Curse

Aera · Oct 08, 2007, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Shatter Enchantment > Frenzied Defense
Defile Defenses > Shattering Assault
Shattering Assault > Frenzied Defense < my favourite
etc

I'd say you keep running FD while I hit you for 180 x 2 dmg with Shattering Assault and /rank your corpse

TheOneMephisto · Oct 08, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

This is correct despite the fact that prot spirit sucks.

As ibreaktoilets said, of course it sucks (well sucks isn't quite the word, suboptimal), it just happens to be the least suckiest way possible to utilize a bad skill.

swift88 · Oct 08, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Wait, not only do you use frenzied defense, one of the worst defensive options out there, but you also use it along with spirit bond instead of prot spirit? Are you retarded? I would love to be an air ele or something facing you, considering that you'll never have the energy to constantly keep up spirit bond on yourself and heal allies, so either you let your allies fall or I get a bunch of free 250+ damage lightning orbs.

And everyone else assumed that you were using the frenzied defense/prot spirit combo, because that's the only way to even try and utilize frenzied.

LOL you obviously think TA/RA is all about surviving... lol riight its 4v1 right?? on ta/ra LOL.. u forgot to count your offense.. learn math before making assumption. lol there's also time limit on ta/ra now.. wow.. what a novice. lol oh and wait. if you are an ele why would i use frenzied D? i would just sb my self lmao.... another sign of novice...

Zui · Oct 08, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Frenzied Defense is bad--no, frenzied defense is downright terrible. There are countless posts in the TA section explaining exactly why. Someone should probably use the search function and find them.

Oh, and if you're using Spirit Bond in concert with Frenzied Defense, you should get your head examined. First, Frenzied Defense is bad no matter what you do. Second, Spirit Bond combined with Frenzied Defense is double your fail. Third, re-read reason #1 and reason #2 until you get it.

If you were to use Frenzied Defense, which you really shouldn't ever do--the only place I could see it being 'good' is if you're dicking around in Alliance Battles, Fort Aspenwood, or RA (maybe sealed deck too, but I dbout it very much)--you would use Protective Spirit. The reason you would do this is because without some kind of damage reduction from say, spells, you're going to get owned. Now, you have two options for this, Spirit Bond, and Protective Spirit. I guess you could use Spellbreaker, or the non-elite version of Spellbreaker (don't remember what it's called, although I know it's really bad and in Divine Favor), but that'd be really dumb. So, you're left with Protective Spirit, and Spirit Bond. You can't use Spirit Bond and not cause your entire team to die because of it, so you're stuck with Protective Spirit. It's the inferior of the two skills, but when paired with a terrible skill like Frenzied Defense, it's actually better.

So, basically you're bringing a bad skill, and a sub-par skill to make that skill less bad. Or, in your case you're bringing a bad skill and an otherwise good
skill that in your case is way worse than just bringing the sub-par skill.

Seriously though... Rethink Frenzied Defense... Or be the Monk version of the iconic scrub, the whammo. As you know, the true whammo is a rare breed, he loves mending, terrible elites, tanking damage, and having 8 in swordsmanship so he can heal better. That guy is bad, and you're him. Except, you're him on a Mo/W, and you maybe have 6 other good skills, and some clue as to how to play your class.

swift88 · Oct 08, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Frenzied Defense is bad--no, frenzied defense is downright terrible. There are countless posts in the TA section explaining exactly why. Someone should probably use the search function and find them.

Oh, and if you're using Spirit Bond in concert with Frenzied Defense, you should get your head examined. First, Frenzied Defense is bad no matter what you do. Second, Spirit Bond combined with Frenzied Defense is double your fail. Third, re-read reason #1 and reason #2 until you get it.

