Curse

Bankai · Oct 11, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

His proposal for heal area is a substantial buff. AOE increased to in the area and now only heals party members.

I sighed. Quietly.

Oh.

Bah. If you're going to bold changes, do it consistently. >.>

Riotgear · Oct 11, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

They had some reason or other for making Barbed Arrows easily interruptable, I forget what. It comes down to whether Burning Arrow + Apply Poison is better than Poison Arrow + Barbed Arrows. Right now, the answer is definitely "yes" and it's more Poison Arrow's fault, really.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 11, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

They had some reason or other for making Barbed Arrows easily interruptable, I forget what. It comes down to whether Burning Arrow + Apply Poison is better than Poison Arrow + Barbed Arrows. Right now, the answer is definitely "yes" and it's more Poison Arrow's fault, really.

Well, it would make heavy condition pressure builds potentially very strong. The ability to have a cripshot and BA ranger spreading separate degen across a team, along with the utility and split capabilities that having both those characters on a team together, makes a pretty strong set of characters depending on the meta. Of course, I wouldn't mind that, I liked KGYU type builds.

Age · Oct 11, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Shield Guardian

10e 1/4s cast 1s recharge

Enchantment Spell. For 10 seconds, target ally has a 75% chance to block incoming attacks. The next time target ally blocks an attack, that ally and all nearby allies are healed for 16...67...80 and Shield Guardian ends.

---> 10e 1s cast 5s recharge

Enchantment Spell. For 3 seconds, target ally has a 75% chance to block incoming attacks. Each time target ally takes damage, that ally and all nearby allies are healed for 16...57...70.

I would like to see a longer recharge time or say 15 to 20 sec. or reduce the energy cost to 5e.I would also like to Healing Light uninterruptable.Heal Area is probably good for MMs.

Lorekeeper · Oct 11, 2007, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Well, it would make heavy condition pressure builds potentially very strong. The ability to have a cripshot and BA ranger spreading separate degen across a team, along with the utility and split capabilities that having both those characters on a team together, makes a pretty strong set of characters depending on the meta. Of course, I wouldn't mind that, I liked KGYU type builds.

that is more of a convincing reason why barbed arrows was given easily interruptible status. I dont think fears of making poison arrow+barbed arrows overpowered are warranted.

the reason why i would like the easily interruptible status removed from the skill is to encourage KGYU style builds. Of course i am open to the criticism that such encouragement is not really needed. And yes, we have been seeing the smoke trapper condition build spreading quite widely. I guess i am just frustrated at the playerbase for not cashing in on the dual dismiss condition meta sooner and running condition overload builds, so i want to give them a gentle push in that direction by suggesting this change to barbed arrows. i think it would be good for GW for these types of builds to come back into fashion. Whether its by a gradual shift in the meta by obs mode copy pasters or by artificially forcing meta shifts with skill buffs. Preferably the former but if that fails the latter.

my change to withering aura is also motivated by this desire.

Apok Omen · Oct 11, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

The only reason people think that SA Sins are imba is because they can't be blinded during the combo, thanks to Assassin's Remedy. If it had some other way of removing Conditions, then it would be the only build that makes Sins slightly more skillful to run with. But right now, just like any other sin build, it's slightly imba.

moriz · Oct 11, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

the thing is, spreading conditions with bow rangers is mostly futile. there are simply better things the rangers should be doing. the degen condition is mostly just a cover for something more important, for example cripple or burning. apply poison is simply the overwhelming better choice.

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 11, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Well, it would make heavy condition pressure builds potentially very strong. The ability to have a cripshot and BA ranger spreading separate degen across a team, along with the utility and split capabilities that having both those characters on a team together, makes a pretty strong set of characters depending on the meta. Of course, I wouldn't mind that, I liked KGYU type builds.

