Curse

moko · Oct 15, 2007, 03:35 PM // 15:35

i prefer a simple return. it's really only good if you run it in a hex build, else a quick veil or deny and you're basically screwed.

also assassins and such own it.

used to own back when thumps were so loved though, also steady stance, although it's only good if you snare all 3 of them and such.

pooface_po · Oct 15, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

imo, keeping up guardian up at all times is enough to counter most teams (except for caster teams, of course). shutdown should be easy to manage if you're blocking the massive physical damage and disrupting attack chains

TheOneMephisto · Oct 15, 2007, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Hmm, I just recently started hero battles. I'm bad, I think. Something came to mind. I wouldn't mind Zui's view on this, maybe could work in RA/TA.

Grasping earth...

It needs low points in earth. Being ele as secondary you could run glyph of lesser (maybe not needed for RA/TA).

5 energy / slows up foe 50%. 12 recharge.

Nice, no?

I've seen it done, but I personally don't like it. I just dislike the fact that it doesn't help if you're KDed or something (like stances), and it isn't really something that you can use to get away in advance (like return). I mean, it's okay, but you have to actually stay still near to a warrior for over a second to use it.

Legendary Shiz · Oct 15, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Hmm, I just recently started hero battles. I'm bad, I think. Something came to mind. I wouldn't mind Zui's view on this, maybe could work in RA/TA.

Grasping earth...

It needs low points in earth. Being ele as secondary you could run glyph of lesser (maybe not needed for RA/TA).

5 energy / slows up foe 50%. 12 recharge.

Nice, no?

Seen it ran. If you're a good monk, you can really run a variety of things in TA and survive.

Maybe that doesn't quite stand true anymore since physicals are so much stronger than they used to be, but I've seen good monks run it on their bars. Seen Gale as well, you can get away with a lot of stuff if you know how/when to use it.

The Real Roy Keane · Oct 15, 2007, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Power drain better than FD.

I wouldn't recommend Power Drain; most players (like me) struggle to use it on Monk. I'm not saying it's a bad skill on a Monk - it isn't - it just wouldn't be advisable for an average-intermediate player to run it.

elektra_lucia · Oct 16, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

I wouldn't recommend Power Drain; most players (like me) struggle to use it on Monk. I'm not saying it's a bad skill on a Monk - it isn't - it just wouldn't be advisable for an average-intermediate player to run it.
Oh, and..

I know that. That's the point. FD is so bad, even PD is better than it...

guam pvp · Oct 16, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

FD isnt always a bad skill. The last time I used it, my team and I did 30 consecutive wins in TA.. and then I had to go. It's a good skill to use w/ prot spirit only.. And I would only use it if I, the monk, would be the center target of their offense.. because it's a selfish skill and since its used with prot spirit, it can be taxing on ur energy. Of course, there are always going to be counters with each build u bring, but that why you have the support of ur team to counter counters.. such as a cripshot ranger.. or pressuring their mesmer.. etc.

Master Ketsu · Oct 16, 2007, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Even [skill]Guardian[/skill] > [skill]Frenzied Defense[/skill].

Take your pick:

1 sec. 5 energy, 2 sec recharge, lasts 5~7 seconds depending on your prot, can be cast on teammate's. Counters simply bypass its defense.

insant cast. 15 energy ( im including cost of SB/PS ), 10 sec recharge, last 8 seconds, cannot be cast on teammates, your screwed if the cover enchant is gone. Counters bypass its defense and deal double damage.

The only thing FD has over guardian is that FD can be insta-cast. Not that it matters since a good monk should be pre-protting guardian anyways.

Costs more.
Easier to counter.
Cant be used for team defense.
Cant be kept up 24/7 if needed.
requires 2 skill slots to be remotely viable.

people need to lay it to rest: FD fails.

Heck, I pwn FD monks when Im playing as melee even when i dont even have any anti block or anti enchantment. Why ? Because I just take a few wacks at the FD monk. FD monk activates PS/FD, and I immediatly switch targets knowing the monk just wasted stupid amounts of energy on a stupid combo and spike his team.

The end result when I play against frenzied monks when I have no counter to it is almost always the same: One stupefied monk with 0e standing around 3 dead teammates. Change this to 3 stupefied teammates wondering how their monk just died in 2 seconds if I do have a counter.

guam pvp · Oct 16, 2007, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Guardian is a spell.. Fd isnt.

Guardian has it's issues because it's a spell.

such as.. Warmongers, Dazed, d shot, migraine, kd wars/sins, etc.

plus you have to recast it like every 5 seconds.. which hinders your ability to flee.

