Curse

Vaga · Oct 09, 2007, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Sorry, but to clarify my post, paragons need AR to bring any real pressure to the field. base attack is less than a hammer and at the same speed. Without AR, the paragon is reduced to a crappy hammer warrior that doesnt KD.

Maybe you should think about some of the advantages paragons have over warriors, like how they avoid melee hate so teams are forced to bring stuff like aegis that effects all 'physical' damage types. They also avoid pre prot which is great as well as being switch targets faster than a warrior can. This is why Passive defense and hexes are the only way to deal with paragons effectively.

In addition to all this there's a class called ranger where the standard bar actually promotes player skill that have become far less effective because for them only hitting 25% of the time is a huge problem since a lot of the value of having interrupts is lost when they can't be relied upon.

On top of all this paragons take basically no micro to play but are just as if not more effective than classes that take much more micro.

Quote:

Shouts and Chants are a different matter, and I fully agree that DA is imba, and should be nerfed to hell or back. (or just made to work only on attack skills so it blocks half of spikes) Im fully of the opinion that unstrippable prots are gay. AR itself is unstrippable which is also kinda gay, but its not prot, and it doesnt stop you from killing anyone.

Do you realize why people run all these shouts? A large reason is so paragons don't blow your team up in 2 minutes. Even without shouts paragons are still good since you can run mirror of disenchant + other utility on them.

Kyp Jade · Oct 09, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Do you realize why people run all these shouts? A large reason is so paragons don't blow your team up in 2 minutes. Even without shouts paragons are still good since you can run mirror of disenchant + other utility on them.

Blind
Faintheardedness
Blurred Vision

These 3 options are fairly common and at least ONE of them is always present in almost any given meta build. (I said at least one, usually there are more)

However most meta builds also run 2 melee along with a single paragon. My earlier post was comparing warriors toparagon. They are similiar in that they are both pressure / dps classes. Which is true. Should you be blinding the paragon? Sure if you have nothing else to do. But while a war can be preprotted against and a paragon cant. A paragon will never kill anything by itself, and will be spiking the warriors target.

And if your worried about pressure, spears are easy enough to see flying through the air that you can just throw a rof on thier target to heal up the last 10s or so of thier dmg, or just a soft prot they wont see like shielding hands.

~All of the above is posted with the gvg paragon template in mind, these paragons are meh, dont offer enough pressure to cry about, only have spike and passive defense (dont cry about AR, the paragon can only offer low dps of 33dmg/s IF NOTHING IS BLOCKED). However paragons are entirely capable of killing things on thier own if specced for pressure only, case in point the dual paragon offense I'm fitting into an HA build. But a pressure specced paragon will never be viable in gvg since 7/8 of attacks are blocked nonstop~

~Quick edit:
Mirror of broken skill was a poorly designed skill from the beginning.

Bankai · Oct 09, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

On a side-note, the paragon actually attacks faster than a hammer.

twicky_kid · Oct 09, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

On a side-note, the paragon actually attacks faster than a hammer.

Its between sword and hammer. It was reduced during beta when it was = to sword/axe.

Not sure the exact timing but what ever it is its close to sword/axe with AR.

Greedy Gus · Oct 09, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Not a mystery, base attack rates: 1.33s for sword/axe, 1.5s for spear, 1.75 for hammer. Spear under AR (1.125s) is slightly faster than hammer under frenzy/flail (1.167).

crucifix · Oct 10, 2007, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Now lets think about the myriad of complaints coming from this thread. Everyone is bitching about the same thing: AR is too steady of an ias/ unstrippable/ too easy to maintain. Have none of you heard of hexes and conditions before? Im sure those two things at one time made the meta, or did hex pressure never exist? (sarcasm, and i explain it because as a whole, most of you won't understand it). I think in its root, the issue is that everyone is too lazy to play anti para toons. Dont complain about an imbalanced meta if you arent willing to play its counter.

Riotgear · Oct 10, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by crucifix

Now lets think about the myriad of complaints coming from this thread. Everyone is bitching about the same thing: AR is too steady of an ias/ unstrippable/ too easy to maintain. Have none of you heard of hexes and conditions before? Im sure those two things at one time made the meta, or did hex pressure never exist? (sarcasm, and i explain it because as a whole, most of you won't understand it). I think in its root, the issue is that everyone is too lazy to play anti para toons. Dont complain about an imbalanced meta if you arent willing to play its counter.

Hex overload got nerfed, individual hexes are easy to remove. Neither stop energy-based shouts, and are only useful for however long it takes to remove them against adrenaline-based ones. They're designed to cause opportunistic warrior chains to fail, and are costed as such, making them generally a waste against non-opportunistic Paragons as a shout shutdown mechanism, and ineffective at stopping them during opportunistic attacks because they provide no indication that they're about to unload on a target. Throwing Blurred+Blind at their Paragons means their warriors get to kill your midline, and is like telling your rangers to stop interrupting midliners so they can try to d-shot Eviscerate.