If you were to use Frenzied Defense, which you really shouldn't ever do--the only place I could see it being 'good' is if you're dicking around in Alliance Battles, Fort Aspenwood, or RA (maybe sealed deck too, but I dbout it very much)--you would use Protective Spirit. The reason you would do this is because without some kind of damage reduction from say, spells, you're going to get owned. Now, you have two options for this, Spirit Bond, and Protective Spirit. I guess you could use Spellbreaker, or the non-elite version of Spellbreaker (don't remember what it's called, although I know it's really bad and in Divine Favor), but that'd be really dumb. So, you're left with Protective Spirit, and Spirit Bond. You can't use Spirit Bond and not cause your entire team to die because of it, so you're stuck with Protective Spirit. It's the inferior of the two skills, but when paired with a terrible skill like Frenzied Defense, it's actually better.

So, basically you're bringing a bad skill, and a sub-par skill to make that skill less bad. Or, in your case you're bringing a bad skill and an otherwise good
skill that in your case is way worse than just bringing the sub-par skill.

Seriously though... Rethink Frenzied Defense... Or be the Monk version of the iconic scrub, the whammo. As you know, the true whammo is a rare breed, he loves mending, terrible elites, tanking damage, and having 8 in swordsmanship so he can heal better. That guy is bad, and you're him. Except, you're him on a Mo/W, and you maybe have 6 other good skills, and some clue as to how to play your class.

lol riiiiight.. comparing a wammo to frenzied d monk lol.... you sure do have bad taste on comparisons lol..

Zui · Oct 08, 2007, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Wow, as I was writing my post, someone else was writing the gem directly above it! Now I must respond...

Quote:

Originally Posted by swift88

LOL you obviously think TA/RA is all about surviving... lol riight its 4v1 right?? on ta/ra LOL.. u forgot to count your offense.. learn math before making assumption. lol there's also time limit on ta/ra now.. wow.. what a novice. lol oh and wait. if you are an ele why would i use frenzied D? i would just sb my self lmao.... another sign of novice...

First, Panda is good at the game. He does not think TA is all about surviving. He is not a scrub, and understands you win by killing things. He also understands that if you want to kill things, your entire team can't die because your monks bar sucks.

It seems as if you think running Frenzied Defense is good by this post, and is actually contributing to your team. I got this conclusion from your second-fourth sentencish things (I dare not call them sentences). But, Frenzied Defense is bad. Bad enough that when you run it, you're hurting your team.

Why did you mention there is a time-limit on RA/TA? Panda didn't even talk about that. Nor did he make even the vaguest mention to something that could somehow relate to matches now being timed. (Ok, so maybe you're trying to say you can keep up your energy while keeping Frenzied Defense and Spirit Bond up on yourself most of the time? Good luck with that.)

If Panda were playing an Elementalist, someone else would be playing say, a Warrior, or a Dervish, or maybe even a Thumper. You know, the classes that kill things by smashing their faces in. I'm not going to outline exactly how this would cause you to get omgwtfpwnt with proper play, because it's really obvious, and if you can't figure it out yourself you are hopeless.

Oh, and you really can't call people novices, at least not yet. People who are novices do not have the right to call other players novices in an e-argument. Especially when the other person isn't a novice, and you're totally wrong.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 08, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by swift88

LOL you obviously think TA/RA is all about surviving... lol riight its 4v1 right?? on ta/ra LOL.. u forgot to count your offense.. learn math before making assumption. lol there's also time limit on ta/ra now.. wow.. what a novice. lol oh and wait. if you are an ele why would i use frenzied D? i would just sb my self lmao.... another sign of novice...

I played TA in one of the most serious and well-known TA guilds of the time. However, a sub-par defensive skill guess what, happens to be worse than other options. And I would really suggest that you not suggest that I learn math, considering that I'm in differential equations and multivariable calculus as a junior in high school.

I think that you're forgetting to count the opponent's offense. If you're running SB with frenzied D, how the hell do you deal with enchantment strips? What do you do considering that a good lorb + shatter enchant can almost solo spike you? How do you deal with SA and DA sins? How do you deal with the fact that every time you want to use frenzied defense you have to use 15 energy to put up both FD and SB because any good team is going to punish you hard with spellcasters if you don't? And consider that even if you have both SB and FD up, a lorb is still going to be doing 150+ damage. What do you do if (gasp) the opposing team coordinates their melee and spellcasters to both attack you at the same time?!?

