Curse

Akaraxle · Oct 08, 2007, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Paragons have perma Frenzy w/o drawbacks, 'nuff said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaeharys targaryen

Guild: We Fail At GWs[GWW]

Oh ok.

Greedy Gus · Oct 08, 2007, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

ever heard of dodging/obstruction?

Uh, what? You said that any anti-melee can shut down paragons, which is plainly false, so I corrected you with anti-physical. Why would dodging/obstruction have anything to do with that statement?

The point is, there are a lot of interesting flagstand defense options that used to work but are no longer very viable due to the possibility of heavy paragon damage: water snares, cripshots, ward melee & foes, etc. And no, snaring a paragon and then trying to find an obstruction to hide behind doesn't make it viable (have you ever gvged?). Paragons as midliners pushing a lot of ranged damage on you is one of the big reasons why passive party defense is so valuable post-NF.

linh · Oct 08, 2007, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Paragon are projectile attack, so any anti-melee defenses aren't enough anymore ( snare, ward,..). That's why ppl depend so much more on anti-attack defenses like Blind, Aegis, SoD .. since NF and bring anti-projectile like Shield Up.

African War Lord · Oct 08, 2007, 11:31 AM // 11:31

8vs8 paragon's are maybe too strong, 4vs4 they are too weak. Finding a balance between the two would be nice.

moko · Oct 08, 2007, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Uh, what? You said that any anti-melee can shut down paragons, which is plainly false, so I corrected you with anti-physical. Why would dodging/obstruction have anything to do with that statement?

dodging for me is like kiting. anti melee imo. or do you stand around and let the war bash on you also? point is you try to get as few hits in as possible, which works for both.

and yeah sure these don't work on paragons, but they do on warriors, and you seriously think 2 paragons are going to spike/pressure you down?

and i'm not speaking paragay here, which would of course screw all of these snares and wards.

Quote:

8vs8 paragon's are maybe too strong, 4vs4 they are too weak. Finding a balance between the two would be nice.

they're also fairly good at 4vs4. if it wouldn't be for the map design that allows good positioning, they'd be pretty awesome.

African War Lord · Oct 08, 2007, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

they're also fairly good at 4vs4. if it wouldn't be for the map design that allows good positioning, they'd be pretty awesome.

not sure man.. when I monk in arena's, I don't recall ever saying "help get this paragon off me!!" lol. maybe you wanna post a build that makes a decent protection monk worry.

moko · Oct 08, 2007, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by African War Lord

not sure man.. when I monk in arena's, I don't recall ever saying "help get this paragon off me!!" lol. maybe you wanna post a build that makes a decent protection monk worry.

EDA/Cruel Spear pressure in damage heavy teams/dual para expel+IJAFW/paragay (-_- some builds just cant cut through it)/Stunning strike (against noobs that fail at predicting the dazed).

crucifix · Oct 08, 2007, 01:30 PM // 13:30

We should be complaining about lack of player skill over how imba paras are. Its just as easy as this; if you suck at the game, you are going to lose. that little extra IAS on paras isnt whats killing you, its the rest of your team + you failing at playing well.

RhanoctJocosa · Oct 08, 2007, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Giving a Paragon -10 AL is like giving elementalists 5 less energy.

Exactly.

-25 imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crucifix

We should be complaining about lack of player skill over how imba paras are. Its just as easy as this; if you suck at the game, you are going to lose. that little extra IAS on paras isnt whats killing you, its the rest of your team + you failing at playing well.

You're wrong.

bungusmaximus · Oct 08, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by crucifix

We should be complaining about lack of player skill over how imba paras are. Its just as easy as this; if you suck at the game, you are going to lose. that little extra IAS on paras isnt whats killing you, its the rest of your team + you failing at playing well.

