Curse

Greedy Gus · Oct 12, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Right now, most builds are simply physical damage overload, which is mostly the fault of Agonizing Chop, and the ability to slot a Paragon for even more physical damage without sacrificing defensive ability.

Come on now, agonizing chop doesn't belong anywhere near that sentence. Agonizing chop isn't breaking the game, it's just illuminative of the larger problem with continual slight individual skillbar power creep. If it gets nerfed (which I'm not saying it shouldn't), there are just tons of solid things that can easily be slotted in that bar. There are even plenty of other warrior bars that are just as strong, just maybe not as good in a block meta as an axe war who can spam attack skills and not care if any one individually gets through. If anything, you should have mentioned conjure, which is the main way agonizing can be considered too strong.

Riotgear · Oct 12, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

If anything, you should have mentioned conjure, which is the main way agonizing can be considered too strong.

Actually yes, I should have, don't know how I let that slip. It's still broken though, for the same reason that Critical Chop was, and is another contribution to the Physical Overload vs. Blockway meta.

kitiara · Oct 12, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

They had some reason or other for making Barbed Arrows easily interruptable, I forget what. It comes down to whether Burning Arrow + Apply Poison is better than Poison Arrow + Barbed Arrows. Right now, the answer is definitely "yes" and it's more Poison Arrow's fault, really.

It will never be good because your forced to spam poison arrow to much the concept will never work. Also rangers and mesmers will rape your face because you cant cancel attack skills. The skill is diversion and Dshot bait.

Quote:

Blinding Surge

10e 3/4s cast 4s recharge

Elite Spell. Target foe is struck for 5...41...50 lightning damage and Blinded for 2...7...8 seconds. If that foe is under the effects of an Enchantment, all adjacent foes are also Blinded for 2...7...8 seconds. This Spell has 25% armor penetration.

---> 10e 1/2s cast 4s recharge

Elite Spell. Target foe is struck for 5...41...50 lightning damage and Blinded for 2...7...8 seconds. If that foe is under the effects of an Enchantment or attacking, all adjacent foes are also Blinded for 2...7...8 seconds. This Spell has 25% armor penetration.

Ok so you buff bsurge from AoE blind if target is enchanted to AoE blind all the time and you say

Quote:

yep a little, id much rather see active defense that takes some brains to use actually get used rather than the brainless 'use and forget' stuff we see today. We dont see bsurge eles anymore simply because they are not needed in the para + mes/ele + r/mo midlines.

I think you missed the point... A. Bsurge is usable as it is. B. Bsurge bars have the problem of no skill required so how is making Bsurge easier to use going to fix that? C. Its failling out of the because a bsurge warder cant carry the same utility as a mes with wards or the same damage a para with DA can. Also WTF why do you want to buff Bsurge SRSLY?

Quote:

Conjure Flame/Lightning/Frost

durations 60 seconds recharge 45 seconds

---> duration 45 seconds, recharge 60 seconds

Distracting Shot

5e 1/2s activation 10s recharge

---> 5e 1/2s activation 15s recharge

Why? and also No.

Some of your suggested updates looked cool but most were no just NO. Some were like ok cool you did something to that pointless skill that no one cares about.

Quote:

SA sins are clearly one of the most skill-less bars you could make with a sin, with probably the deadly arts guy a bit easier. Don't fool yourselves kids: it's drain and train. No skill required.

Ok at first your QQing was like.. O hey that guy is QQing about losing to SA sins LOL. Now its just getting old. Its already been said the only thing wrong with these sins is Assassins Remedy if you want to suggest changes to that skill do so, but for gods sake man stop ****ing QQing about the same thing and say something constructive for a change.

Quote:

Signet of Humility is fine. It only becomes an issue when used on LoD, because of the incredible reliance teams have on LoD. If effective supplements to LoD existed, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I want HP bots back!!! Actually no I dont but I would like to see an alternative to LoD. The way Guilds Wars works you will always need a HP spell of some kind in your build I just want some alternatives to LoD.