Like I said, FD works as long as the center of their pressure is on the monk. It's all based on the team build. Plus, a lot of monk do not know how to use an FD/prot spirit monk to their fullest potential which gives it a bad rep.

elektra_lucia · Oct 16, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Daze is going to effect a monk regardless of if he uses a stance. As is migraine. As is knock down.

Expose defenses isn't going to be nice with frenzied defense.

Sure you may prot spirit well, but it's still 15 energy.

They can shatter enchant prot spirit, they can wild blow. There is plenty of things to make FD a bad skill. Justifying it with 'I won XX amount of matches' does not prove -ANYTHING- at all. You may have played bad people. You may of been able to use something else instead of FD and still won.

the_deSKtructor · Oct 16, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

if u use fd to counter enemy pressure then u/ur team fails, and if u do that successfully then the other team fails.

Sun Fired Blank · Oct 16, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

plus you have to recast it like every 5 seconds.. which hinders your ability to flee.

14 prot + enchanting mod = 8 seconds of 50% block + df healing bonus + 2 second recharge = more awesome than you can apparently wrap your brain around.

Seraphim of Chaos · Oct 16, 2007, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

14 prot + enchanting mod = 8 seconds of 50% block + df healing bonus + 2 second recharge = more awesome than you can apparently wrap your brain around.

One second cast times are much different than stances.

guam pvp · Oct 16, 2007, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Ok, if you're going to be facing expose, then you have to pre-veil. Guardian monks have the same problem w/ Expose anyways so no argument there.

Migraine does not hurt a FD monk as much as a guardian monk. FD monks can still cast prot spirit + FD to protect themselves.. while guardian monks can only cast prot spirit.. and shielding hands if u bring it, but that takes up another skill slot.

Daze is easy for an FD monk to remove. I do it all the time. It goes like this: use FD.. then mend touch on yourself. Its that simple. Again, even if you dont remove daze u can still block + prot spirit.. u can prolly pull of a zb w/ FD on you.

If they have Shatter Enchant, then u have to cover ur prot spirit w/ another enchantment.

Wild blow is the quintessential counter for FD.. That\s why I like to bring a cripshot w/ an FD monk in TA.

Guardian is a good spell. Don't get me wrong. I use it all the time in RA only. If you're going to use guardian in TA, there are too many deadly counters for you to be the only healer. So, if you bring guardian w/ another healer then thats OK, but then u wouldnt be able to use zb as ur monk elite AND that means 1 less offensive/relief pressure spot.

Additionally, we do challenge a lot of skillful teams in TA while using an FD monk and still win.. such as glad 5+ teams.. AGAIN, it depends on your team build!!! I cant stress that enough.

Zui · Oct 16, 2007, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Wow. Just wow. When I have time on Thursday I'm really going to have to post in this thread...

Subjects of my upcoming post:

1) Grasping Earth
2) Frenzied Defense being really bad, and guam pvp not having any idea what he's talking about.
3) Frenzied Defense being really bad, and guam pvp not having any idea what he's talking about.
4) See 2 and 3.

I think that covers it.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 16, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by guam pvp

Ok, if you're going to be facing expose, then you have to pre-veil. Guardian monks have the same problem w/ Expose anyways so no argument there.

Migraine does not hurt a FD monk as much as a guardian monk. FD monks can still cast prot spirit + FD to protect themselves.. while guardian monks can only cast prot spirit.. and shielding hands if u bring it, but that takes up another skill slot.

Daze is easy for an FD monk to remove. I do it all the time. It goes like this: use FD.. then mend touch on yourself. Its that simple. Again, even if you dont remove daze u can still block + prot spirit.. u can prolly pull of a zb w/ FD on you.

If they have Shatter Enchant, then u have to cover ur prot spirit w/ another enchantment.

Wild blow is the quintessential counter for FD.. That\s why I like to bring a cripshot w/ an FD monk in TA.

Guardian is a good spell. Don't get me wrong. I use it all the time in RA only. If you're going to use guardian in TA, there are too many deadly counters for you to be the only healer. So, if you bring guardian w/ another healer then thats OK, but then u wouldnt be able to use zb as ur monk elite AND that means 1 less offensive/relief pressure spot.

Additionally, we do challenge a lot of skillful teams in TA while using an FD monk and still win.. such as glad 5+ teams.. AGAIN, it depends on your team build!!! I cant stress that enough.

I can't think of a single instance where FD is better than Disciplined stance. First, FD requires that you bring Prot spirit, which has been hammered over and over as a much worse alternative to spirit bond. And then, you have to jump through all of these hoops in order to not blow up while using FD (always having to prot spirit yourself, requiring cover enchants, etc.).

And you keep saying something about FD monk vs guardian monk. I really don't understand why you aren't taking guardian on all of your prot monks, as it's probably the best small prot available. I think that you're missing the point that any other monk is going to have the exact same bar as any FD monk, except with spirit bond instead of prot spirit (better) and disciplined/emanagement/dark escape/return/shield bash instead of FD (also better).

