Curse

moriz · Sep 22, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

to begin this guide, i'd like to quote a post in another thread. i feel what this poster said is quite relevant to this guide:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

...Thirdly, players of other higher PvP formats aren't, by grace of their experience, spectacular AB players. The short answer is that AB has another dimension that isn't a factor for HA or TA. For any format, you have to ask for yourself and your opponents; what can or can't I do alone, what can I do if another person helps me (and the situations that might I require help), and what can (or is) my team do(ing) as a greater whole? Many HA and TA players are spectacular at #1 and #2. #3? Er...

HA and TA players are profoundly capable of resolving single altercations in a quick and timely fashion. They quickly and properly respond in a lethal fashion to a very large number of situations. The problem is that for either format, #3 is very seldom a concern. Those formats lock players in a sphere of misery that rapidly and violently shrinks and expands. You don't ask what your team is doing; they're a huge adjacent glob of death and pain, and they're probably screaming to you about it over vent. You don't ask what their team is doing; they're in your face doing the same thing. And you very seldom have any reason or space to do anything else.

GvG players often do #3 in a very explicit and spectacular fashion. The map gives you a chance to do many things that you simply can't do in HA or TA. In the very simplest form of doing #3, they might execute a split or hold the flagstand. In a more complex form, they might save a tenuous situation through many clever manoeuvres; and many of those are in response to the other guild.

In stark contrast, AB requires that you are superbly aware of #3 on a map that has a truly breathtaking amount of geometry and seven points of interest, doesn't always give you a quick means of joining your group if you die and lacks a useful means of interacting with other groups. The great AB players consequently develop #3 as intuition. The problem is that #3 as intuition is not useful for Heroes or Gladiators or Champions or Vanquishers or Guardians. It's only useful for AB.

My experience is that great players only begin to develop that sense around 1,000,000 faction earned through AB. If you donated every point of that faction to your alliance (post-update, grumble), you'd be a defender of your faction (r7) and 25% of the way to r8. The problem is that AB isn't very competitive. You can develop #3 as intuition and outright fail to develop #1 or #2.

...
The second is that saying AB is PvE / isn't PvP is wrong. That's a statement many folks make that properly reflects a lack of decent competition and the means to encourage it, yet denies the complexity that is present and should be more of a factor (if the format had more competition...). They're comparable to anyone that screams "4-4-4" and "cap, cap, cap!" It means they sort of get it, but not really. That's a bit akin to screaming "kill the monk!" in arenas.

The third is that our the debate over if a specific faction is more prone to mobs does not help the original debate: is it viable? And that question, to me, indicates that AB is very broken (and to be honest, has always been broken). You shouldn't ask "does mobbing work?" We know they work. You should ask "why do mobs start?" and "why do mobs work?" You should also seriously ask "why is it so derided by most PvP enthusiasts?"

to put this simply, AB is a pvp arena that not just stresses the importance scoring kills and identifying+shutting down the most dangerous target to your team, but it also stresses the importance of doing the same to the benefit of everyone on your side. this guide will focus specifically on this issue. to start, i'll focus on the different aspects of the mob, and then go on to explain other AB related topics.

to mob or not to mob....
the mobbing tactic can and should be an effective tactic in AB. however, notice the emphasis on "can" and "should". for mobbing to be an effective tactic, you should know when and how it is most effective, and avoid mobbing when the situation is not favourable.

there are three forms of The Mob (tm): A) a mob that runs in one direction, B) a mob as the result of two teams converging, and C) a mob that blocks the exits to the opposing base. out of the three, B and C are the most dangerous, with A being dangerous only to stupid people. to understand why B and C are the most effective, it's necessary for us to take a look why they form in the first place.

B forms as the result of two allied parties running in opposite directions, and happens to converge together and quickly seperate again. if they happen to converge when there's no enemies nearby, then the mob disappears as quickly as it is formed. if they happen to converge together on an enemy shrine, or an enemy group, the full effectiveness of this form of mob is quickly realized. outnumbered, the enemy group have only two options: run, or die. most of the time the enemy group is quickly eliminated in a brutal pincer movement (thus cutting off all escape). once the enemy group is eliminated, the two teams continues to run in opposite directions and the mob disappears. the advantage of this kind of mob is twofold: it does not diminish capping speed, and it creates quick and favourable skirmishes for your side. this form of the mob also mirrors the GvG tactic "collapsing", which is the art of creating a momentary favourable outnumbering situation for your team and zerg-rushing the hell out of those isolated targets before their monks get into position to heal them.

