Curse

DIH49 · Oct 10, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The question here is whether SA sins are too good at what they do. I would argue that yes, they are, but that hitting Assassin's remedy would reduce their power enough to make the character balanced with other forms of offense.

I am not convinced that this is true. SA sins have some decent power, but they really only become supercharged against teams that use only block for defense. The advantage of the sins is balanced, at least in theory and somewhat in practice, by the fact that you're sticking a highly predictable 70AL target in my backlines. Since, as you mention yourself, the midline is packed with offense there's really nothing the team can do to prevent me riding all over the sins and monks. While I certainly wouldn't claim the existence of this tactic proves anything one way or the other about SA sins, it does leave some serious room for doubt about just how powerful they are.

Seamus Finn · Oct 10, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

I am a personal fan of the assasin split SA runs, it reminds me of how splits should be done. Although simple positionary tactics (which people lack) is a huge counter to the build, not the only one but very effective. It's a back to basics build which is the best thing about it.

We have been discussing Shattering Assault(SA) sins not Sylvan Avenger's(SA) 5-3 split sins.

yum · Oct 10, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

I think people just look at the SA bar and forget about the fact that the bar is for assasins: the class with only 70 AL. Not to mention that assasin's combos are very predictable, and very prone to interupting.

If the idea of somewhat unblindable and unblockable applies to warriors or paragons, Ill say that it's overpowered. But to sin, No. I don't know what Anet had in mind when they created assasins, but if anyone looks at assasins in the perspective of warrior's, it is a failure.

Riotgear · Oct 10, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

I wouldn't say SA is particularly prone to interruption, at least on the frontline. Combos are prone to interruption if you're trying to pull some shadowstep-1-2-3-4-5 spike on somebody, but when you're throwing stuff like SA out, it's not like you need to queue an attack skill up for every time you hit, plus you really need d-shot if you want to put a dent in one. I'd rather shoot one with cripshot than savage shot, really.

Seamus Finn · Oct 10, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

I am not convinced that this is true. SA sins have some decent power, but they really only become supercharged against teams that use only block for defense.

They are supercharged against teams that run blocks, blinds,and prots for defense. They are also noteworthy for dealing with characters that use enchantments or stances for offense or utility as well. That is just for the sins bars. Now you have a bunch of midliners to decide what else your build will blow up and be immune to.

The grenth dervs that everyone despised were 70 armor as well as these sins, and nothing stops the team from running their own blockway to block out those d-shots that are supposed to bring balance to what is clearly a degenerate, overpowered bar. If beating blockway was sufficient, wouldn't my suggestion of buffing Shattering Assault so that it punished enchantments harder and was subsequently blockable be a more balanced idea(keeping in mind that nine tails would have at least a recharge buff to match the others in the unblockable chain)? Unblockable/unblindable combined with unprotable in 4 skills on the same bar of a melee is a severely broken idea; it just is.

Symbol · Oct 11, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

I actually wouldn't mind if Shattering Assault was blockable but had +5...50 bonus damage (like every other attack skill) instead of the (stupid) way it is now.

yum · Oct 11, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

They are supercharged against teams that run blocks, blinds,and prots for defense. They are also noteworthy for dealing with characters that use enchantments or stances for offense or utility as well. That is just for the sins bars. Now you have a bunch of midliners to decide what else your build will blow up and be immune to.

The grenth dervs that everyone despised were 70 armor as well as these sins, and nothing stops the team from running their own blockway to block out those d-shots that are supposed to bring balance to what is clearly a degenerate, overpowered bar. If beating blockway was sufficient, wouldn't my suggestion of buffing Shattering Assault so that it punished enchantments harder and was subsequently blockable be a more balanced idea(keeping in mind that nine tails would have at least a recharge buff to match the others in the unblockable chain)? Unblockable/unblindable combined with unprotable in 4 skills on the same bar of a melee is a severely broken idea; it just is.

The thing is everyone runs blockway. Run something else plz. Hexes, for example, will pawn the sins, or even blurr version from the runner would cause huge problem.
Or just run the same SA sins team build, if everyone can run blockway, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't change. Blockway is boring as hell.
Beside, your idea of buffing the punishment for enchant removal but remove the unblockable attribute is like making wild strike cancel stance but blockable.
Aren't you tired of blocking? I personally prefer offensive gameplay from both teams.

Quote:

I actually wouldn't mind if Shattering Assault was blockable but had +5...50 bonus damage

That would make the skill overpowered...