I wouldn't mind seeing a BA ranger and crip apply together as long as backlines + support were capable of keeping up with the degen. If LoD goes down for 20 seconds and wipes occur within 2 minutes then there's cause for concern. If the ranger team disable LoD, blind, Aegis and ward for example, a 2 minute wipe seems fine as they deserve it.

Overload hex and condition teams are as degenerate and lack skill as much as teams overloading on block or spike. Because layering heavy conditions , lots of hexes or lots of blocks is so successful is part of the problem of guildwars. Each layer makes it that much more difficult for their opponents to break down defense as well as keeping their team alive. Those style of builds force enemy midlines to purely focus on the other midline to just get the opportunity to do anything offensively. This makes it much more difficult for the enemy ranger and mesmer to pressure enemy monks when they have so many layers to disable as well as keeping their team alive by interrupting signet or humility, taint, melee hexes, etcc.. Where as the midline of the overload teams just try to take down LoD and cause a team wipe. The block style team will just disable defense for a spike and try to prevent resses while creating pressure 7v8.

For hex builds and overload condition or physical pressure to become more balanced, the LoD guy needs to have more active defenses available as well as better healing skills, and more light party wide healing options. Self heals are still currently garbage. Plus overload team should be weaker against splits than they currently are. I would like to see more balance builds that can pressure and split become the best way to win. But they will have a difficult time beating overload teams as those teams will just wipe the stand team by taking down the LoD without having to worry about their base. The SoR ele in the meantime will just tank and heal NPC's for a long enough duration for them to push the enemy team into the base where then they'll collapse on the split or push in and kill all the Npc's quicker than the split team fighting with the SoR ele will.

moriz · Oct 11, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

condition overload isn't much of a problem. if it becomes the meta, RC monks with a secondary draw will move back into the meta to counter it. it's hex overload that's problematic. RC is the kind of elite that's really good against condition teams, and remain pretty useful (or at least won't cost you) if you don't meet a condition team. the same cannot be said about the mass hex removals though.

Seamus Finn · Oct 11, 2007, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

The only reason people think that SA Sins are imba is because they can't be blinded during the combo, thanks to Assassin's Remedy. If it had some other way of removing Conditions, then it would be the only build that makes Sins slightly more skillful to run with. But right now, just like any other sin build, it's slightly imba.

SA sins are clearly one of the most skill-less bars you could make with a sin, with probably the deadly arts guy a bit easier. Don't fool yourselves kids: it's drain and train. No skill required.

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 11, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

I see the conditions build equally as problematic, giving me build wars type examples such as take RC and draw doesn't exactly make me feel better. I shouldn't be forced to take RC/draw in order to win games. If its in a tournament and the other team purely runs an overload build i should know the viable counters to bring to win verse them, but in ladder matches or verse unknown opponents i won't have this knowledge.

I could make the same argument about hex builds becoming meta. Then your monk could just go Divert hexes and take a midline convert instead of draw. Hexes however are only viable in overloads because of their design, moreso than conditions, not without a few notable expceptions. (diversion , shame, a few water hexes)

Part of the problem with overload style builds is people will say "look at all these skill counters you can take against that type of build." This does not make it balanced.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 11, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz L Dazzle

I see the conditions build equally as problematic, giving me build wars type examples such as take RC and draw doesn't exactly make me feel better. I shouldn't be forced to take RC/draw in order to win games. If its in a tournament and the other team purely runs an overload build i should know the viable counters to bring to win verse them, but in ladder matches or verse unknown opponents i won't have this knowledge.

I could make the same argument about hex builds becoming meta. Then your monk could just go Divert hexes and take a midline convert instead of draw. Hexes however are only viable in overloads because of their design, moreso than conditions, not without a few notable expceptions. (diversion , shame, a few water hexes)

Part of the problem with overload style builds is people will say "look at all these skill counters you can take against that type of build." This does not make it balanced.

