Curse

leeky baby · Aug 06, 2007, 12:16 PM // 12:16

channeling on a alter = gg

u can just spam because of so much energy

Battle of Evermore · Aug 06, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

I liked the guy who pointed out channeling promotes bad positioning. I tend to avoid battle anyhow. I often find myself, even vs teams like heroway, standing in range to MAYBE get 1e back per spell. I tend to kite in and out of range of frontline to heal (a bit dif vs spikes, obviously). Channeling just doesn't do much for me. Those who have played with me seldom have too many complaints...and they don't realize that if channeling is on my bar -- I never cast it.

My question was if people liked other skills, though. I wasn't asking for a channeling love/hate fest. I'm aware most monks can't play without it. But those who can, I was looking for other ideas. GoLE is the most appealing other skill for e-management. I understand this. Someone mentioned soldiers defense...which certainly has some potential.

Anyhow...I'm sure this thread is going to continue to be a pro-con channeling thread...if it continues. Thus, if anyone has any new ideas, whilst you can post them...if you don't want to, plz atleast PM me with the ideas

Thanks.

BlackEagle · Aug 06, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Chanelling is the best e-management skill in HA, therefore debating other options is pointless as you should just use chanelling. Especially with the amount of iway/heroways about with pets/minions, there is no reason to not take chanelling. It can affect your positioning, but in HA the maps are all so tight and the skill level of the other team will generally mean that even if you're in a bad position, they won't notice and punish it.

If you can't take chanelling for whatever reason, then GoLE is going to be the next best e-management. Though really, just take chanelling.

Div · Aug 06, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Why work around channeling by putting two copies of aegis, extinguish and blinding surge on your midline when you could achieve the same effect against heroway by taking one skill? Also, I'd like to see you beat zerg without channeling. I don't care how godly of a monk you are (in fact, I KNOW you're not one because there's only a handful that I would consider that). You just won't survive e-denial and pressure without a way to get it back.

Snow Bunny · Aug 06, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Why work around channeling by putting two copies of aegis, extinguish and blinding surge on your midline when you could achieve the same effect against heroway by taking one skill? Also, I'd like to see you beat zerg without channeling. I don't care how godly of a monk you are (in fact, I KNOW you're not one because there's only a handful that I would consider that). You just won't survive e-denial and pressure without a way to get it back.

QFT.

Especially in Halls, the 3-way just sort of turns into a mosh pit, especially if some of that Zergway/Heroway garbage pokes its head into the mix. If you're running 3 monks...ok...you don't NEED it, but then again, do you want to win?

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

Wtf do u use lod for? Spikes? And when was the last time u saw a good pressure build.(As in real pressure no thumpway bs) U dont need channeling u need a midline. And fire eles dont count.

Have you ever monked?? gg.

BlackEagle · Aug 06, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Have you ever monked?? gg.

Actually, what he said is pretty true. In gvg you don't need chanelling or energy management because you have bsurge etc. and just general mitigation of damage. From that respect, he is correct.

However, for halls you won't get a midline as every build is blast the other team and whoever goes boom first loses, so you still need chanelling on the monks to deal with it.

Snow Bunny · Aug 06, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Yeah, you're right about the GvG part. I was replying to the comment about LoD, in reference to HA. In GvG, the midline will take care of that for you, but LoD+channeling in HA is fabulous e-management.

Sorry about that.

Darkpower Alchemist · Aug 06, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14

E management has a few strong staples, though alternatives still exist. The point of most emanagement, that I know of depends on either previous investment in a attribute line, or minor investment for major/satisfactory gains.

[skill=big]Channeling[/skill]

This is perfect for 2 reasons in HA. CQC(Close Quarters Combat) is what HA is really about, and the minimal investment needed to make it satisfactorily effective. In that, the numbers don't lie.

[skill=big]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill]

My personal favorite, since Aegis Chaining is great on defense. Though moderately less useful on a monk after its move to Energy Storage, it does make the use of heavy energy spells so much more convenient.

Yet, the question of preference is abit wasted here, due to the linear way of emanagement applications in PvP by PvPers. It's basically one or the other when you talk to them. Any other ways to manage energy would either fall into signet useage or skills that take more of an investment into their respective attribute lines- which is looked down upon for obvious reasons.

NEOgeo · Aug 06, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

channeling is by far the best e-managment skill in ha for monks in most circumstances , exceptions can be made if your running some SoD build with energy heavy skills imo, but generally for a lod / rc with cheap spammable skills channeling is king .

Oni Firestarter · Aug 06, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Not alot of great response IMO.

It depends on the bars you are running, and the builds you are running.

I hate when people talk about "energy management" skills, because every single cast you make is about managing your energy. LoD does alot more for emanagement than channeling does. If you go into a game and you have zero disruption, and every team humilities your LoD all game, dshot is better for your emanagement than channeling could ever be. Spamming RoF heals is FTL.

Now of course how many teams bring sig humil in halls, and how many builds dont have any force of dshot/Kds etc? not many. So very rarely will dshot be better for emanagement than channeling.