So you think it is normal that a para gets unconditional IAS and warrior DPS at RANGE? that's silly. When a warrior hits frenzy he/she has to worry about taking double damage, while the para can happily fire away? People here that suggest balance options/scream about skills being overpowered are usually players that can hold their own pretty well, or do you just mean everyone in this thread fails at GW? (please say yes, I had a lousy day and I wanna have some fun for a change ^^)

Many players I've seen in, say, HA playing para-spike teams were pretty bad players themselves, it just didn't matter because it was so hard to cut through their unnatural AL that they didn't have to kite or watch themselves in any other way. Hell I raked in quite a lot of fame in a team like that and when I started playing I sucked ass, yet I still won. If I can win in HA when I own GW for 6 months somethings wrong :P.

Blame the Monks · Oct 08, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Giving a Paragon -10 AL is like giving elementalists 5 less energy.

qft

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Vaga · Oct 08, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

You can't kite paragons :S strafing is all well and good except you can't strafe the whole match because you need to cast spells some time and even if strafing was actually viable a paragon could actually call for a snare if need be. By strafing the whole time the paragon is doing its job by pressuring and not allowing you to cast.

2 Paragons can easily pressure another team if you don't have passive defense. They do almost as much damage as a warrior and you can't effectively pre prot against their damage, as soon as you prot one target they just switch to another and it's impossible to keep up.

Even if aggressive refrain worked like frenzy it's pretty much the easiest thing ever to hit the cancel action button when you think you're going to be spiked.

Every successful tournament player seems to think paragons are overpowered but according to crucifix and mokone it's just that they're scrub. You ought to team up and try recruit 6 other people as skilled as you so that you can win all the tournaments until GW dies.

moko · Oct 08, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Every successful tournament player seems to think paragons are overpowered but according to crucifix and mokone it's just that they're scrub. You ought to team up and try recruit 6 other people as skilled as you so that you can win all the tournaments until GW dies.

stop being a moron really. if you looked at page one i clearly said AR does need a huge nerf -- you think that would be my opinion if i thought paragons were shit? i'm saying there are ways against the insane damage they can do, and to say the truth, i havn't seen many "top gvg" players even TRY to dodge.

besides, GW already died if you argue by skill, can't say there's that many good players left now can you?

Greedy Gus · Oct 08, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

stop being a moron really. if you looked at page one i clearly said AR does need a huge nerf -- you think that would be my opinion if i thought paragons were shit? i'm saying there are ways against the insane damage they can do, and to say the truth, i havn't seen many "top gvg" players even TRY to dodge.

I think the main issue is that your opinion flopped around from different sides throughout this topic, primarily when I corrected your terminology and then you brought up something irrelevant to what was just said. I think it's an important distinction, if we're going to understand the balance issues better, to have people stop using wrong terminology (not just you, I think the biggest offender of this type was kestrel preaching that paragon was frontline, just because he was mixed up about what terms meant).

The only one who looks like a moron here is you, because you for some reason continue to feel the need to post, even though you've had no interesting insight to add, and actually dumb down the conversation by posting petty trash (izzy doesn't undertand mechanics!), spreading misinformation (anti-melee shuts down paragons!), and getting illogically defensive (uhh, I dodge all spears!).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

besides, GW already died if you argue by skill, can't say there's that many good players left now can you?

This is such a trite response, an excuse for just being another dumbass whose response to things is "l2play" or "counter it". You're not in a position to even judge top players' skill.

moko · Oct 08, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

for me it's not really irrelevant seeing how i put kiting and dodging 1-1, it's bascially the same, sure it's differnet game mechanics but in the end you evade attacks and negate damage.

oh and yes, izzy clearly is a good game balancer, we all know by now, just i can't accept it eh?

and yes, anti melee DOES shut down paragons, maybe not every single form of it, when there's like a few skills that are more or less crap, but it does. what's your point? paragons are not invulnerable to any skill?

and oh yes, i clearly said i'm dodging every single spear in existance! there's a difference between doing it all day and being able to.

at least from "good players" i'd expect parts of it, shame it's so rare to see, because top tier doesn't even know how to prekite.

guess i'm a funny person for going around screaming "LEARN TO ADAPT AND COUNTER IT!" while calling for nerds. mm yeah makes sense, it really does. i'm not saying this in any way, i just find it funny how people seem to simply refuse to dodge when they can

now if i said paragons were already shit, easy to handle in every single way and such, i'd understand your point, but i didn't.

and wow, you really are trying to say that top players skill is as good as it used to be before? most good players have quit by now, sure there's good players left (DF as prime example imo) but overall i'd say quality has dropped by a lot.

