Curse

Sinful Doom · Oct 02, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

Wild Blow already got nerfed once because of Grenth. If anything, just make it cost 4 adrenaline instead of any energy, and the effect still be the same. Then it's no longer on-demand for classes that have more than 2 energy regen, but still has the same detriment if used by warriors.

Yes, its so hard to get 4 adren on a dervish with aoe scythe... A lack of enegy cost in your case is better for the dervish. At least with my changes the energy cost will still keep warriors from spamming it and benifit its primary more. Note* this still might not fit so easily into a warriors bar with skills like conjure, shock, rending touch etc... being used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

There are many skills that work better on a secondary than a primary. Every bar contains at least 1 right now. Its not a bad thing really.

Care to indulge me and name a few?

pah01 · Oct 02, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Hi again

I made this thread to highlight some issues and since I dindnt see ensign create a thread.

Ensign is right that if one nerfs the passive defence to shit then physicals will cut your face off.

Whatever anyone says any build with four physicals [Especially one with 2 warriors and 2 paragons] is a significant damage threat and you need some passive stuff to cope with it. However I think that using movement should be at least PART of the way to deal with it. Using multiple layers of blocking effects to cancel out the pressure should not be part of the gameplan.

The other side of the coin is that if you are running the above mentioned physical pressure build you should lack quite a bit of defence and becuase of this your team has to win fast or take the risk of being "CONTROLLED"

It is for this reason that I wanted DA to be ran in motivation ----> to require an attribute investment and because of this lack one of the things that makes the paragon broken in PVP.

I wanted to nerf aggresive for the reason that having a free dps increase is just a bad idea.

Im actually going to post some nasty ass stuff in another thread about how i think some fundamentally gamebreaking things should be fixed on a deeper level than skills.

But their we go

Joe

karunpav · Oct 03, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

Once again you missed the whole argument. SKILLS THAT ARE BETTER USED BY ANOTHER CLASS OTHER THAN ITS PRIMARY.

[skill]Shock[/skill]
there you go. if you say it's better on an ele, then i rest my case.

Sinful Doom · Oct 03, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by karunpav

[skill]Shock[/skill]
there you go. if you say it's better on an ele, then i rest my case.

Well, that's about 4-5 skills I have agreed with out of how many in the game? I'm sure with a little research you could even find a few more but its not the massive amount described by some earlier posters. Nevertheless I think the ele could handle the exhaustion more easily than a warrior. Besides most ele's choose to use gale for a KD.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 03, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

Rofl..hey aren't important and necessary for the game. As I pointed out with OoB/HP/Mantra, skills used much more effectively on secondaries were absolutely essential to several metagames. In the case of HP, it even basically defined multiple eras of GW PvP; the period all the way from Prophecies to a little bit into Night

Ward Against melle why? MoR which people want nerfed. I guess elementalist never use wards.

I'll give you the conjure.

Already talked about watch yourself/shields up.

disciplined stance/return/dark escape/shield bash, All of these skills would be just as useful on their primaries but dont generally see use simply from lack of skill slot's.

Dont recall seeing many tiger stance assassins.

How can we have a hard res on a mesmer? I thought they all ran wards?

I'll give you the convert on ele's and already talked about mending touch on rangers.

FC makes wards on mesmers (almost) impossible to interrupt. Of course, people are trying to put wards everywhere since they're so powerful, but even on non-MoR mesmers it's simply impossible to shut them down.

The defensive skills are not as nearly useful on the primaries as on secondaries, and I thought that the point was to show skills that are more useful as secondaries. Warrior's simply don't have enough reason to bring defensive skills (though a couple split-oriented warriors brought disciplined stance during the YAA meta to cover heal sigs), and assassins have almost no reason to use return (though they did/do use dark escape quite a lot, I still think that it's more effective on monks).

And I'm not necessarily talking about current-meta examples, though I tried to keep it fairly recent. Tiger stance was the replacement BoA after it's nerf, considering that Tiger was almost the exact same. Flesh, res chant, and ressurect were also almost always on either mesmers or eles, though flesh had some use on the rare ritualists.

And I can't believe that I forgot shock... go me.

And then if you go farther back in GW, you get a lot more examples, of which some of the best examples include OoB, HP, and Mantra of recall, things that were the cornerstones of past metas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

Well, that's about 4-5 skills I have agreed with out of how many in the game? I'm sure witost ele's choose to use gale for a KD.

Juh a little research you could even find a few more but its not the massive amount described by some earlier posters. Neverthelss I think the ele could handle the exhaustion more easily than a warrior. Besides mst because it isn't a massive amount doesn't mean that tfall was built on the HP ele runner. I mean, can you think of two more influential and enduring templates than the shock axe and the HP runner?

EDIT: Just because I was curious, I went through the skills and counted ones that stood out to me as skills that have been more effective on secondaries during some point in GW play (I excluded some templates like the E/mo smiter and the Me/N FC curses just because I felt like it). I counted around 24, not including some of the debatable ones (distortion, blackout, gale) and not counting retarded ones (touchers). I also didn't go through dervishes or paragons, because I dislike them.