And finally, is it really worth all of those massive disadvantages when you can just dump a couple attribute points, bring disciplined stance/return/dark escape/etc, and learn how to kite?

BTW, please learn at least something close to correct grammar and capitalization. You may think that using ellipses and "lol"s every sentence (and sentence isn't quite the word for it) makes you seem cool, but it really just makes you look like a retard.

EDIT: Zui beat me (thanks btw). I do like how we both mentioned his sentences (or lack of them).

Zui · Oct 08, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Actually, my comparison is accurate. Whammos pick shitty skills because they're bad enough at the game that they actually think those skills are good. Monks who run Frenzied Defense, especially ones who run it with Spirit Bond, pick shitty skills because they're bad enough at the game to think those skills are good. See a pattern?

lacasner · Oct 09, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

I cannot lable frenzied defense as horrible, particularly in RA. With good prot instinct from sb and such, (although i generally avoid 10 energy monk spells in TA, RA who cares) it can be very effective.

Gotta love those sins and wars c-space mindlessly.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 09, 2007, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

I cannot lable frenzied defense as horrible, particularly in RA. With good prot instinct from sb and such, (although i generally avoid 10 energy monk spells in TA, RA who cares) it can be very effective.

Gotta love those sins and wars c-space mindlessly.

Shouldn't you build to beat the best teams, not the worse (or average)? And please don't tell me you use SB with FD also. This is just such a horrible practice, even worse than PS + FD (and that's pretty bad). I mean, look at the numbers. Not only does spirit bond only last 10ish seconds with an enchanting weapon, but even with SB on, if you get hit with a lightning orb while in Frenzied your still going to be taking 120*2-96=150ish damage (assuming 14 air, 14 prot). Why would you take such a bad combo when taking SB + disciplined or SB + return is way way better? Hell, I'd probably rather run with 7 slots than risk the minimal chance of accidentally hitting the key for frenzied defense in TA against any decent team, that's how bad it is.

Memento Mori · Oct 09, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

I love how every thread turns into how bad frenzied defense is. No, I really do.

Every skill can be not labeled as horrible when used in RA. Assuming that people will suck does not make any justification of using sucky skills. Blowing 15 energy to get yourself destroyed seems very illogical when you take a step back. There is no defending frenzied defense, its a disgustingly bad skill that cannot be justified in any sense.

I don't really have anything else to say that TheOneMephisto or Zui covered but I had to bring up the fact that Swift said "learn math before making assumption" I don't get it, I could put things in a math-like format and it makes sense

Frenzied Defense+Lightning Orb=Boom.

Edit: I apparently cut off my post while copy pasting my essay >.>
The rest of the post focused on the increase of shattering assault sins and dervishes who generally pack wild blow. Other things included swift's hypocrite nature in saying Panda is such a "novice" due to his lack of acknowledgment of a time limit in the arenas, as well as use of spirit bond? those assumptions were made off the fact that he didn't know about a time limit, which can't be seen anywhere as that topic was never raised. And correct use of spirit bond again comes from nowhere since I assume you never played against him. Then again he might completely suck since I can't say I played vs him unless it was a year ago and he was in [serp]? I mix names up sooo much.

Also don't think you're call cause you can find different ways of saying noob, neophyte.

lacasner · Oct 09, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Shouldn't you build to beat the best teams, not the worse (or average)? And please don't tell me you use SB with FD also. This is just such a horrible practice, even worse than PS + FD (and that's pretty bad). I mean, look at the numbers. Not only does spirit bond only last 10ish seconds with an enchanting weapon, but even with SB on, if you get hit with a lightning orb while in Frenzied your still going to be taking 120*2-96=150ish damage (assuming 14 air, 14 prot). Why would you take such a bad combo when taking SB + disciplined or SB + return is way way better? Hell, I'd probably rather run with 7 slots than risk the minimal chance of accidentally hitting the key for frenzied defense in TA against any decent team, that's how bad it is.