EDIT: Wait, WTF? Why can't you bring ZB if you use guardian? WTF are you smoking?
EDIT2: Okay, so I'm trying really hard to understand your second to last paragraph. After a lot of agonizing, it seems to me that you're saying that if you bring guardian it requires you to bring another healer because of "deadly counters," and the other healer is the reason you can't bring ZB. I'd agree that bringing ZB with 2 healers is retarded, but I fail to see how guardian forces you to bring another healer in the first part. What are these "deadly counters" that somehow counter guardian (but not other prots/block stances) enough that you need another healer?

Seraphim of Chaos · Oct 16, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

I can't think of a single instance where FD is better than Disciplined stance. First, FD requires that you bring Prot spirit, which has been hammered over and over as a much worse alternative to spirit bond. And then, you have to jump through all of these hoops in order to now blow up while using FD. always having to prot spirit yourself, requiring cover enchants, etc.

And you keep saying something about FD monk vs guardian monk. I really don't understand why you aren't taking guardian on all of your prot monks, as it's probably the best small prot available. I think that you're missing the point that any other monk is going to have the exact same bar as an FD monk, except with spirit bond instead of prot spirit (better) and disciplined/emanagement/dark escape/return/shield bash instead of FD (also better).

EDIT: Wait, WTF? Why can't you bring ZB if you use guardian? WTF are you smoking?

Probably weed, if I'm remembering the right person. =P

I'm not going to question guam or any of you. I've seen him play enough to know that he is a very competent monk.

elektra_lucia · Oct 17, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Ok, if you're going to be facing expose, then you have to pre-veil. Guardian monks have the same problem w/ Expose anyways so no argument there.

? The double damage passed you by ?

Quote:

Migraine does not hurt a FD monk as much as a guardian monk. FD monks can still cast prot spirit + FD to protect themselves.. while guardian monks can only cast prot spirit.. and shielding hands if u bring it, but that takes up another skill slot.

Would rather take SH over FD.

Quote:

Daze is easy for an FD monk to remove. I do it all the time. It goes like this: use FD.. then mend touch on yourself. Its that simple. Again, even if you dont remove daze u can still block + prot spirit.. u can prolly pull of a zb w/ FD on you.

Ele's.

Quote:

If they have Shatter Enchant, then u have to cover ur prot spirit w/ another enchantment.

So protection for FD... 10 energy. Another skill to cover enchant. 5 energy minimum. Then FD itself. 5 energy. Lots of skill slots to make up for a bad skill. Nice.

So you waste 20 energy on you alone, and then they change target. You can't use prot spirit because of recharge and your cover enchant is recharging too.

Maybe this passed you by also, but guardian can be put on team mates too? You're the one talking about team build, yet you go in like an elite droks farmer...

Quote:

So, if you bring guardian w/ another healer then thats OK, but then u wouldnt be able to use zb as ur monk elite AND that means 1 less offensive/relief pressure spot.

Fail? That's the only logical thing I can say to this paragraph because that's exactly what it is.

Quote:

One second cast times are much different than stances.

Pre-prot.

Quote:

Additionally, we do challenge a lot of skillful teams in TA while using an FD monk and still win.. such as glad 5+ teams.. AGAIN, it depends on your team build!!! I cant stress that enough.

Rank equals skill, how?

Quote:

I'm not going to question guam or any of you. I've seen him play enough to know that he is a very competent monk.

He fails, and you fail for thinking so.

Quote:

1) Grasping Earth

Go go Zui

.

Cammy · Oct 17, 2007, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Okay. I'm sure this has been said before. But currently, in arenas, you don't bring frenzied defense b/c of shattering assault sins. Normal, ungimped monks have enough trouble with shatter sins. FD doesn't have a chance.

GGs

Seraphim of Chaos · Oct 17, 2007, 02:29 AM // 02:29

I'd rather not quote all of elektra_lucia's post, so I'll just reply to those that are relevant to me.

Pre-protting is great. It is definitely a very useful "skill" for a monk to have. However, spikes are generally surprising and require good reflexes. After all, that's why they're called spikes... In between protting and pre-protting for one's allies and one's self, there is going to be a margin of error. The chances of having Guardian up 100% of the time on one's self is very slim and requires a good amount of constant energy channeling. That is why a stance is better than Guardian in most spike situations. One second casting time is definitely not fast enough for a spike unless if one is lucky and a HCT happens.

As for failing, I could care less about what you think, really. In my opinion, Guam is a very good monk; I know from experience. Fail is tossed around so much it has become about as generic as the old and worn term noob.