Curse

Symbol · Oct 08, 2007, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Shattering is too expensive to combo that often. You need zealous, 13 CS, and crit eye to make it work, and 16 DM to make the damage attractive, unless you have another character buffing you up with SoH/JI.

Shattering's damage is also affected by armor, so it really starts to go south once you're hitting anyone above 60 AL, which is pretty much everyone nowadays.

I like the skill, but it's just one of those things that you have to jump through a lot of hoops to make work, and I haven't obsed people running it successfully. The Japanese guilds experiment with it every once in a while, but that's it.

Riotgear · Oct 08, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

You could have said the same thing about Grenth, really, Grenth wasn't exactly a damage powerhouse but it doesn't matter when you can't prot. I saw one team running 5 Assassins roll some 20-ish team because there isn't really much you can do when someone's getting beat on by 2-3 copies of Blades of Steel on the tail end of a combo, 2 copies of Shattering Assault, 5 copies of Impale, and one of them has Corrupt in case you sneak another prot in. Wouldn't be surprised if they were running Assassin's Remedy too.

That's really why Shattering is better than Assault Enchantments, because you're busy burning prot off while you're hammering them, not firing it off after your dual gets eaten by Spirit Bond, SoD, Guardian, Aegis, or whatever. Whatever damage is lost by the fact that it doesn't go through armor is probably made up for by the fact that it does go through everything else.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 08, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

There have been several versions of the Shattering Assault build going around the top 100 this week. iQ's had dual paragons and a splinter/judges rit to give mass pressure + AoE. Some variations have mass snares/disruption, others have degen, ect. Everyone has their own version.

Symbol · Oct 08, 2007, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

There have been several versions of the Shattering Assault build going around the top 100 this week. iQ's had dual paragons and a splinter/judges rit to give mass pressure + AoE. Some variations have mass snares/disruption, others have degen, ect. Everyone has their own version.

Really? I seem to have a talent for missing all the interesting stuff. Oh well.

Riotgear · Oct 08, 2007, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Yeah I know, my concern though is that while the SA builds are largely designed to exploit the current meta's dependence on SoR/SoD/Aegis, the fact that they're able to train targets through all of that is worrying. It raises the question of what you DO counter something like that with, and if the list of counters is short, then it becomes increasingly easy to cover for the weaknesses. The fact that it's a pretty recent arrival also means the chances of it getting addressed in the next update are almost zero, so if it's going to grow into a problem, it's going to be a problem for the next few months.

Vaga · Oct 08, 2007, 03:54 AM // 03:54

That's the thing there really aren't any real viable counters other than healing through it and we all know how good healing is.

Shendaar · Oct 08, 2007, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Hexes appear to be the only viable counter. Diversion works but if you need your mesmer to focus on their front line the entire match just so you don't get killed, chances are that you won't kill anything and lose anyway.

Splitting is another option. Bottom line is that there isn't a lot of counters to them.

Bankai · Oct 08, 2007, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Hammer backlining also seems quite possible.

KlutzySpy · Oct 08, 2007, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriyabran

angorodon's gaze reduce energy gained back
mor definetely needs a nerf
i don't like the fact the mesmer use wards better in recharge AND cast aspect either
i like the idea about melandru dervs

opposite, make it cheaper to cast or gain 21 energy at 16blood.. this whole skill smells like energy managment, make it worthwhile.. or else its just like any other skill

Yue · Oct 08, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Pretty sure we rolled a guild in the AT once by running 5 sins, all with recall/AoD, with one being an SA. SA+ another sin pretty much trained the frontline until it died. Eventually the monks get burned out.

Master Ketsu · Oct 08, 2007, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by KlutzySpy

opposite, make it cheaper to cast or gain 21 energy at 16blood.. this whole skill smells like energy managment, make it worthwhile.. or else its just like any other skill

Joke ?

12 characters.

Yichi · Oct 08, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

Splitting is another option. Bottom line is that there isn't a lot of counters to them.

Depending on which version of the SA sin build is ran, they can effectively roll your split as well or effectively split on you if its say a hex build or any build that cannot split very effectively.

Guiding hands dervish spike is also effective at providing the same benefits of being unblockable as the SA sins doo. It is a very effective build at exploiting the meta's reliance of huge defense and turtling until vod.

kitiara · Oct 08, 2007, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Assault Enchantments is terrible compared to Shattering. The enchantment removal part of Shattering is really just a bonus that removes Spirit Bond/SoA. The thing that makes a Shattering sin scary is that it's an unblockable, unblindable, unprottable combo with a 4 second recharge. You could get rid of the enchantment removal on that bar entirely and it would still be a perfectly viable way to kill people, though somewhat less effective at training a single target.

While forcing block out of the meta is attractive right now, making the sins unblindable via Assassin's remedy feels too good. Change the way Remedy works and give the Shatter combo a 6-8s recharge, and the build will go from "unfair" to just decent.

Dont nerf the whole combos recharge, just the shattering assault. If you nerf the whole combos recharge it will likely be back to warriors and dervs.

Your right about remedy change it to only remove a condition if you hit or something that isnt "HEY IR IMMUNIZED TO BLIND LOL".