Seamus Finn · Oct 11, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13

[QUOTE=yum]The thing is everyone runs blockway. Run something else plz. Hexes, for example, will pawn the sins, or even blurr version from the runner would cause huge problem.
Or just run the same SA sins team build, if everyone can run blockway, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't change. Blockway is boring as hell.
Beside, your idea of buffing the punishment for enchant removal but remove the unblockable attribute is like making wild strike cancel stance but blockable.
Aren't you tired of blocking? I personally prefer offensive gameplay from both teams.
[QUOTE]

I prefer a game where good players make good plays with versatile bars. Sad as it may be, most of the block builds require more skill. Also your equation of my suggestion to the old wild strike is quite misguided. Most enchantments do not have a blocking effect. There are 3 that I can think of that do: Guardian,Aegis, and Shield of Deflection. And so in 90% of the cases where I would want to hit someone with wild strike the stance I want to remove blocks me, the percentage is nowhere near that ballpark for enchantments that are worth stripping. As I have said before, your melee is already bypassing monks. That frees up entire characters that just have to deal with what your sins can't and maybe add some damage in there. So it wouldn't be hard to deal with hexes if they became a problem for the sin builds since the shutdown is so compact. Blurred vision? Meet holy veil. Most teams have 3 of them. The suggestion to run hexes instead of blockway is really just sad. The game somewhat balanced right now, and with some more tinkering could be fun on top of it. To let these come in and blow up the meta to bring back the crap that players were complaining about months ago is clearly a step in the wrong direction.

Vaga · Oct 11, 2007, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Is this the only meta you have ever played in or something? It's so dull that it's not even funny. Sure it's balanced since everyone runs the same build, but everyone used to run the KGYU build and that was so much more fun.

Why don't you just run a water ele or cripshot or trapper or ward foes. Pretty simple counters that work against warriors + SA sins. It's only because teams can't keep up with the speed that you can spam blind that it's even used to stop pressure, in the past people relied a lot more on snares.

Symbol · Oct 11, 2007, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

That would make the skill overpowered...

What are you talking about? Marginally more damage than death blossom and enchant removal at the cost of 10e and your elite slot. How is that overpowered?

yum · Oct 11, 2007, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Well, if they run the craps, as you wrote, months ago, there are existing counters.

Beside, people want variety, not a rigid blockway. Imo, if you don't get rid of the old one, you will never come up with the better.

You so idolize blockway because of its uber defensive ability that anything that can penetrate system becomes gimmick. But in fact, SA isn't that overpwered against blockway. If you are that good, you should have no problem with it.

Moreover, even if the blockway requires skill to play, it is not very entertaining playing it over and over again. I'd rather play CS.

Quote:

What are you talking about? Marginally more damage than death blossom and enchant removal at the cost of 10e and your elite slot? How is that overpowered?

removing 2 enchants+unblockable with damage near that of a full functioned Blade of Steel. How is that not overpowered? I know the damage is uber against caster; but with higher AL, the damage is just crap. If they change it to the way you want, it will to be much for any character not just caster.

Symbol · Oct 11, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

What part of "was blockable" do you not understand?

yum · Oct 11, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Srry... my bad. Anyway, if the skill become blockable, i'd rather run shockaxe.

Seamus Finn said that only certain enchantments provided block. True, but almost all of them are popular. It is like saying that paragon is not overpowered because we have vocal minority, since that skill is too specialized.

According to your version, to remove an enchantment I must overcome blockade which is ,90% of the time, provided by the enchantment I want to removed. Don't you feel that a bit paradoxical?

In that case, I'd rather run a version w/o enchant removal but unblockable and with +10.. 75 damage. It's an elite with 10 energy anyway.

Symbol · Oct 11, 2007, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Well, no.

First of all there are plenty of important enchants that don't provide block that you want to remove.

Spirit bond, prot spirit, SoA, shielding hands, conjures, SoR, attunements, ...you get the picture.

Furthermore with 50% block you still have a 75% chance of connecting and removing that guardian or aegis. With 75% block you still have a 44% chance of connecting and removing that SoD. Those are pretty decent odds all things considered, given that the skill is already doing a hell of a lot of damage pressure and removing enchants.

What making it blockable does is put some pressure on the sin's energy (which is already pretty tight) and prevent you from training a target until it explodes.

It also makes it more viable to slot this character into a build without tailoring your whole team to support it...since the skill itself becomes more robust.