Kyp Jade · Oct 08, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Compare warrior to paragon

Warrior:

Melee Range
Uses adrenaline and energy skills
Very efficient, always active unless shut down
blind
hexes
ward
aegis
DA

If no counters are taken, kiting mitigates some of the damage

Paragon (with AR):

Short range
uses adrenaline and expensive energy skills
shouts power expensive energy skills so paragon is as active as the warrior
Very efficient, always active unless shut down
blind
hexes
Aegis
DA
Shields up

If no counters are taken, strafing can mitigate some of the damage.

Conclusion, just as many cockblocks exist for paragons w/AR as do warriors who dont even need frenzy to outpressure paragon because of the larger and better attack skill set.
these RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO blocks are common and in almost every build. stop QQing

LifesRestorer · Oct 08, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

problem is kyp, paras dont even really need their elite for their damage. they have all the damage of a warrior in perma frenzy, they do their damage at a range, they have pretty much perma energy from GFTE and all of this with room for defensive support skills such as DA and Expel Hexes.

i read somewhere, and i dont know who said it but yeah i agree: Paras should have had 70AL, Dervs should have had 80.

Greedy Gus · Oct 08, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Conclusion, just as many cockblocks exist for paragons w/AR as do warriors

The whole point is, you have less options now. The more different types of credible offensive threats that exist, the more types of defense you need to bring. Or more realistically, you have to bring the type of defense that can deal with both; we're pigeon-holed into taking mostly anti-physical defense, rather than taking more interesting anti-melee options (or anti-ranged I guess, though there aren't many interesting ones).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

these RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO blocks are common and in almost every build. stop QQing

I think you misunderstand. People aren't complaining that paragons + warriors are unstoppable. They're explaining the reason why paragons + warriors force defense to move into this boring direction (huge passive defense webs in addition to strong active defense) in order to avoid being wiped in a matter of minutes. People are, in fact, explaining exactly why these 'blockway' skills are "in almost every build" now.

And sorry mokone, I know you're intelligent & understand things. It's just frustrating to see you always take on the "jaded vet" role that we already have way too much of these days.

Riotgear · Oct 08, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Warrior:

Melee Range
Uses adrenaline and energy skills
Very efficient, always active unless shut down

The "melee range" aspect opens up a lot of counters by itself.

Warriors are also far more opportunistic because all of the things you listed can cause their staple abilities to fail, which not only forces them to wait out the effect AND recoup the costs, but has a significant tactical cost as well because attack chains are fairly opportunity-based.

Shouts and chants don't miss or get blocked, so Paragons are only disrupted for however long the blind/hex lasts for adrenaline shouts, and not at all for energy-based ones. Shouts are not particularly time-sensitive, just about any time they're available is an acceptable time to use them.

Kyp Jade · Oct 08, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Sorry, but to clarify my post, paragons need AR to bring any real pressure to the field. base attack is less than a hammer and at the same speed. Without AR, the paragon is reduced to a crappy hammer warrior that doesnt KD.

Shouts and Chants are a different matter, and I fully agree that DA is imba, and should be nerfed to hell or back. (or just made to work only on attack skills so it blocks half of spikes) Im fully of the opinion that unstrippable prots are gay. AR itself is unstrippable which is also kinda gay, but its not prot, and it doesnt stop you from killing anyone.

Shouts/Chants should never ever have offered prot.