If you are running a build with a ton of physicals (paras, rangers with natty stride, warriors who dont suck at frenzy), is channeling REALLY your best choice? Is it REALLy saving you en? your energy is going to be spent keeping your physicals clean, and not dying. Is the benefits from channeling really better than soldier's defense? Id argue no.

When you have a bunch of squishy mes and eles running around and are using PS liberally, now suddenly channeling probably shines.

Another issue is how much AoE are you packing. If you are packing alot of AoE, you are going to be pushing for cluster RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs and your monks will have no problem running hte middle of battle because your massive AoE will be driving their cahractesr away from you via the threat of damage.

When you are running no AoE, you are going to be trying to get your team to stay spread out as much as possible, and if YOU guys are doing a good job staying spraed out, unless they are horribly bad, they will also spread out, and suddenly your channelling is mediocre at best.

But if you are playing in a three monk backline and have lots of prot on your etc, prot doesn't make bars go up. And when you come under pressure, its a matter of keeping LoD clean and in play. Channeling doesn't do that. Defensive stances do. It then depends how much spot healing you are packing on your bar. if you have a bunch of 5 en spot heals, channeling can let you power through. If you dont, no RoF/Prot spirit spam is gonna push bars u p:P

So its really a matter of what your bar is, how it works, and how your build works. You dont see a ton of diversion in HA, but what good is channeling when you LoD just got diverted and you are on fetid river and have no where to run too.. but at least you have channeling? :P In this case, the returns on hex breaker just dominate channeling.

So figure out what makes you lose. Is it bottoming on energy WITH SMART SKILL USEAGE?? is it inability to deal with spikes? is it temporary shutdown? is it long term shut down? and then take skills that help you deal with it.

Alot of people use skills really badly, and then take channeling so they can continue using skills badly :P And for the most part you can get by. And then a better team will just roll you over.

Alot of times in HA, channeling is just worth it. Its such a clusterRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO on alot of maps, and everything becomes a lot more chaotic that you can usually keep prots up on yourself while in reasonably deep that channeling comes out really well. But every build is different, and if you are finding yourself shut down all game, if you are finding that KDs are killing you more than energy constraints,or you getting LoD dshotted way too much etc etc, than you might want to look at shoring that up first.

More often than not, the returns on channelling will just dwarf what else you are going to get in that slot, because HA is such a clusterRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO. But that its the only option? Hardly.

Thomas.knbk · Aug 06, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

(Sod-> Protspirit-> dwaynas/other-> dismiss with lightning shields will cover the spike, but of course u actually have to read the spike)

yeah, so that's 30 energy per spike? good luck. That's going to be over pretty soon with or without channeling.
There was already a thread about this a while back, but I can't find it. It basically featured one guy saying 'I don't know any monks who use GoLE' over and over again, so it's not much of a miss. I argued there that Channeling promotes bad positioning and made it harder to (pre)kite properly, but I haven't played HA in 'bout 4 months so whatever.

Teh [prefession]-zorz · Aug 06, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Fox

I've been playing with Soldier's Defense instead of Channeling simply to practice smarter use of energy and skills. I like Channeling and it's a great tool in the crowded HA maps but it does give newer monks(me) something to crutch on. Not good if I want to get better.

ahh ive used that skill before with success but only when playing the paraspike build, and saying that when i roll the balance out we dont usually have a paragon so the use is limited, but what about trying out balance stance? no KD no critical?

TheOneMephisto · Aug 06, 2007, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Channeling does promote bad positioning, that's a fact.

However, it's SO FREAKING GOOD in HA because of the clusterfest that HA tends to turn into that noone really cares and it makes up for it.

Battle of Evermore · Aug 10, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Why work around channeling by putting two copies of aegis, extinguish and blinding surge on your midline when you could achieve the same effect against heroway by taking one skill? Also, I'd like to see you beat zerg without channeling. I don't care how godly of a monk you are (in fact, I KNOW you're not one because there's only a handful that I would consider that). You just won't survive e-denial and pressure without a way to get it back.

I was under the impression that people being a good/bad monk made them a good/bad monk. Now I realize that your opinion of them makes them a good/bad monk, as you "know" these things. Glad we got that in order.

Now, as to other responses:

Signet of Rejuvenation is an example of an e-management skill that people don't, for whatever reason, consider e-management. It's a free heal, while you use it...energy regens. You net energy upon using...so it's a bit more than a free heal.

Also, as a few have noted: channeling does promote bad positioning. Why make up for it with energy...when you could avoid the predicament in the first place?

It's funny...you'd think if most people need channeling to get by...that would keep them in the 'par' category. When someone can go beyond that...and excel...you'd think that'd make them good. Turns out the general consensus indicates people thing only those who use channeling are good. I'm not sure if this is to make themselves feel better or what...but sure seems not-right.

That's another discussion. I guess GoLE and channeling are the only two people use in HA...meh. I'm not really going to revisit this thread. PM me if you think of something original.