Kwisatz_Haderach · Oct 03, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

I personally like the idea of some skills being more effective for different classes than whichever class the skill happens to fall under.

This forces players to have to choose more carefully between their secondaries so they get the certain "cross-class" skill that most effectively helps their build. Also this locks the character into X/Y class causing them to have to "give up" a similar "cross-class" skill from a different secondary. Also it promotes diversity and ingenuity in builds as you try to create your build to have the most versatility at the same time be able to effectively accomplish the purpose of your build (dps, spiking, healing, interruption, etc. etc.).

The all time greatest example of this is when some genius said,"Hey! warriors use mostly use adrenaline and signets, so exhaustion hardly effects them. I wonder how well gale would do with them?"

The Flip side is you do have to worry about certain "cross-class" skills becoming simply uber on their cross classes. However, this is the problem with all skills in the game to some extent, so it is of no greater concern.

Sinful Doom · Oct 03, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

And then if you go farther back in GW, you get a lot more examples, of which some of the best examples include OoB, HP, and Mantra of recall, things that were the cornerstones of past metas.

OoB was a great source of energy for boon prots but was still extreemly effective for a blood/curse hex spammer. Why was Mantra of Recall used on monks? Simple, all of their elites at the time sucked and werent worth putting on a bar. Supprised you didnt add Energy Drain to the list. My whole point was to make Wild blow a skill that was more of a warrior skill than a dervish or assassin skill.

moriz · Oct 03, 2007, 01:06 AM // 01:06

don't forget heal party on the oldschool ether prodigy runners. heal party might as well be put in the energy storage attribute.

anyways, here's my list of nerfs (not complete btw. i'll have to do a bit more thinking first):

assassin:
shadow prison: 3/4 cast, half range
deadly paradox: 1....3 sec duration, 45 sec recharge
augury of death: inflicts cripple instead of deep wound

monk:
shield of regeneration: 1...5 health regen

mesmer:
mantra of recovery: 10...40% recharge reduction, affect only mesmer spells

TheOneMephisto · Oct 03, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

OoB was a great source of energy for boon prots but was still extreemly effective for a blood/curse hex spammer. Why was Mantra of Recall used on monks? Simple, all of their elites at the time sucked and werent worth putting on a bar. Supprised you didnt add Energy Drain to the list. My whole point was to make Wild blow a skill that was more of a warrior skill than a dervish or assassin skill.

Now you're changing your argument from "list skills that are more effective on secondaries." Sure OoB was on necro spammers, but compare the prevalence of necro spammers to how common OoB boonprots were.

And I wouldn't say that elite emanagement was on monk bars because their elites sucked, though it did contribute. I'd say that it was because the boonprot was the most versatile, most self-sufficient, strongest monk template possible in the meta, with it's only weakness being emanagement. Even with elite emanagement, boonprots would've fallen to any coordinated pressure extremely quickly if it wasn't for the often times multiple prodigy-powered HPs running around.

But either way, this conversation has taken up way too much of the thread IMO. We've pretty safely established that having skills be more useful on their secondaries is perfectly fine and acceptable. We've also established that wild blow is entirely useless on warriors.

Now basically, you're stating that wild blow shouldn't be useful for other mellee classes and should be more useful on warriors. Of course, there's almost no way that you're going to buff wild blow to the level that it'll warrant a spot on crowded warrior bars, so you're basically saying that you aren't okay with dervs using wild blow, while I think that if a dervish wants to give up his secondary for a guaranteed critical once in a while then that's fine with me.

kvndoom · Oct 03, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

My whole point was to make Wild blow a skill that was more of a warrior skill than a dervish or assassin skill.

Link it to strength... 75% chance to fail at 4 Strength or less. Of course that kills it for everybody because Warriors still won't use it in its current form.

Link it to Strength, add a minimal amount of +damage (0...10), and remove both the critical hit and the lose all adrenaline conditions. Then it's simply an attack that removes stances, and matches the other two "Wild" attacks.

moriz · Oct 03, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

and.... when's the last time anyone used vocal minority? even in pure hex builds, vocal minority is almost never used.

why would anyone want a skill that's effective against one profession only, and waste a valuable skill slot on it, is beyond me.

comparing it to shadow shroud is a poor choice, simply because shadow shroud is an active hex that can function without having to rely on 2349037593580 other hexes to make it stick. shadow shroud is only used as a prelude to a spike. it is not intended to be used as shutdown.

Apok Omen · Oct 03, 2007, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Defensive Anthem:
Nerfs won't do anything. They made the cast time 2 seconds yet Rangers still can't seem to interrupt it due to Aegis, SU!, Blurred, Blind, SoD, etc. Mesmers wouldn't waste an interrupt on this skill. You could make it 25e, but it would be the same thing as Agressive Refrain on Para's; they'll take out a staff and cast it in battle.

Glyph of Lesser Energy:
Again, won't do diddly squat by nerfs. Second profs will use it like they used Mesmer inspi line, and we don't want to see anymore undeserved e-management skill nerfs.

Mantra of Recovery:
This is actually making the Mesmer better to manage. While it is true that they can remove enchantments and interrupt more frequently, isn't that what we all against the meta-game?