C occurs after your side caps every single shrine on the map and then proceeds to park everyone around every exit out of the enemy base. while there is no capping ability in this mob whatsoever, it is no longer relevant because none of your enemies are going to get out of their base. with everyone blocking every exit, and with a shrine or two behind your back, it is virtually impossible for you to lose in this situation. the only thing to watch out for are the stray enemy cappers that are still out there, so it is usually a good idea to have a couple players break away from the mob to rat them out.

out of the three forms of the mob, A is the weakest and the most often seen. it is generally consisting of 7 or more players running in the same direction, often members of 3 teams. this is the form of the mob that most people complain about, since it slows down capping speed. also, since it's impossible for a pincer movement to occur, anyone with half a brain can simply avoid it and cap around it. this form is also the least organized. this allows a skillfully-played disruption character, such as a cripshot, to easily break it up by snaring/picking off the weakest targets in the back of the mob, thus weakening/slowing it down with minimal sacrifices in capping speed on the cripshot's side.

AB team aspects
the standard AB character roles can be divided into four categories: A) damage dealers (encompassing standard hitters, spikers, AoE, degen), B) support (encompassing prot/heal monks, rits, paragons), C) disruption (encompassing shutdown mesmers, shutdown necros, cripshot/BA rangers), and D) everything else (encompassing tanks, minion masters, 55 monks, leechers). generally, those with a brain run A B and C, with the retards running D. obviously, for a successful AB team, you'll need have A B and C presented in some form or another. that way, you'll have an answer to most of the threats against your team, and have a way of eliminating that threat. you also need enough damage on your team to eliminate shrine npcs in order to effectively cap it.

one of the most hotly debated aspect of the AB team is whether it is more effective to split the team, or stay together to cap. the answer unfortunately is not so cut and dry. the simple answer to this question is: if it benefits your side, then do it. if splitting your team means you can gather more points, then do it. if staying together to cap single shrines is more effective at the moment, then stay together. the most effective way to go about this is actually to split off a single character to accomplish something while rest of the team go on to cap. the loss of a single capper generally do not affect the capping speed much, and the split character (if played skillfully) can have a big impact elsewhere on the map.

one of the best solo characters in AB is the cripshot. if left alone, they can quickly render entire teams useless using the snare and hit-and-run tactic. in 1vs2, or even 1vs3 situations, their general toughness and shutdown ability can give them the victory. they are also the ideal character to leave behind to cap an unoccupied shrine while rest of the team move forward to cap another, as well as a great solo defender of a shrine against multiple attackers.

NOTE: this guide is currently unfinished and poorly organized. i'll be revisiting this soon, so check back regularly.

Riotgear · Sep 23, 2007, 02:28 AM // 02:28

The problem is that knowing what your team as a whole is doing isn't really going to save you. If they're capturing shrines so slow that even a three-way split isn't outcapping the other team's 10-man zerg rush, then nothing you do is going to fix that. If they're standing in the way of that zerg rush and getting farmed, you can't do anything about it. If they're fighting outnumbered on a rez shrine like a bunch of lemmings, you can't do anything about it.

And to answer the question:

Quote:

You should also seriously ask "why is it so derided by most PvP enthusiasts?"

It's derided by good players because it only works against idiots, which is coincidentally why it almost always does work in AB. Four players that can clear a shrine quickly will increase the shrine count just as quickly as ten that smother a point.

It's derided by bad players because it makes it easier to win and requires no skill, which is always a laugh because the only reason it makes it easier to win is because of the opposition's lack of skill.

Most of the tactics involved in playing AB involve dealing directly with the stupidity of other players. The easiest one is running from your enemies, because they would rather send 7 people after a monk to score that juicy kill and call you a fag for running than complete the map's actual objectives. AB players hate giving up a kill, which is why Shadow Form grief builds work phenomenally well, wammos brag about how many people it takes to kill them, and I had to leave a game once because one of my teammates was running Glyph of Renewal+Iron Mist and tying up half of my team by keeping it up permanently on a helpless Assassin.