It seems a ghost has appeared and added words to my post which I did not type myself.

Ghosts of Guru?!?!, what is this madness?

TheOneMephisto · Oct 09, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memento Mori

Then again he might completely suck since I can't say I played vs him unless it was a year ago and he was in [serp]? I mix names up sooo much.

I was in serp for a bit, but by the time I had gotten there I had already begun to quit (only a couple PuGvGs once in a while) and serp had already begun to die to inactivity anyway.

And Lacasner, I apologize if I put words in your mouth. It's just that you mentioned FD not being bad in RA and that it could be okay with good use of SB, and I just assumed that you used it or at least didn't think that it was horrible.

Cammy · Oct 09, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Whoever thinks frenzied defense is good, please learn from me. I used to be one of the biggest supporters of frenzied defense + prot spirit b/c for awhile many of the modern TA guilds were running it. However, thanks to Zui (and many others, Zui simply being the most helpful) I've since dropped frenzied defense and picked up spirit bond and disciplined stance/return. Could not have made a better decision. Frenzied defense is bad not only because of the double damage but also because any smart player will switch targets upon activation, forcing you to waste 15 energy. Learn to kite, learn to predict melee spikes and return/activate disciplined, learn to preprot. People who think frenzied defense is good and have more success with it than other monk bars are simply bad at monk.

elektra_lucia · Oct 09, 2007, 02:24 AM // 02:24

For RA you can run anything but for a coordinated team FD is clearly bad.

Uh most of this is just verbal diarrhoea. Calling each other novices. Wammo can get glad points with healing hands, if he's in RA with a decent team. You can get glad points with FD, but it's still bad.

off topic*

I think I remember a Hyori from ren0 a while back, I say from, I mean in*. Or it's a different Hyori? xD.

urania · Oct 09, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40

I think the guild that has ran frenzied defense and ONLY frenzied defense monk builds for over half a year now is definately HoD with their tripple fear me w/n's...someone save their souls! =PPPP
I gave up.

Legendary Shiz · Oct 09, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cammy

Whoever thinks frenzied defense is good, please learn from me. I used to be one of the biggest supporters of frenzied defense + prot spirit b/c for awhile many of the modern TA guilds were running it. However, thanks to Zui (and many others, Zui simply being the most helpful) I've since dropped frenzied defense and picked up spirit bond and disciplined stance/return. Could not have made a better decision. Frenzied defense is bad not only because of the double damage but also because any smart player will switch targets upon activation, forcing you to waste 15 energy. Learn to kite, learn to predict melee spikes and return/activate disciplined, learn to preprot. People who think frenzied defense is good and have more success with it than other monk bars are simply bad at monk.

When I'm on a melee I absolutely love playing against frenzy D monks, simply because I always try to pack on a wild blow somewhere in my bar. A lot for griefers, but also a lot for frenzy D monks/stance monks. If they pack on spirit bond, it's still a waste of 15 energy. If they don't it's a double damage crit hit.

All around, its a baed skill.

_SiO_ · Oct 10, 2007, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

I think the guild that has ran frenzied defense and ONLY frenzied defense monk builds for over half a year now is definately HoD with their tripple fear me w/n's...someone save their souls! =PPPP
I gave up.

and thats the only build they can run. i never saw them using something else.
do someone know what they are running now? maybe this DA sins? hehe

FD: like some mentoined before, its only useable with ps, but even then it sucks.

Chase the Sky · Oct 10, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

I am the President in Chief of the Panda & Zui Fanclub. They are pretty much always right.

Age · Oct 11, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

sorry but it's bad. accept it.

I like it and won't accept it it is just similar to bonetti's defence but not adrenal and dosn't give you energy in return.