure disappears and you get spike. See pre-nerf Searing Flames or Rit-spike.

Warrior DPS can be controlled considerably by blocks and blindness. Warriors punish you when your defense fails. They are and probably always will be the most balanced class in the game simply because of their nature. They have to run in (no teleporting), and they have to chase you down, and they have to hit you. They do not have the energy or available skills to continually remove conditions or hexes, or to do a lot of utility. Their presence is their utility, because good teams know the price to be paid when defense collapses, and have to play to their favor. More counters exist for them than for any other class.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 14, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Yeah but sometimes I don't understand you top PvP players.
Ensign seems to be worried about physicals being too overpowered, in short, being the only viable mean of offense.
When Devs try to switch to other means of offense, PvP players cry for nerfs.
I'm particularly refering to the Hex metagame. It was an alternate way to have good offense, and BTW very good at shutting down said overpowered physicals. Every PvPer around here then asked for Hex nerf (and now hexes suck again), whereas the hex boost was answering the primary concern of somany PvPers: to much focus on physicals.
Let's say A-Net cut recharge and energy cost on ele spells, while lowering a bit their damage so they have DPS, and so offense based on eles would be viable, wouldn't you say also this isn't balanced?

This is off-topic and I kind of hope that it doesn't go more, but I have to emphasize that caster pressure is perfectly viable if you can make sure that it doesn't become degenerate. I mean, what viable caster pressure templates have there been? SF, hexes, and mind blast? Mind blast was a pretty nice pressure character I'll admit (though it was ineffective unless used with physicals), but stuff like hexes and SF were degenerate mind-less win buttons.

If you haven't read Ensign's "why nuking sucks" thread, I suggest that you do to show why it's extremely hard to create a viable caster pressure template.

glountz · Oct 14, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

If you haven't read Ensign's "why nuking sucks" thread, I suggest that you do to show why it's extremely hard to create a viable caster pressure template.

I have done so, and long ago, the first time he posted it. I'm perfectly aware of melee domination over the meta. What I'm saying is that if Devs made a viable caster pressure (like they did for hexes - it was IMHO a perfect example of viable caster pressure), most PvPers would ask for nerfs.

But it's off topic so I won't continue.
Sorry to have trolled this topic.