Well, the thing is that the counters against condition pressure builds are much more universal than counters to most things, as almost every build uses conditions. RC is an amazingly useful skill that just gets better with more conditions, and draw can be used very well to save characters and keep warriors clean. Or you could just bring extinguish in an ele (GoLe should be able to power it enough to take a lot of pressure off) or have your ranger do some mend touching.

Condition pressure also takes some skill to play, as it relies very heavily on your rangers' abilities to disrupt, play defensively and offensively and know when to switch, and to split.

Of course, noone will ever play condition pressure until DA/Shield up is nerfed.

Lorekeeper · Oct 11, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

well this discussion does strike to the very heart of the problem. On the one hand condition/hex/physical overload builds are designed to do just that, to overload an enemies defensive utility while at the same time disabling its offense.

while spreading conditions or hexes or spamming spears are all equally as degenerately easy activities, unfortunately the way GW PvP is presented, builds which overload in this way are incredibly effective as long as your enemy is not built to counter it.

what im basically saying is, its build wars. The GW meta has been a build war meta for as long as i can remember. Its an unfortunate side effect of power creep and the continual addition of new classes and new skills into the game.

imagine if chess players were given the ability to choose what 16 pieces they could put onto the table. And imagine if every year a new piece with new movement rules was introduced. Chess would become piece wars, matches would basically be decided on what pieces you decided to bring.

it would be perfectly possible for particularly experienced chess players to choose a highly flexible combination of pieces which would be able to deal with the vast majority of possible combinations that player would have to face. But as more and more pieces are added into the game, as more and more possible strategies are added, it becomes increasingly difficult for anyone to design a 16 piece build that could hope to counter them all.

this is how GW works.

great guilds can play purely ''balanced builds'' and trust their skill and tactics to allow them to counter everything they face.

it was wrongly believed that the blockway balanced builds were of this sort. It turns out they are not, because they are weak to either heavy condition or heavy hex builds. Its simply not possible to cater a build towards countering hex and condition overload builds without severely gimping a builds offense.

if we cannot design a balanced build capable of adapting to the vast number of possible builds we are then forced to think about split builds. The smaller the number of characters involved in a fight, the easier it is to create favourable circumstances and points of weakness. If you face a hex build you can force the hex build to split its anti-melee hexes, in which case hopefully the side which lacks the anti-melee hex support might collapse to some melee pressure. Unfortunately against condition builds splitting is less easy because generally they are made up of highly splittable characters.

even if splitting was an attractive play against these types of builds, theres another stumbling block...

the addition of LoD into the game has allowed the flagger builds have become increasingly more effective at keeping split teams and NPCs alive. It might take several long and intense attempts by a split team to crack a defensive split made up of SoR or SoD or WoR flaggers. Unfortunately the new 18min vod doesnt give teams enough time to try this. Someone will have to design a split build that could easily defeat the average flagger build in order to play the splitting game to its full potential. (perhaps with corrupt enchant necros or AR+SA assassins).

The only solution i see is to provide monks and midliners access to much wider forms of utility.

heal monks need more effective single target and multiple target heals, removal options need to provide utility outside their ability to remove hexes or conditions in case you do not fight a hex or condition team, and prot monks need more active prots that can protect multiple allies. Aegis is not a good example of what is needed. A short duration area wide dmg reduction enchant is perhaps needed. A short duration area wide health regeneration enchantment too.

as it stands, monks just cannot hope to handle the vast amount of threats out there. Spec divert hexes to defeat a hex team and lose to conditions. Spec RC and lose to hexes and heavy physical pressure.

i think there are two ways to give teams the ability to tackle this build wars aspect of guild wars.

1. buff monks to be able to deal with it all
2. extend time of VoD back to 20 or even 25 minutes.

but im really not sure to be honest.

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 12, 2007, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Condition pressure is viable in the meta. People overload with Smoke trapper, Me/N taint, Crip apply and 2 crip slash warriors. The trapper discourages ward camping and the wipespread condtions make it difficult for backlines to handle because LoD is so vulnerable verse this build. The Me/N will humility the LoD and viola the condi-build will win as long of the humility guy avoids interrupts with cancels and asking for SoD b4 casts. The ranger doesn't exactly have a difficult job in that build as wards aren't viable, he has some easy interrupts and even if he misses with LoD down his team should still be able to crush the other team.