~kit

Edit go go guru filter bot.

Lorekeeper · Oct 12, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitiara

I

I think you missed the point... A. Bsurge is usable as it is. B. Bsurge bars have the problem of no skill required so how is making Bsurge easier to use going to fix that? C. Its failling out of the because a bsurge warder cant carry the same utility as a mes with wards or the same damage a para with DA can. Also WTF why do you want to buff Bsurge SRSLY?

you need to understand whats going on here. There is a general feeling that passive defense is bad for the game. And mesmers with wards and DA paras are a symptom of the passive defense meta which i hope will be dealt with in the upcoming skill balances.

in the balances i suggested, a mesmer will find it harder to maintain ward melee because of its increased energy cost and the hit to Gole. Of course the mesmer could use pdrain and denchant instead but a 15e cost on the ward might force the mesmer to lose offensive effectiveness in favour of keeping wards up 24/7. My hit to ward melee is a tad conservative, it has been suggested to increase its recharge to prevent perpetual coverage. It has even been suggested that MoR should be hit somehow.

with regards to DA paras. People want those hit too. They want the tanking behaviour of the paragon dealt with, which could be solved by the AR change many have been suggesting. They also want leadership to be hit somewhat to make less easy to spam high cost shouts like DA and shields up on recharge.

the fast cast warder and the DA para are at the focus of many peoples concerns about the defensive blocking meta.

The deeper problem some have highlighted, is that solving the problems of the meta is not simply a case of tackling these 2 aspects. The reason why such reliable passive defenses are used so much is because the number of viable active defenses are much less effective. Without this layer of passive defense, and in face of the conjure warriors and wearying strike spamming dervishes and high ranged dps paragons, teams would crumble in seconds.

assuming the fast cast wards and DA defenses are hit somehow, other things need to be changed to maintain the equilibrium.

if you imagine a scale with physical dmg on one end, and passive+active anti physical defense on the other, if we disturb the reliability of passive defenses (which we have seen in the hit to aegis... and now possibly wards and DA)
one end of the scale becomes lighter. Passive defenses form such a vital part of that end that even a slight hit to its effectiveness is enough to disturb the balance between full party wipe and a stalemate.

but that is the problem with passive defense, its so wide and shallow that it needs to be layered in order to be effective. But then it is effective, it becomes too effective.

The best balance would be for teams to bring a mixture of passive and active defense. The layers of passive defense will give teams time to put into place their active defense, and if either fails they can fall back on the other.

in todays meta, the amount of active defense is pitiful ---> SoD.

but the amount of passive defense is overloaded ---> DA, aegis, ward melee, shields up, watch yourself.

if DA and ward melee get a slight hit, i think other forms of active defense need to get buffed.

hence my changes to the monk prots and the very slight buff to bsurge.

its not even that much of a buff, it helps to stop training, but a good frontline will not spend all of its time training single targets. It also might provide some much needed defensive utility at VoD, where the lack of passive defense will be felt the most.

it is wrong to compare the skill required to play a bsurge ele to that of a character with passive defense.

just having bsurge on your bar can mean very little, if you do not know when to blind frontliners. eg you dont spam bsurge on recharge (which i assume you believe they should).

while having ward melee and DA generaly means quite alot no matter how good you are. (they are meant to be spammed on recharge).

bsurge is just one example of an ''active'' form of defense i think might need a buff if other forms of ''passive'' defenses get hit.

Captain Robo · Oct 12, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Also Robo the SA sin bar has more than 1 skill, if you look at the bar you'll notice that they were buffed last patch which made it viable.

By viable, I assume you mean unblockable (and yes, I'm fully aware that SA assassins bring more than SA to the table, if you read my post I said that they were marvels of utility).

