Curse

Hyper Cutter · Oct 08, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Salvation X

Touchers. Make all touch skills into spells and maybe increase recharge time or activation.

Why? Touch rangers are nothing but an annoyance...

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 08, 2007, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Does shattering remove prots before they proc?

No, but as a dual attack, it does hit twice. So the second hit won't be affected by anything the first enchantment removes.

I don't think the build would be that crazy if it weren't for assassin's remedy, which does remove blinds before an attack hits. Thinking about it, that's almost certainly unintentional.

yum · Oct 08, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

No, but as a dual attack, it does hit twice. So the second hit won't be affected by anything the first enchantment removes.

I don't think the build would be that crazy if it weren't for assassin's remedy, which does remove blinds before an attack hits. Thinking about it, that's almost certainly unintentional.

Well, even w/o assasin remedy they can still run Sight beyond sight (8s at 0 SP yay

). Remedy is fine as it is. If they revert it back to "remove only if hit", the skill is pretty crap imo.
My bar would be: siphon speed, GFS, WS, SA, SBS, impale or augury(prefer augury), rez sig, crit eye <= pretty insane.

Shendaar · Oct 08, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

It is intentional because it used to not remove it before. I think it was "fixed" in a stealth update or something, I can't remember. To be honest, I think it is fine as the skill was complete trash before.

Riotgear · Oct 08, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

IMO if something is so stupid that people mistake it for a bug, it should probably be revised.

Symbol · Oct 09, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Well it's working as intended now. I think it would be ok if the removal happened after it checked if the attack hits, but IMO it needs a slight buff if that happened since blind immunity is the main thing it has going for it--the mechanic is pretty awkward in general.

Something like 5 1/4s 15r wouldn't be out of line IMO.

twicky_kid · Oct 09, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

If you mean what's first, damage or enchant removal then no. For example, if you have RoF on you and get hit by SA, RoF activates, meaning SA hits first, removes enchant second.

2 phases of a skill

Activation
Skill description

Usually it works in the order of the skill description.

In the case of SA, dmg>enchant removal.

Thomas.knbk · Oct 09, 2007, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I don't think the build would be that crazy if it weren't for assassin's remedy, which does remove blinds before an attack hits. Thinking about it, that's almost certainly unintentional.

It used to remove after the hit, but they changed it in a stealth update. I'm pretty sure it's intentional.

kitiara · Oct 09, 2007, 02:07 PM // 14:07

I think the crazy part is how it will remove the number of conditions it says in the discription and only when you get a condition. So instead of removing every attack even when you dont have a condition it ONLY starts the counter when your condition making you perma immunity to blind.

Vaga · Oct 09, 2007, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Lol how can you say assassins remedy is the reason why those sins are crazy? If it didn't exist you'd just remove it with draw etc... or focus all your shutdown onto the blind bot since it's not like you need to shutdown sod/aegis/da or anything else.

They're crazy because they're attacks are unblockable and on a short recharge in a meta where healing is terrible so the majority of a builds defense comes from block. They could probably nerf the recharge or + damage and they would be fine it just depends on what they do with passive defense and the power creep that has taken place.

Bankai · Oct 09, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

They're crazy because they're attacks are unblockable and on a short recharge in a meta where healing is terrible so the majority of a builds defense comes from block.

And blind.

They wouldn't be that big of a problem if anti-melee hexes were still alive.

yum · Oct 09, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitiara

I think the crazy part is how it will remove the number of conditions it says in the discription and only when you get a condition. So instead of removing every attack even when you dont have a condition it ONLY starts the counter when your condition making you perma immunity to blind.

What is crazy about that? If you choose to run a build that relies on block and blind, you must face it. Run a e-denial build and the prob is solved. Aren't you bored of blocking?
Beside, that combo needs tons of energy. Try to block him while he's regaing fuel by crit hits, not during his SA. The source of damage is SA not GFS or WS. And the sin nids energy for other things too, you really think that there are only 3 skills on a SA bar?

Symbol · Oct 09, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

I think the crazy part is how it will remove the number of conditions it says in the discription and only when you get a condition. So instead of removing every attack even when you dont have a condition it ONLY starts the counter when your condition making you perma immunity to blind.

Uh, no it doesn't. The counter increments with each attack skill, whether a condition is removed or not.

twicky_kid · Oct 09, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Uh, no it doesn't. The counter increments with each attack skill, whether a condition is removed or not.

This is true tested in Temple.

Burton2000 · Oct 09, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Tried 2 SA sins with fear me on their bars combined with the rest of our old D/N build yesterday and its very big ownage. If the damage and ripping through prots doesnt kill them the fast e denial does.