I really need to copy/paste this response, I'm getting sick of retyping it.

crucifix · Oct 10, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Hex overload got nerfed, individual hexes are easy to remove. Neither stop energy-based shouts, and are only useful for however long it takes to remove them against adrenaline-based ones. They're designed to cause opportunistic warrior chains to fail, and are costed as such, making them generally a waste against non-opportunistic Paragons as a shout shutdown mechanism, and ineffective at stopping them during opportunistic attacks because they provide no indication that they're about to unload on a target. Throwing Blurred+Blind at their Paragons means their warriors get to kill your midline, and is like telling your rangers to stop interrupting midliners so they can try to d-shot Eviscerate.

I really need to copy/paste this response, I'm getting sick of retyping it.

roaring winds + oath shot...

Kyp Jade · Oct 10, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

The only energy based shouts you care about, are DA, and shields up. DA you interupt, shields up is imba anyway.

You can blind the paragon if you want to, but other than that you really have nothign to complain about, the paragon is not destroying your midline with mediocre 33dps. Does not have oppurtunistic skills such as bulls strike.
Compare the paragon to a blind bot ele. Spike assist and Midline support. No one is complaining about how imba blind eles are. What happened was teams removed a blind ele for a paragon. They gained more defense, but lost the utility of the ele.

Bankai · Oct 10, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

The only energy based shouts you care about, are DA, and shields up. DA you interupt, shields up is imba anyway.

You can blind the paragon if you want to, but other than that you really have nothign to complain about, the paragon is not destroying your midline with mediocre 33dps. Does not have oppurtunistic skills such as bulls strike.
Compare the paragon to a blind bot ele. Spike assist and Midline support

It's wearying down your midline, not destroying it, and it makes it much harder to kill the enemy backline. If you throw blind on a Paragon, you get raped with a spike while blind is on recharge. Yes, you can interrupt DA, but then Shield's up comes into play.

Greedy Gus · Oct 10, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by crucifix

hexes and conditions

roaring winds + oath shot...

I think in its root, the issue is that everyone is too lazy to play anti para toons. Dont complain about an imbalanced meta if you arent willing to play its counter.

It's abundantly clear that have no idea what you're talking about.

People aren't asking for paragon nerfs because they can't defend against them or counter them. The good players have already found and refined the ways to deal with heavy paragon damage, and they're way better than your useless armchair scrub opinions.

The issue is that the method of dealing with heavy paragon damage & extra utility is one of the main reasons the metagame has moved to what it is, and it happens to be highly defensive and quite boring (out of necessity, so you don't lose in 4 mins).

If you (general, anyone reading this) think that when players ask for nerfs that they should just understand the issue better and 'counter it', then you have an elementary school level of understanding game balance. The top players play to win, and they'll be countering what is overpowered whether they ask for nerfs or not (this is so fundamental, it's hard to not understand; the top players are always the ones who are playing to win, by necessity. If something is overpowered and they ignore it, then they're no longer at the top). The place to look to determine whether nerfs/tweaks are a good idea or not is at the metagame: is the resulting metagame less fun/skillful/interesting to play in?

Thomas.knbk · Oct 10, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by crucifix

roaring winds + oath shot...

seriously, just shut up.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 10, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

People need to stop posting counters and saying that something is balanced, especially really ridiculous counters. If there was a skill with 2 sec cast time that did 1000 damage to your target, of course it would be unbalanced, yet, it would have plenty of counters.

Riotgear · Oct 10, 2007, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Okay, so let me start making this bar.... I need Guiding Hands or Seeking Arrows so my oath shot doesn't bounce off DA, Shields Up, and Aegis...

[skill]Oath Shot[/skill][skill]Guiding Hands[/skill][skill]Roaring Winds[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
.....

Wait, this blows.

kvndoom · Oct 10, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Wait, we can build on that. Add in Serpent's Quickness for moar Oath Shot. Make it stronger. Faster. We have the technology.

Lorekeeper · Oct 11, 2007, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by crucifix

roaring winds + oath shot...

wow i really hope that was a joke.

mattjenkins · Oct 11, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

easy fix

aggressive refrain
For 5...21 seconds, you attack 25% faster but take double damage. This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on you.

Turbobusa · Oct 11, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

That would make it total junk. You cant even cancel it as needed.

Thomas.knbk · Oct 11, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattjenkins

easy fix

aggressive refrain
For 5...21 seconds, you attack 25% faster but take double damage. This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on you.

OH I'M BEING SPIKED, LET ME CANCEL MY ECHO

oh wait

Riotgear · Oct 11, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

OH I'M BEING SPIKED, LET ME CANCEL MY ECHO

oh wait

This is why echos as a mechanic are full of fail.

But I like that suggestion regardless.