I'd say its about damn time they made something that melee classes can do about all the passive defense in this game. Aegis, Shield of Deflection, Shields Up, Blinds, Wards, Defensive Anthem, all ten billion of the evasion stances; its amazing that people still play warriors.

With that in mind let's check the reasons why SA sins are good:

Unblockable Attack Chain: yes
Stance Canceling: yes, with the added bonus of being on a short recharge and part of the attack chain
Enchantment Removal: Oh God yes
Self-Perpetuating Condition Removal: yes

Most will usually go /W for Fear Me and Rush.

This is the first major dagger assassin build to not be a Hotox-Falling Spider-Twisting Fangs clone; a build that actually uses lead->offhand->dual attacks.

I applaud the creator of this build, as it is the most utilitarian construction since the introduction of the original Crippling Shot ranger.

The true strength of this build is that it forces people to rethink what has been considered "the metagame" for the last couple of months. Passive defense was overpowered; this build counters it.

Get used to it and adapt.

The SA sin is nothing more than the latest incarnation of the ages-old pressure machine. It has no mobility and survivability other than its own momentum. It is by no means a one-trick pony (which lends to its utility and overall strength), but unless a monk is constantly pumping energy into that sin, it's going to die.

I think we're going to see a resurgence in linebacking characters in order to combat this type of assassin, because knockdowns still drop him straight on his ass.

People just need to realize how many dimensions there are to guildwars; nothing is invincible, everything has a counter. Just quit being so whiny about what is apparently overpowered, especially in the metagame shift we're going through right now.

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 12, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

I fail to see much of a meta-game shift. SA sin builds are still rather limited in usage, i still don't like how many forms of shutdown they are able to eclipse but they are hardly meta. The impending skill update will bring about the new meta and i doubt SA sin frontlines will be the most applicable. I don't mind their presence but i'd abhor a meta dominated by overpowered physicals, them being one of those. A slight hit to Assassin's remedy seems within reason

Master Ketsu · Oct 12, 2007, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Took a look at assassins remedy. I agree that now that it removes before the attack hits, its OP. However, its UP if you take that ability away.

Heres a few ideas on what I suggest:

Proposal 1
Assassins Remedy:

Cost: 5
Time: 1
Recharge: 12
For 30 Seconds, the next attack skill you use removes 1 condition and 1 hex. ( 75% failure chance with critical strike 6 or less )

Proposal 2 ( basic nerf )
Assassins Remedy:

Cost: 5
Time: 1
Recharge: 20
For 15 seconds, the next 1...2..4 attack skills you use remove one Condition.

Proposal 3

Cost: 5
time: 1
recharge: 12
For 15 Seconds, the next attack skill you use removes 1 condition and heals you for 20.....75...115 health.

BlackSephir · Oct 12, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Or make it remove conditions after the skill should hit.
Now if you're blinded and under AR and use attack skill, blind is removed before hit.
Change it so you'll still miss but the condition will be removed.

Lorekeeper · Oct 12, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

assassins remedy is balanced by the fact its only useful on assassins.

seriously, the new unblindable+unblockable sins are just a novelty. People just arent used to dealing with old fashioned melee trains, at least these new melee trains have no reliable form of snares and suffer from weak armour. Countering melee is not just a matter of blinding or blocking them. You can kite them and force them to overextend... then collapse on them. They only cause pressure when they are hitting stuff and to inflict pressure on stuff they hit they need to train them for quite some time. If you honestly dont know how to deal with melee trains without blind and blocking you need to reevaluate your grasp of the game.

you might just have to start spiking stuff whos class is something other than monk or mes. Frontlines collapsing on frontlines was one of the favoured solutions to a melee train. And with the low armour that assassins have, constantly collapsing on them is going to test their monks sorely. Assassins remedy is not going to save them from a crip shot ranger. Nor water snares.

But seriously, just fall back deep, and if they are stupid enough to follow you, kill them. I saw 2 frontline sins dped out in a match today, done by this method.

these sins just require for you to actually be able to rely on your adaptability and strategic awareness rather than relying on your skill bar to win.

and that is what GvG needs more of.