Quote:

In that case, I'd rather run a version w/o enchant removal but unblockable and with +10.. 75 damage. It's an elite with 10 energy anyway.
yum is online now Report Bad Post

+150 unblockable armor ignoring damage on a 4s recharge...are you serious?

Seamus Finn · Oct 11, 2007, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

According to your version, to remove an enchantment I must overcome blockade which is ,90% of the time, provided by the enchantment I want to removed. Don't you feel that a bit paradoxical?

In that case, I'd rather run a version w/o enchant removal but unblockable and with +10.. 75 damage. It's an elite with 10 energy anyway.

Then run nine tails(with a buffd recharge). That is exactly what I want to happen. If people want to run sins that completely bypass "blockway"(which I in no way idolize as some posters suggested I do and do not run the build in the current meta), then that is fine for me, as long as monks are allowed to prot the unblockable sins. That has been my biggest problem with them from the outset.

I have played in a lot of metas, by teh way, and the past few(derv train, hexes, and now block party) have been the worst. But the sins will just start the cycle again and we will see derv train(with sins where the dervs used to be)and hexes. So your cherished KGYU era will most likely NOT be a valid part of the meta.

Also,your suggested counters were laughable enough since I can run a stand draw(very common in the sins builds in particular) and the cripshot is worthless. I believe hex eater has pushed water eles off of the flagstand a while ago and hex eater has not lost its popularity.

Also, for the damage buff. I would probably make is conditional on removing an enchantment. Give it decent base + damage and then some bonus damage for removing enchants. You can have a a dual that is ok if not meeting req, great if it does, and a very nice utility attached. Again, a melee that is unblockable AND unprottable is recipe for disaster; hopefully, repitition is key...

yum · Oct 11, 2007, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

+150 unblockable armor ignoring damage on a 4s recharge...are you serious?

actually no. The current version damage of SA is not armor ignoring damage. What I said is +75 damage, not 75 damage.

Beside all the enchantments you mention are well protected, if not too well. Furthermore, all your have to do to badly nerf the damage output of SA is some +24 armor shout like "Watch yourself" not really SB, PS, SH. That's why I don't run 2 SA sins. And if your team can handle SA in 8v8 scenario, just split. W/o proper supports, SA is not really an issue.

Well, if the nerf bat hits SA,It's a shame.

BTW, if they really buff 9 tails to 4s recharge. I would run:
Dark Apostasy, GFS,WS, 9tails, Crit eye, Assasin remedy or Sight Beyond Sight+rez sig with a Go for the Eyes paragon. 1 slot left, maybe I don't even need crit eye, which leaves me 2 slots. That bar is even crazier.

Master Ketsu · Oct 11, 2007, 03:27 AM // 03:27

People need to start learning the differance between a skill thats overpowered and a skill thats good in the current meta. SA is a balanced decent enchant removal at the cost of an elite Shadow step or mobius pressure - which is a big cost. Its a great skill now because so many teams are using mainly blocks for their defense. Take advantage of the fact that the sin generally loses their ability to SS efectively or spam duals by using movement debuffs on them like cripshot, and focus less on moron blocking, and they will cycle out of the meta.

And dont give me this crap about "Well they can just heal the cripple or remove the hex" Right at 10e with Recharge 1 and a cover condition rigghht.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 11, 2007, 03:50 AM // 03:50

A dual attack that removes enchantments while being blockable is terrible with the current skill balances. It doesn't really matter how many theoretical Spirit Bonds or SoAs you might pull, because SoD is going to be up on the target long before your dual goes off. That's assuming you disable the rest of the blocking skills the enemy team is using.

If you really want to hit the SA combo, you need to hit the recharge or energy cost. That character is crap if he can't do his combo regularly.

Symbol · Oct 11, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

A dual attack that removes enchantments while being blockable is terrible with the current skill balances. It doesn't really matter how many theoretical Spirit Bonds or SoAs you might pull, because SoD is going to be up on the target long before your dual goes off. That's assuming you disable the rest of the blocking skills the enemy team is using.

If you're forcing them to put up SoD every time you combo (which is every 5 or so seconds), isn't that a good thing already?

moriz · Oct 11, 2007, 03:56 AM // 03:56

considering that you'll want to park a smiter on the sin for the aoe damage, any conditions will be dealt by the constant draw conditions. which btw, can be kept up far longer than cripshot.

as for the +75 damage... that portion of the damage is always armor ignoring. so if you buff it to +75 damage, that will result in +150 damage that's armor ignoring.