Div · Aug 10, 2007, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle of Evermore

I was under the impression that people being a good/bad monk made them a good/bad monk. Now I realize that your opinion of them makes them a good/bad monk, as you "know" these things. Glad we got that in order.

Now, as to other responses:

Signet of Rejuvenation is an example of an e-management skill that people don't, for whatever reason, consider e-management. It's a free heal, while you use it...energy regens. You net energy upon using...so it's a bit more than a free heal.

Also, as a few have noted: channeling does promote bad positioning. Why make up for it with energy...when you could avoid the predicament in the first place?

It's funny...you'd think if most people need channeling to get by...that would keep them in the 'par' category. When someone can go beyond that...and excel...you'd think that'd make them good. Turns out the general consensus indicates people thing only those who use channeling are good. I'm not sure if this is to make themselves feel better or what...but sure seems not-right.

That's another discussion. I guess GoLE and channeling are the only two people use in HA...meh. I'm not really going to revisit this thread. PM me if you think of something original.

My comment about the good/bad monk just means that I have different standards for being a good/bad monk. I can be having a horrible off day in RA and there will still be people PMing me saying how well I monked, when I considered myself to be monking horribly. There are also people I know that think they're really good at monking, when I can easily point out major flaws in their monking behavior at first glance.

We're talking about skills in relation to the team build and current meta of HA. My argument is that with all the zergway (edenial) and spiritspammer/minionmasters out there, there are plenty of bodies to use channeling for. and it is very advantageous to use those bodies for your emanagement. GoLE used to be a strong choice since you don't lose positioning, but since HA is so crowded atm, there is really no definitive front-mid-backline. Defensive skills are great for GvG, but HA is much faster paced and requires more spamming of skills in a short amount of time. LoD is definitely a form of emanagement, but these days, it's often not enough. Signet of rejuvenation is definitely emanagement, but how effective is it in this HA environment compared to channeling?

The general consensus is that channeling will make your life easier in HA, not make you necessarily good. Sure your styles may vary, and they might even work better, but until you're a well-known monk, people are still going to make you take what 90% of monks in HA take. If they don't know your skills, at the very least, you'll have a bar they trust is good. A similar comparison can be made for PvE groups like the Deep and DoA. They'll require you to have certain skills on your bar, but there are certainly other options that will work too, but just less effectively for 99%+ of the players.

It's not to say the meta can't be broken, but until you become JR, people will laugh at you for bringing YAA on a monk, or until you become tommy, people won't let you bring reverse hex without any emanagement on a GvG monk.

Tifa Superstar · Aug 17, 2007, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle of Evermore

It's funny...you'd think if most people need channeling to get by...that would keep them in the 'par' category. When someone can go beyond that...and excel...you'd think that'd make them good. Turns out the general consensus indicates people thing only those who use channeling are good. I'm not sure if this is to make themselves feel better or what...but sure seems not-right.

That's another discussion. I guess GoLE and channeling are the only two people use in HA...meh. I'm not really going to revisit this thread. PM me if you think of something original.

Sorry, don't care how good you 'think' you are, there is absolutely no way you could survive a heavy pressure build for more than a couple of minutes without chanelling. Not a chance.

pah01 · Aug 19, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

There is a lot of crap around in this thread.

Your choice of skills/secondary should be influenced by the whole team build. The second thing that you need to consider is what kinds of builds are killing your team the most.

As for the poster above you are wrong to say that you need channeling to survive a heavy pressure build.

I am not going to repeat what Oni firestarter said but read it and understand that your bar needs to be kitted out with respect to the build you are running.

Joe

Signet Of Hell · Aug 19, 2007, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle of Evermore

GoLE is somewhat like channeling. But like channeling...on my bar it's rarely, if ever, actually used.

Ok you can't compare GoLE and channeling. If you rarely ever use it, then how can you compare it in the first place? Do you tend to hold halls or just get there and leave? Channeling is a god send holding halls, especially as an infuser.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle of Evermore

I know some of you don't see draw conditions and are massively confused. I try to avoid RC's. RC < SoD. RC < DH. (DH destroys heroway as much as SoD does...maybe more).

The sheer heal from RC makes it 10 times more effective then SoD or DH. DH is pretty much a waste unless the meta is heavy hexes. And you try to avoid RC's? uhm, why? :< Any good team knows how to manage heroway, no need to base your bar around it unless you're gonna meet it 9/10 times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle of Evermore

I was curious, what do you other monks prefer? I'm sure most of you use channeling. Feel free to state so, but I am looking for more far-fetched ideas to look into.

-erm

I always take Channeling, its uber.

hyro yamaguchi · Aug 19, 2007, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Channeling is only good if you have another monk that can back you up if you are on the frontline.

And RC>DH since there are more conditions than hexes around.

samcobra · Aug 19, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tifa Superstar

Sorry, don't care how good you 'think' you are, there is absolutely no way you could survive a heavy pressure build for more than a couple of minutes without chanelling. Not a chance.

Lies! Soldier's Defense and Disciplined Stance will get me through! Who needs emanagement when the first person on your team carries bip?