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 12, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Mindless sin bars aren't what we need more of, especially since DD sins and SA sins saw no adjustment

Seamus Finn · Oct 12, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

seriously, the new unblindable+unblockable sins are just a novelty. People just arent used to dealing with old fashioned melee trains, at least these new melee trains have no reliable form of snares and suffer from weak armour.

The characters themselves have easy access to siphon speed, which is a very strong snare, especially for the sins themselves, and it isn't exactly hard to slot snare characters these days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitiara

B. Bsurge bars have the problem of no skill required so how is making Bsurge easier to use going to fix that?

This statement is really ifluenced by the meta. Bsurge is only an appealing place to put a weak player when his defense is overlapped by other characters in teh build multiple times. Thus, when the player is mediocre, the sting isn't felt so much because his purpose is to mire up tiny holes in a wall of defence. If the bsurger is your team's primary defensive character, he better be good or you will wipe.

kitiara · Oct 12, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

This statement is really ifluenced by the meta. Bsurge is only an appealing place to put a weak player when his defense is overlapped by other characters in teh build multiple times. Thus, when the player is mediocre, the sting isn't felt so much because his purpose is to mire up tiny holes in a wall of defence. If the bsurger is your team's primary defensive character, he better be good or you will wipe.

Ok I agree with that, but still changing Bsurge conditional to almost unconditional AoE blind is still a BAD IDEA. The skill is strong as it is no need to buff it.

Riotgear · Oct 12, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

The true strength of this build is that it forces people to rethink what has been considered "the metagame" for the last couple of months. Passive defense was overpowered; this build counters it.

Get used to it and adapt.

One reason it's worrying is because it's strong against active defense as well. It cuts through Guardian and Spirit Bond just as well as Aegis and Ward. I could make some skill that steals 500 life from everyone in the area of the target, that would do an awesome job of cutting through passive defense too, the problem is that it's broken.

Any counters expected to work on SA assassins work equally well as anti-warrior counters, and if people can keep warriors clean (which they obviously can), they can keep an SA assassin clean. Shortening the list of counters is dangerous because it makes it easier for the team to patch over whatever counters are left and proceed to steamroll.

People are giving it way too much praise for disrupting the meta. I don't want the meta disrupted by a stupid gimmick and have that stupid gimmick become the new meta. That's not an improvement.

Lorekeeper · Oct 12, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

People are giving it way too much praise for disrupting the meta. I don't want the meta disrupted by a stupid gimmick and have that stupid gimmick become the new meta. That's not an improvement.

i really doubt it will. So fingers crossed eh?

basically, if people know how to punish squishy frontliners who must brainlessly train targets to achieve maximum effectiveness, SA/AR assassin frontlines will remain what they are at the moment, just a novelty that is particularly useful against blockway. If people fail to show this basic grasp of defensive strategy, yes, maybe they will become more and more popular.

i doubt we will see them spreading and dominating the meta because i think assassins are far too easy to DP out. For that reason alone, they will never stand shoulder to shoulder with warriors and melandru dervishes as staple frontline characters.

ensoriki · Oct 13, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

<i>All shadowsteps reduced to just beyond earshot range. 1 1/2 will do.

Shadow Prison. Recharge nerf to 30 seconds, Casting time increased to 1 second.

Entangling asp. No longer kds the target</i>

WTF!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Shadow prison, go ahead nerf it, like that I dont use it i dont want to use it.
IMO a better nerf would be
Shadow Prison. recharge stays the same, Shadow step to an opponent they become 50% slower and you become 33% slower 5 adrenaline 1 second casting time.

Why
The recharge is fine really, if you slow down the assassin too that means a speed buff kite lets you get away from the assassin (your faster) That starting energy isnt much to an assassin but adrenaline is. A sin would have to actually Attack something first before he could shadow prison (
its not imbalanced just much harder to execute...need to pick a startup target and then once you have adrenaline switch to your spike)
a assassin can take away that 33% slower nerf with dash, but that removes a potential skill!

