Curse

Stranger The Ranger · Oct 04, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by revaer

It would still need a shorter duration or longer recharge. Preferably both.

Or give it a 2 second casting time or something... Deadly Paradox is a cool skill, it's a shame it'll recieve a big nerf next update but I do think those Assa-casters are getting very annoying...

Shadow Prison doesnt need a nerf imo, I hate to say it, but I think the energy gain of Black Lotus Strike needs to be toned down.
I also dont get the problem with Siphon Speed, its a great skill for keeping those annoying Wammo's from gang-raping your brains out =.=

bungusmaximus · Oct 04, 2007, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stranger The Ranger

Or give it a 2 second casting time or something... Deadly Paradox is a cool skill, it's a shame it'll recieve a big nerf next update but I do think those Assa-casters are getting very annoying...

Shadow Prison doesnt need a nerf imo, I hate to say it, but I think the energy gain of Black Lotus Strike needs to be toned down.
I also dont get the problem with Siphon Speed, its a great skill for keeping those annoying Wammo's from gang-raping you brains out =.=

Hmm they should never have invented stuff like teleports, it's really retarded imho. All we know about clever positioning can be thrown overboard because people will simply jump over your lines of defense. Now that it's already in the game I really wouldn't know what to do about it though, I heard a half range option that I liked, but a LOT of people will be pissed off if they implement that :P.

offtopic: cool avatar, all hail Aphex Twin ^^

Keithark · Oct 04, 2007, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

having counters is a poor excuse, simply because the counters are far to specific and becomes useless if you don't meet a paragon. yes, you can take well of silence and vocal minority, but what happens if you don't meet a paragon? you've just wasted your precious skill slots on something that's not even there.

Having counters is the best excuse for anythign when talking about nerfing. It is not my fault if you don't meet a Paragon, but how is that different from not meeting a warrior? What happens if you go against a b-spike team? now you have wasted slots all over the effing place. Paragons don't need a nerf...in fact nothing needs a nerf the game is fairly balanced at this point...well maybe get rid of the dancing dagger sins but other than that GG A-Net

Thomas.knbk · Oct 04, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

I'm much in favor of nerfing Light of Deliverance.

LoD pretty much frees up a character, and people decided to use that character for gay block shit.

I think taking away LoD takes away a lot of issues. People would be forced to take other party healing options again, which means less wards/DA/Bsurge whatever they decide to drop for it.

Discuss

glountz · Oct 04, 2007, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I'm much in favor of nerfing Light of Deliverance.

LoD pretty much frees up a character, and people decided to use that character for gay block shit.

I think taking away LoD takes away a lot of issues. People would be forced to take other party healing options again, which means less wards/DA/Bsurge whatever they decide to drop for it.

Discuss

By nerfing LoD you boost Hex/degen teams. Is it bad? I don't know.

Holz · Oct 04, 2007, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I'm much in favor of nerfing Light of Deliverance.

LoD pretty much frees up a character, and people decided to use that character for gay block shit.

I think taking away LoD takes away a lot of issues. People would be forced to take other party healing options again, which means less wards/DA/Bsurge whatever they decide to drop for it.

Discuss

What was the monk backline before LoD?

RhanoctJocosa · Oct 04, 2007, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I'm much in favor of nerfing Light of Deliverance.

LoD pretty much frees up a character, and people decided to use that character for gay block shit.

I think taking away LoD takes away a lot of issues. People would be forced to take other party healing options again, which means less wards/DA/Bsurge whatever they decide to drop for it.

Discuss

QFT. Great point, I agree with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holz

What was the monk backline before LoD?

BL & Boon monks, which I would definately prefer to see being run over SoD/LoD.

moriz · Oct 04, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

Having counters is the best excuse for anythign when talking about nerfing. It is not my fault if you don't meet a Paragon, but how is that different from not meeting a warrior? What happens if you go against a b-spike team? now you have wasted slots all over the effing place. Paragons don't need a nerf...in fact nothing needs a nerf the game is fairly balanced at this point...well maybe get rid of the dancing dagger sins but other than that GG A-Net

the counters to warriors are not specific. they can work against a whole range of characters. vocal minority and well of silence are extremely specific. they do absolutely nothing to non-paragons. there's a pretty big difference. surely even you must realize that.

Master Ketsu · Oct 04, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Stop posting.

Is that a way to disagree with someone ?

Say why you disagree. Think about how useless of a comment that is. Some random n00b tells me to stop posting...why should I care ? Either comment WHY my proposal was a bad idea or at the very least add some sort of substance to your post, otherwise you might as well stop posting yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

make deadly paradox an enchantment? just like deadly haste.
I'm suggesting this to add a counter...I know about wild blow but it's way less common than an enchant removal.

As suggesting under adjust the uptime.

this would actually be more of a buff then a nerf. Its true that it would make it more counterable, but in turn it would mean that DA sins could run around with [skill]dark escape[/skill] and keep it up almost indefinatly. Not good.

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 04, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

You can't understand the skill that has no activation time, is unremovable, and essentially as a passive skill takes one of the most active skill characters out of the game for a significant duration?