Ward Against Melee:
While this is a nuisance to Warriors, you don't generally see that many guilds camping in Wards. This means all the Warrior has to do is hit the outside targets that they could build adrenaline off, then gain enough to spike while WaM is down and recharging. As for MoR abuse, I agree something has to be done about, perhaps a scale in Blocking???

In order to counter Shouts, you would need to roll at least a /Necro. Roaring Winds is laughable do to scaled energy cost and low armor. However, there are only three good counters in the Necro line: Ulcerous Lungs, Vocal Minority, and Cacophany. All of which are long term/long recharge hexes. And hexways generally prefer to use anti-melee hexes against Para's.

Ulcerous Lungs, having an affect that makes the target and others bleed once using one, has the potential to be functional changed to:

Spell: Remove a shout/chant from Target foe and adjacent foes. If a shout/chant is removed this way, all affected foes are bleeding for (xx) seconds.

That way, it is not a hex and can be used to remove shouts/chants and spread a condition as punishment.

The meta-game HAS to run all these block-skills because of the arrival of two hard-hitting professions: Paragons and Dervishes. I lead on with my statement to reduce the average damage output of both to handle these two without depending on Blocks.

twicky_kid · Oct 03, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Glyph of Lesser Energy:
Again, won't do diddly squat by nerfs. Second profs will use it like they used Mesmer inspi line, and we don't want to see anymore undeserved e-management skill nerfs.

The only difference is you needed to invest points into inspiration.

Shmanka · Oct 03, 2007, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Eh you could put MoR back up to 10 energy if you really wanted to change it, but I don't think it's even the best elite for a Dom guy.

Diverting from one of the arguments, lets debate this one.

40/40 Weapon Set > MoR?

Guillaume De Sonoma · Oct 03, 2007, 06:01 AM // 06:01

The ones that stand out to me are Shield's Up, Mantra of Recovery, and Aggressive Refrain.

Also, hi Zui.

DreamRunner · Oct 03, 2007, 07:31 AM // 07:31

I just want the follow to be nerfed;Angorodon's Gaze, Deadly Paradox, MoR and Augury of Death

But most of all I want paragon's to be changed.

Melody Cross · Oct 03, 2007, 11:52 AM // 11:52

I still don't think shouts need to be nerfed. Or paragons. they need reactive counters so players have more options to shut them down.

Strips. Every other party wide buff can be stripped if the other side needs it off. Shouts can't be. i don't care if they "weren't designed to be". the ability to load your team up with defensive buffs that can't be removed is what makes paragons imba. So add shout removal to some enchant strips (and remove one of each[enchant and shout] at the same time for some of the elites) to give players a way to peel off the defensive layers after they are applied.

The other way to get rid of the shouts is the one being so staunchly proposed: nerf the class and its used skills into oblivion. To that I reply: Whats next? Nerf the class you don't like today, watch the one you do like get creamed tomorrow. So...stop asking them to kill the game already. Think balance, not skill murder please.

GGs

RhanoctJocosa · Oct 03, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

I just want the follow to be nerfed;Angorodon's Gaze, Deadly Paradox, MoR and Augury of Death

But most of all I want paragon's to be changed.

Change Angorodon's Gaze to 5e when all conditions are met.
DP needs to be nerfed I agree.
MoR is fine.
Augury Of Death is also fine.

moriz · Oct 03, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

So, everyone wants Paragons to be nerfed, but everyone acknowledges they can be totally shut down and also in many different ways.

This makes me really laugh at PvP, I actually never understood what kind of game PvPrs want to play.
They know the counters, how to use them, and still request nerfs so they don't need to use counters.

My proposal: exclude all new classes from PvP, restrict it only to core classes so everyone can use their 2 years old skillbar, jump in the arena and whack each other with warriors and monks and gg.

At least this will give the possibility to those who like to play paragons and dervishes in PvE to enjoy them, without the fear that every month they will become more and more nerfed just to please the "pro" PvPers who are so brilliant and smart to refuse to take counters.

paragons should have never existed. if anet had bothered to properly playtest their product before release, paragons wouldn't have ever made it out of the alpha stages.

the entire concept of the profession is flawed to begin with. a passive party buffer, with warrior-like dps that can fire at range, in a game where it's all about dynamic, active gameplay simply does not fit. what's even worse, is that the paragon's primary attribute actually promotes this kind of degenerate gameplay: sit in the middle of the party and spam your shouts, and you'll get infinite energy. in fact, so much energy that they can afford to spam 15 energy spells on recharge.

having counters is a poor excuse, simply because the counters are far to specific and becomes useless if you don't meet a paragon. yes, you can take well of silence and vocal minority, but what happens if you don't meet a paragon? you've just wasted your precious skill slots on something that's not even there.

GW pvp is not a glorified game of rock-paper-scissors. stop for a moment and think before you stupidly open your mouth.

lastly, i would be all for completely destroying the paragon profession in every way possible, simply because it shouldn't be here in the first place.

romO · Oct 03, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Diverting from one of the arguments, lets debate this one.

40/40 Weapon Set > MoR?

Hex Eater Vortex