Seamus Finn · Oct 08, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Guiding hands dervish spike is also effective at providing the same benefits of being unblockable as the SA sins doo. It is a very effective build at exploiting the meta's reliance of huge defense and turtling until vod.

Guiding hands I believe is on a 20 sec recharge for a few hits. They really aren't that comparable. One is an enchantment for spiking, the other is building around a new unblockable grenth dervish. The only stand counters available tend to be dependant on the manner that the sin team decides not to support the sins. Some sins have remedy, so blind is out, some have soldier's defense, so linebacking is out. These builds are basically builts around supporting the mechanic of the sins, which leads me to believe it is on the overpowered side. Even if the meta wasn't block party, would these sins really be any less effective? Not really since just about all defenses have always had a source of block as well as defensive enchantments.

kvndoom · Oct 08, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by KlutzySpy

opposite, make it cheaper to cast or gain 21 energy at 16blood.. this whole skill smells like energy managment, make it worthwhile.. or else its just like any other skill

Yeah, make it cost only 5 energy while we're at it. It's already free, but that's not good enough. It should net at minimum 10 energy per second because of the strain of having to take Necro as your secondary.

Shendaar · Oct 08, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Depending on which version of the SA sin build is ran, they can effectively roll your split as well or effectively split on you if its say a hex build or any build that cannot split very effectively.

Guiding hands dervish spike is also effective at providing the same benefits of being unblockable as the SA sins doo. It is a very effective build at exploiting the meta's reliance of huge defense and turtling until vod.

Depends on what you run on your split and which utility skills the SA sins bring. While not as reliable at the stand, SP sins will beat SA sins on a split more often that not.

X Salvation X · Oct 08, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Touchers. Make all touch skills into spells and maybe increase recharge time or activation.

zalxixmavon · Oct 08, 2007, 08:19 PM // 20:19

ok so my revised list (buffs and nerfs):

All skills 0...12

Agonizing Chop - 5 adr, +1...7 damage.
Critical Chop - 6 recharge, +1...7 damage.
Keen Chop - 4 adr, If this attack hits, for 1...4 seconds your attacks have a 3...18% additional chance of being a critical hit.
Auspicious Blow - 6 adr
Forceful Blow - +2...36 damage, remove the blocking clause.
Warrior's Endurance - Change type to skill. 3...15 seconds.
Hamstring - 8 recharge.
Hundred Blades - 1/2 activation.
None Shall Pass - 25-30 recharge.
Soldiers Stance - 4...12 seconds.
Coward - 2 second kd.

Strike As One - +6...12 damage.
Magebane Shot - Can not be blocked.

Divine Intervention - 20-25 recharge.
Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight - 5e, 3c, 25r
Release Enchantments - 3/4c, 10r, 8...31 heal per enchantment.
Light of Deliverance - 7 recharge.
Dwayna's Sorrow - For 20 seconds, target ally and all nearby allies are enchanted with Dwayna's Sorrow. When Dwayna's Sorrow ends all nearby allies are healed 0...2 health for each second Dwayna's Sorrow was in efffect. If an ally dies while under the effects of Dwayna's Sorrow, your party is healed instead.
Smite Hex- 5e, 2c, 5r

Mirror of Disenchantment - affects target ally and 1...7 party members.
Signet of Weariness - 3c, 25r
Mantra of Recovery -
Ancestor's/Sympathetic Visage - 5e, 2c, 25r, 2...10 seconds.
Feedback - 5e, 2r, 20r, 3...7 energy loss.
Mantra of Concentration - 5e, 15r, 0...36 seconds.
Inspired/Revealed Enchantment - 2...14 energy.
Lyssa's Balance - 12 recharge.

Glyph of Lesser Energy - 8...16 cost reduction.

Song of Restoration - 12 recharge.
Ballad of Restoration - 15 recharge.
Aggressive Refrain - some sort of energy penalty seems in order or maybe the -armor thing.
Leadership could be 1 energy+1 for each affected (max leadership/3)

Avatar of Melandru - Removes a condition on skill use.
Wearying Strike - +2...18 damage.
Heart of Fury - 10e, 1c, 20r, 4...13 seconds.
Harrier's Haste - 12 recharge, 1...9 seconds +3...12 damage.
Intimidating Aura - +50 maximum health.

Deadly Paradox - 33% cast and recharge reduction.
Iron Palm - 5e, 1c, 12r
Entangling Asp - 5e, 2c, 12r
Disrupting Stab - 8 recharge.
Jungle Strike - 8 recharge.
Caltrops - 5 energy

Agony/Rejuventation - 10e, 2c, 20r
Sundering Weapon - 10e, 3/4c, 12r, 1...4 seconds, affects all attacks.
Spiritleech Aura - Whenever you use a *skill*, steal 6...30.

Andorogon's Gaze - 10e, 1c, 8r, 8...56 damage, 7 energy gain.
Foul Feast - 8 recharge.
Strip Enchantment - 5 energy
Envenom Enchantments - 15 recharge.

Symbol · Oct 08, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Does shattering remove prots before they proc?

BlackSephir · Oct 08, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

If you mean what's first, damage or enchant removal then no. For example, if you have RoF on you and get hit by SA, RoF activates, meaning SA hits first, removes enchant second.