O ok.

Colour me skeptical, at 9 tactics duration lasts for 9 seconds with a 50% block rate, yes thats a very significant duration.... Go for it, add a cast time to it, just another thing you'll have to worry about interupting if you want it down.

Captain Robo · Oct 04, 2007, 07:34 PM // 19:34

To the OP: Fantastic balance changes; a great job overall, I really like them.

I've become displaced from GVG in the past couple of months, but I've been keeping up with the meta. The problem with defensive teams can be dealt with as long as you're prepared to metagame effectively and tweak a balanced build to be able to defeat at least 60% of what you expect to face.

Guildwars has always been a Rock-Paper-Scissors type game at anything but the higher levels of competitive play, but that doesn't mean that you're completely screwed when it comes to an unfavorable matchup.

Mesmers with MoR Wards are heavily defensive, but they are not invincible. Wards carry the downside of forcing a team to bunch up in order to avoid melee offense.

This has led to three classic counters that have seen use since the beginning of the game:

1. Splitting
Splitting neuters wards. The downside to wards is that people have to stay in them in order to gain their benefits. Simply fight on the move or force a proactive split, and you reduce the effectiveness of their defense.

2. AoE / Interrupts
Sometimes it's worth it to bring a character that can punish bunched up opponents. Fire elementalists are possible options that can be worked into a build. The tradeoff is a loss of overall utility in favor of damage, but this can work to your advantage if you can effectively punish wards (Fire Eles also kick all the ass at VOD). Alternatively, if you've got a talented ranger or mesmer in your own lineup, they're worth their weight in gold if they can shut down the enemy warder.

3. Trapping
Yeah, now we're really getting old school. A good trapper can wreak all sorts of havoc, especially with access to Smoke Trap. You'd be surprised at the amount of disruption and pure annoyance a trapper can cause. They're not the most utilitarian characters, but I can seriously think of nothing better to mess up enemy wards with. They plant renewable sources of pressure, serious conditions, and when played defensively, can take loads of pressure off their team's back line.

Overall though, great suggestions. I hope the devs are reading.

SleepyLuxon · Oct 04, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

paragons should have never existed. if anet had bothered to properly playtest their product before release, paragons wouldn't have ever made it out of the alpha stages.

the entire concept of the profession is flawed to begin with. a passive party buffer, with warrior-like dps that can fire at range, in a game where it's all about dynamic, active gameplay simply does not fit. what's even worse, is that the paragon's primary attribute actually promotes this kind of degenerate gameplay: sit in the middle of the party and spam your shouts, and you'll get infinite energy. in fact, so much energy that they can afford to spam 15 energy spells on recharge.

having counters is a poor excuse, simply because the counters are far to specific and becomes useless if you don't meet a paragon. yes, you can take well of silence and vocal minority, but what happens if you don't meet a paragon? you've just wasted your precious skill slots on something that's not even there.

GW pvp is not a glorified game of rock-paper-scissors. stop for a moment and think before you stupidly open your mouth.

lastly, i would be all for completely destroying the paragon profession in every way possible, simply because it shouldn't be here in the first place.

Well what about us primary paragon players who by far have been dedicated to a class that has seen nerf after nerf because players play the most effective skills.

Paragons deserve a place in guild wars. Your idea of destroying a class makes you sound like a person who cant reach a compromise.

I do agree on your argument about counters, and Leadership needs tweeking big time.

The class was a beautiful idea but because of how easy it is to chain shouts and even with crazy finales, high armor, solid dps, and people who abused these mechanics the class has seen nerf after nerf.

Symbol · Oct 04, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

I find it funny that people are willing to defend deadly paradox, but want siphon speed nerfed.

Yeah, retarded gimmicks that prevent two whole skill lines from being balanced properly are fine, but versatile utility skills like siphon speed need to go.

Whatever.

Lorekeeper · Oct 04, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by SleepyLuxon

I do agree on your argument about counters, and Leadership needs tweeking big time.

The class was a beautiful idea but because of how easy it is to chain shouts and even with crazy finales, high armor, solid dps, and people who abused these mechanics the class has seen nerf after nerf.

well as long as its agreed that it would be better if SOMETHING was done, then im quite happy.

I too liked the concept of the paragon. My guild at the time and I rushed to see the capabilities of the paragon with much more enthusiasm than we did with the dervish when nightfall came out. Party wide support was pretty rare outside the odd shields up, or when ritualists spirits were incredibly overpowered, or aegis, heal party etc etc.

I just dont think Anet found the right way of implementing the concept, its an unforunate habit of theirs. Paragons do not require such high DPS. Their partywide buffs do not need to be so good or so bad. Incoming was too good, now its too bad. The motivation skills were too good, now they are too bad. Its not the players who are unable to compromise, its Anets inability to strike a happy medium in their treatment of imbalances that has destroyed the class. The term ''ether renewaled'' will forever remain in the memories of the older players as it was, is and will always be a shining example of this.