Dark fury ftw!

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 09, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Understand, the sins bring a lot of weaknesses to the table to make up for being unblockable. Most notably, the fact that their energy isn't particularly good, and that they're a low-AL target who wants to extend into the backline. It's also hard to fit any good anti-kiting onto their bar, which leads to them getting run around a lot unless they're training one target. You can make up for these things with effective pushing and prot, but it's not as if the build is destroying your team in the first 10 seconds without midline support.

The main reason I suggest hitting Assassin's Remedy is because it forces the sin team's midline to play disruptively instead of offensively. Right now, you can pack your midline to the eyes with offense, secure in the knowledge that your sins won't need cleaning beyond the odd hex removal. What disruption you do bring goes straight to shutting down the enemy's direct healing - without any midline defense to worry about, almost every D-shot or Humil gets to be aimed at LoD.

When we played Rawr yesterday, they were devoting almost all their enchantment removal to the sins, trying to strip Remedy. Most the time they would just get an Aegis or a Taint, but when Remedy did go down and we had to pull blinds, the pressure was much weaker. If the sins were blindable, they'd have to run with more balanced midlines which would weaken their offense. I don't think a nerf is needed beyond that.

Seamus Finn · Oct 09, 2007, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

What is crazy about that? If you choose to run a build that relies on block and blind, you must face it. Run a e-denial build and the prob is solved. Aren't you bored of blocking?

A statement that would have sounded like 'Grenth isn't the problem, nerf sight beyond sight' months ago. It makes equally less sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Understand, the sins bring a lot of weaknesses to the table to make up for being unblockable. Most notably, the fact that their energy isn't particularly good, and that they're a low-AL target who wants to extend into the backline. It's also hard to fit any good anti-kiting onto their bar, which leads to them getting run around a lot unless they're training one target. You can make up for these things with effective pushing and prot, but it's not as if the build is destroying your team in the first 10 seconds without midline support.

The main reason I suggest hitting Assassin's Remedy is because it forces the sin team's midline to play disruptively instead of offensively. Right now, you can pack your midline to the eyes with offense, secure in the knowledge that your sins won't need cleaning beyond the odd hex removal. What disruption you do bring goes straight to shutting down the enemy's direct healing - without any midline defense to worry about, almost every D-shot or Humil gets to be aimed at LoD.

The sins have 3 slots for whatever utility they want. I have seen soldier's defense on these sins pretty often, letting them push as far as their paragons would allow(which is basically wherever they want), without fear of linebacking or warrior pressure in just about any form. The statement about the monks makes little sense to be honest. The sins already bypass the monks, and the remedy allows them immunity for the last line of defense most teams run. Hitting remedy just means you have a humil for the bsurge or run sight. But what good is LoD when the two sins converging = dead target? The sins pretty compactly shut down the basis for any teams defense. Then it is a question of where the last 3 slots and some leftover character slots are going to do to make sure the sins can drain and train.

twicky_kid · Oct 09, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

The sins have 3 slots for whatever utility they want. I have seen soldier's defense on these sins pretty often, letting them push as far as their paragons would allow(which is basically wherever they want), without fear of linebacking or warrior pressure in just about any form. The statement about the monks makes little sense to be honest. The sins already bypass the monks, and the remedy allows them immunity for the last line of defense most teams run.

That's true until a Derv or other sin hits with Wild blow/strike. 2 SA sins are pretty bad. 2 wars and a 1 sin is where its at as far as effectiveness. Personally I've had no energy problems on the sin. A good pause between combos is more than enough to keep your energy up all the time.

Hex shut down, heavy paragon dmg, ward vs melee, enchant removal and all the other usual stuff shut down the SA sin. Diversion is really a killer though. If any attack skill gets hit your entire chain is down for almost 1 minute. Give the meta time to respond before we just nerf it.

yum · Oct 09, 2007, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

A statement that would have sounded like 'Grenth isn't the problem, nerf sight beyond sight' months ago. It makes equally less sense.

No, It is a suggestion to run something different rather than blockway. Beside, when did I write something close "... nerf sight beyond sight?"
The combo is nowhere near Grenth with things like Shield Up around and the fragility of assasin's offensive combo: 1 of the atk skill is shut down and the sin is done.

VexedLucifer · Oct 09, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

LoD (gasp!) - reduce range to earshot (like aegis)

Lol Nerf LoD? That's so stupid only a Spiritwayer would suggest that, considering that LoD is the basic backbone of balanced. Which means you probably think it's overpowered since you run spiritway. Or you could just be trying to screw over balanced and in that case Anet should want to hire you.

-Vexed Lucifer (keep your e-penis titles out of this!)