An assassin will have to become Defenceless or slow.
Which makes kiting (speedbuff) an easy shadow prison counter (that you really should have in most cases anyways)
Adrenaline means if you see an assassin attacking, hes probably building up adrenaline.... its really more like an additional 3 second casting time cus you see the assassin attacking to build up adrenaline.

Now heres the big problem I have with wtf you just said.
Nerf shadowsteps

If you want to nerf shadowsteps, your probably play a pretty crappy assassin or just hate them in general and don't know how bad that would hurt them.

When I shadowstep its from these 5 skills
Aura of Displacement
Shadow Meld
Deaths charge
Shadow Walk
Recall.
If any of these are nerfed considering these skills are balanced just fine right now...thats a problem on A-nets part and the player base thats so blind to it.

AuD Get 10 energy and its maintaned so lose 1 energy pip (that does affect sins a bit ya I know about crit strikes)

Shadow meld, warp to an ally, when you remove this enchantment you move back to the place you warped to (cast it on an ally at the beginnig go into battle... Warp all the way back and heal)... No its not cheap, cus once you've used that warp once....your allies are already in battle... 1 trick pony really.

Deaths charge...30 recharge

Shadow walk... cant use enchantments.

Stop nagging on shadow steps due to some minor skills, its simply retarded. Sins use shadow steps and within earshot is so abhorred it's disgusting.

Entangling Asp was almost never used until Deadly paradox came into play.

so my Deadly paradox nerf.

Duration x-x (what it is now) recharge 14 seconds) your next 2-10 (10 is max deadly arts) assassin skills cast and activate 50% faster. If you use a melee skill its disabled for 10....4 seconds ^.^
Deadly paradox ends if you use a signet.

Lorekeeper · Oct 16, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

apparently there will be more skill updates coming this week...

anyone care to guess what they might be or hope they might be?

my list (please dont flame me, youre not forced to agree with my ideas)

Shield of Deflection

- recharge reduced to 7 seconds
- reduced duration to 2...4...5 seconds
- reduced block rate to 50%
- increased cast time to 1/2s

Lifesheath

Elite Enchantment Spell. For 10 seconds, the next 30...126...150 damage target ally would take is negated.

- Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5 seconds, the next 50...156...170 damage target ally would take is negated.

5e 1s cast 7s recharge ---> 5e/10e 3/4s cast 7s recharge

Shield Guardian

Enchantment Spell. For 10 seconds, target ally has a 75% chance to block incoming attacks. The next time target ally blocks an attack, that ally and all nearby allies are healed for 16...67...80 and Shield Guardian ends.

10e 1/4s cast 1s recharge ---> 10e 1s cast 5s recharge

- For 3 seconds, target ally has a 75% chance to block incoming attacks. Each time target ally takes damage while under this enchantment that ally and all nearby allies are healed for 6...47...60 health.

Keystone Signet

- increased recharge to 15 seconds
- increased cast time to 2 seconds

Signet of Humility

- changed function

- everytime target foe uses an elite skill activation of that elite skill has a 50% failure rate

Angorodon's Gaze

- decreased energy return to 10 energy

Dancing Daggers/Impale/Crippling Daggers

- now attack skills

Augury of Death

- increased recharge to 20 seconds

Ebon Hawk

10e 2s cast 5s recharge ---> 5e 1s cast 5s recharge

Stoning

15e 1s cast 5s recharge ---> 10e 1s cast 5s recharge

Earthquake/Dragon's Stomp

25e 3s cast 15s recharge ---> 15e 3s cast 15s recharge

Ashblast

5e 1s cast 8s recharge ---> 5e 1/2s cast 5s recharge

Eruption

25e 3s cast 30s recharge ---> 15e 3s cast 20s recharge

Stone Sheath

Elite Hex Spell. For 10...30...35 seconds, attacks made by target foe and all nearby foes deal earth damage and cannot cause a critical hit.