The paragon could have become so much more than it is now. Its unfortunate we will never see many things in GW reach their true potential.

Keithark · Oct 04, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the counters to warriors are not specific. they can work against a whole range of characters. vocal minority and well of silence are extremely specific. they do absolutely nothing to non-paragons. there's a pretty big difference. surely even you must realize that.

You are right they can work against a paragon..as well as all other sorts of ways to work around paragon defense. see post below (it is from someone who actually uses their brain)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurareVaera

I'm pretty annoyed with all the people calling for monk nerfs, especially LoD. Chances are none of those people are even capable of playing monk, and probably spend their time raging in vent for the mesmer to diversion spam b/surge or LoD. Its even more likely that those people are simply bad at the game, and are too stupid to think of ways to beat the current meta without whining to the developers for skill nerfs. If you don't like wards, DA, Aegis, play golden fox strike, wild strike, shattering assault, impale w/ conjure. If you don't like all the blocking, any amount of time spent on obs mode shows that meta builds lack adequate hex removal. Be Team and vZ roll blockway repeatedly with condi pressure. There are skills available for use already that trump the meta, but you'd rather nerf current builds rather than evolve past the meta by actually using your brain.

Instead of complaining, why don't people actually design their own counters? People bring all the blocking and LoD because physical damage is extremely strong. When I say strong, I don't mean in need of a nerf. E-managment for a 2 monk backline takes skill even in the current meta. It's just appalling that people are calling for more stress in the backline, a position which no one wants to play anyways. If you can't kill things, your team is uncoordinated, poor at adapting to situations in game, and probably clueless as to what your midline needs to do to shutdown blockway. Anyone that has spent time playing GvG competently in the last few months knows exactly what has to get shutdown to win against blockway, so complaining for nerfs just tells everyone that you're bad at the game and should uninstall guild wars or stick to alliance battles / dungeons.

Riotgear · Oct 04, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

The paragon could have become so much more than it is now. Its unfortunate we will never see many things in GW reach their true potential.

Party-wide offensive or support buffs was an interesting concept to build off of, the problem is that stacking party-wide defensive buffs is a slippery slope, which you're currently seeing the bottom of with the current meta. You only need so much defense before you severely damage the offensive capabilities of an enemy team, and being able to throw on layer upon layer of defenses means that it becomes very easy to meet that minimum.

Temporary defensive buffs are conceptually a good idea: Lets your team survive a push, but you have to decide when to use it. The problem of course is that all you need to do is start packing several copies of that and "when to use it" becomes "constantly", which is how Incoming hit its current broken point: It was balanced with one copy, broken with a whole gimmick revolving around it.

Lorekeeper · Oct 04, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Party-wide offensive or support buffs was an interesting concept to build off of, the problem is that stacking party-wide defensive buffs is a slippery slope, which you're currently seeing the bottom of with the current meta. You only need so much defense before you severely damage the offensive capabilities of an enemy team, and being able to throw on layer upon layer of defenses means that it becomes very easy to meet that minimum.

Temporary defensive buffs are conceptually a good idea: Lets your team survive a push, but you have to decide when to use it. The problem of course is that all you need to do is start packing several copies of that and "when to use it" becomes "constantly", which is how Incoming hit its current broken point: It was balanced with one copy, broken with a whole gimmick revolving around it.

is it possible to tackle this dilemna?

im too tired to think atm, otherwise id post some ideas.

zalxixmavon · Oct 04, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Deadly Paradox - Lower % so that deadly/shadow arts skills can be buffed, makes it impossible to balance these lines.
Glyph of Lesser Energy- Also makes it difficult to balance skills. An 8 energy reduction at 0 Energy Storage should be fine.

As for the rest of the meta its hard to fix because as has been said its the stacking of skills not any one skill. Im not sure I like the separate buff/nerf lists so ill link to my other post: here

Riotgear · Oct 04, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

is it possible to tackle this dilemna?

Options:
- Make them significantly less extreme, i.e. not 50% block.
- Ensure that any major party-wide defensive buff is either practically removable, interruptable, or otherwise able to be interfered with.
- Cause party-wide defense buffs to remove other party-wide defense buffs when they are applied.
- Cause specific abilities to share one cooldown for every copy of it, that is, if one person casts Incoming, all copies of it are disabled for a period of time.

Keithark · Oct 04, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Options:
- Make them significantly less extreme, i.e. not 50% block.
- Ensure that any major party-wide defensive buff is either practically removable, interruptable, or otherwise able to be interfered with.
- Cause party-wide defense buffs to remove other party-wide defense buffs when they are applied.
- Cause specific abilities to share one cooldown for every copy of it, that is, if one person casts Incoming, all copies of it are disabled for a period of time.

1) 50% block reduced to 30-35 is fine
2) they already did (hex, blind for the adrenaline based ones, and int for Defensive anthem due to long cast time)
3) they already did, armor is capped at like +24 or something like that
4) I have no problem with this but I also don't come up against teams with 2 paragons that often...what this would do to aegis may get some upset if you are talking about a nerf to all defensive skills/shouts.