Bowstring Badass · Oct 12, 2007, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz L Dazzle

Condition pressure is viable in the meta. People overload with Smoke trapper, Me/N taint, Crip apply and 2 crip slash warriors. The trapper discourages ward camping and the wipespread condtions make it difficult for backlines to handle because LoD is so vulnerable verse this build. The Me/N will humility the LoD and viola the condi-build will win as long of the humility guy avoids interrupts with cancels and asking for SoD b4 casts. The ranger doesn't exactly have a difficult job in that build as wards aren't viable, he has some easy interrupts and even if he misses with LoD down his team should still be able to crush the other team.

He could just use [skill]mantra of resolve[/skill] or [skill]pious concentration[/skill] (even if you don't have enchantment it works one time then ends).

Riotgear · Oct 12, 2007, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

while spreading conditions or hexes or spamming spears are all equally as degenerately easy activities, unfortunately the way GW PvP is presented, builds which overload in this way are incredibly effective as long as your enemy is not built to counter it.

Most forms of overload got a major boost in Nightfall and the ways to repair the damage haven't improved with them. Right now, most builds are simply physical damage overload, which is mostly the fault of Agonizing Chop, and the ability to slot a Paragon for even more physical damage without sacrificing defensive ability.

The increased defense has mostly been due to GoLE breaking the cost mechanisms that used to keep Aegis and Ward in check.

X Cytherea X · Oct 12, 2007, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

What the hell is going on?

Three pages into this post people are crying about blockway being overpowered.

Now that blockway has an effective counter in Shattering Assault (newsflash: its been around since nightfall was released and seen little-to-no large scale use) people are whining about why Shattering Assault is overpowered.

The Shattering Assault sin is a literal marvel of utility that I'm really surprised hasn't been tapped into until now. Unblockable attack chain, condition self cleaning, enchantment removal.

God forbid you actually have a ranger who can interrupt worth his salt
or someone with at least one enchantment removal for assassin's remedy (hooray, blinds work!)
or some sort of split tactics
or (here's a new idea) kill the sin?

Get over it, the metagame adapts to counter dominant builds; not everything is invincible forever. SA Sins aren't degenerate, and they can be beaten: just not with the tools that everyone is so used to running right now!

It's a counter build, and it will be around for only as long as people care to run blockway.

No wonder the devs have such a hard time balancing this game; they're damned if they do, damned if they don't!

quoted for truth.

Shmanka · Oct 12, 2007, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz L Dazzle

Overload hex and condition teams are as degenerate and lack skill as much as teams overloading on block or spike.

Which is why I want Signet of Humility changed to this:

-3 Seconds in length across all levels and 2s activation.

This would make it more of a mesmer "Bull's Strike" instead of "I will camp the only elite you can use to stop our build"

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 12, 2007, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Signet of Humility is fine. It only becomes an issue when used on LoD, because of the incredible reliance teams have on LoD. If effective supplements to LoD existed, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Overload condition teams are also fine at the moment. Those builds actually start to feel pretty weak with effective shutdown on the trapper. He provides a lot of the offense and defense, so shutting him down means the build takes a while to break your team. You can use that time to capitalize on their weak defense. Of course, you can bring a set of hard counters too, but it's not like you can't win without them.

Vaga · Oct 12, 2007, 07:30 AM // 07:30

With that bsurge buff to hitting adjacent foes when your attacking, i'd favor this if it had a higher recharge. You can't really even keep up with blind anymore without spamming diversion on the guy and it should really go back to it's best use being spike prevention rather than stopping pressure.

Also Robo the SA sin bar has more than 1 skill, if you look at the bar you'll notice that they were buffed last patch which made it viable.