5e 1s cast 15s recharge - 10e 2s cast 15s recharge

- Elite Enchantment spell. For 10...30...35 seconds, target other ally attacks 15% slower, moves 25% slower, and inflict 33% more damage while wielding a earth weapon in melee. While under this enchantment target other ally also has +24 armour.

OR

- Elite Hex Spell. For 10...30...35 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes move 25% slower, attack 25% slower, deal earth damage and every attack they make has a 25/33% chance of knocking down their target. While under this hex foes also have +24 armour.

Stone Striker

Enchantment Spell. For 5...25...30 seconds, whenever you take or deal elemental or physical damage, that damage is converted to earth damage.

5e 1/4s cast 20s recharge ---> 5e 1s cast 15s recharge

- Hex Spell. For 5...15...20 seconds target foe and all adjacent foes deal earth damage, and attack 15% slower.

Grasping Earth

Hex Spell. For 8...18...20 seconds, all nearby foes move 50% slower.

5e 3/4s cast 12s recharge ---> 5e 3/4s cast 15s recharge

Obsidian Flame

Spell. Deal 22...94...112 damage to target foe. This Spell ignores armor but causes Exhaustion.

5e 2s cast 5s recharge ---> 10e 2s cast 5s recharge

say what you will, this is only meant to be a wishlist after all

yum · Oct 17, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Shield Guardian

Enchantment Spell. For 10 seconds, target ally has a 75% chance to block incoming attacks. The next time target ally blocks an attack, that ally and all nearby allies are healed for 16...67...80 and Shield Guardian ends.

10e 1/4s cast 1s recharge ---> 10e 1s cast 5s recharge

- For 3 seconds, target ally has a 75% chance to block incoming attacks. Each time target ally takes damage while under this enchantment that ally and all nearby allies are healed for 6...47...60 health.

For a lifesaving skill, 1s cast is too long, imo. The 1/4 s cast should be kept but the the heal should be nerfed a bit like 3..37..40.
My idea is to change this skill completely:
5e 3/4s cast 8s recharge
- For 4 seconds, Each time target ally successfully blocks an attack while under this enchantment that ally is healed for 6...47...60 health.

Quote:

Dancing Daggers/Impale/Crippling Daggers

- now attack skills

DD: remove its lead status
Impale: make it counted as a dual.Must follow an offhand.
Disrupting Dagger=> unblockable attack skill. If interupt a skill,take 3..7..9 energy from target foe.
Shameful fear: 10e 2c 10r => 5e 1c 15r
Augury:Same e c and r=> if target foe hp drops below 50%, you and that foe get a deep wound and you shadowstep to that foe.
....
Kill DP and fix the shitty DA skills' recharge and cast time.
Dinner

Nurse With Wound · Oct 17, 2007, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ockhams

u realize ur posting in a nerf wishlist and proposing some insanely retarded buffs right?

aside from the keystone nerf (which you must have copied and i agree with, but maybe really 20 sec to bring it in line with oath shot), augury of death (which seems a bit harsh considering it is a conditional deep wound with the shadow stepping side effect 15 sec seems good, i can't believe i'm entertaining ur ideas at all), and omg the humility nerf (you must be CAN I GET A "GO RED ENGINE" GOREDing insane)...

these are all terrible ideas and should be deleted. plz dont clutter up the good ideas with ur inane babble and random idiocy.

thx

You are free to disagree with Lorekeeper's ideas, but you have no right to do backseat modding - telling people what they can and what they cannot post.

If your only contribution to the discussion is flame towards one of our most prolific posters, it is you who should stop posting.

This thread was created specially for "nerf wishlist" and as such is for posting subjective opinions about what should be changed and how. If you want to criticize someone's ideas, do it properly.