If you can actually trust your teammates to run something decent, something as simple as a monk and three physicals will work fine. Hell, run four SP Assassins. It'll punch through shrines, it'll punch through the other players, and if someone attacks your monk, you train them.

Shutdown builds tend to do a phenomenal job of what I could describe as "removing distractions" and keeping your team moving (i.e. Corrupt Enchantment + Stoneflesh Aura = lol), but tend to be awful at actually capturing shrines, which means if your teammates suck and you get fragmented off, you can't do anything about a shrine even if it's undefended. Pure-damage builds can do that, but tend to have terrible survivability and are prone to ganking.

BA with Pin Down is probably the most well-rounded splinter-player template, but is still sluggish at shrine clearing.

bungusmaximus · Sep 24, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Shutdown builds tend to do a phenomenal job of what I could describe as "removing distractions" and keeping your team moving (i.e. Corrupt Enchantment + Stoneflesh Aura = lol), but tend to be awful at actually capturing shrines, which means if your teammates suck and you get fragmented off, you can't do anything about a shrine even if it's undefended. Pure-damage builds can do that, but tend to have terrible survivability and are prone to ganking.

Heh lol, that's why we always run 1 necro, 1 sin/warr, 1 nuker and a monk. The melee and the nuker kills stuff while the necro keeps melee and eles at bay, works like a charm.

zling · Oct 14, 2007, 08:25 AM // 08:25

I dislike Monks in AB
first of all sometimes it is more useful to split your team, and when someone on your team dies you usually start to mix up with other teams. if you're a good organized team that sticks together whatever happens than kudos to you, but that isnt likely and not always beneficial.
also a no brainer team works wonders on AB
4 eles or 4 sins just whipe out shrines and mobs like there's no tommorow
maybe save 1 slot for a GOOD MM that can hold shrines and mobs all by himself, Sad But True people...

Cebe · Oct 15, 2007, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

there are three forms of The Mob (tm): A) a mob that runs in one direction, B) a mob as the result of two teams converging, and C) a mob that blocks the exits to the opposing base. out of the three, B and C are the most dangerous, with A being dangerous only to stupid people. to understand why B and C are the most effective, it's necessary for us to take a look why they form in the first place.

C is without a doubt the most lethal form of mobbing, and the only type which works very very well in Grenz and Etnaran.

B tends to be dangerous if the mob forms outside your base. Thinking back to Grenz and Etnaran, teams from each side head up the left and right hand sides of the map, while the 3rd goes up the centre. If the groups with head up the sides beat their corresponding enemy groups they end up joining up outside the enemy base, if they then stay there, and the enemy is stupid, the enemy just runs into a pile of players from the opposing team who descimate them in seconds, whilst the centre group clear up round the map.

It's probably worth noting that each map tends to require differing tactics, and tend to go better or worse depending on how efficiently the three groups can coordinate themselves. Ancestral Lands / Kaanai Canyon requires the attacking teams to sort out which shrines they are going for. This can often be done by someone saying "Clockwise or Counterclockwise?", and explaining clearly to people who don't understand what it means. That way each team can organise which shrine to head towards, as if both "bridge groups" head towards the central "section" a mob will form, which can take a long time to split up.

The attacking team also, in my opinion, should NOT attack the fort. When the fort gets attacked people spend too much time in it, allowing the defending team to run around the outside and cap. I'm not adverse to blowing up gates to generally annoy and cause a distraction though, especially if the attacking team is doing well...it can sometimes take the defender's focus off capping and back onto defending their fort and fixing their gates. If the Defending team does get out and starts sucessfully capping, this is more often than not a mob which seems to run in one direction and caps at high speed...if the attackers are stupid they will attack the mob...if they're not they will wander behing the mob and re-cap the shrines.

Grenz, Etnaran and, to a large extent, Saltspray Beach can be won quite easily if the teams of 4 down each side can defeat their opposing teams, and end up meeting at the shrine outside the enemy base. Saltspray of course doesn't really have a shrine outside the bases, so what I've noticed is that one team sucessfully takes the centre, while their corresponding opposing team sees they've capped it already and thinks "screw that" so goes for a Res Shrine, shortly after which the Central group rampages down to the res shrine with Mrs. Dragon to kill their opposing team. They are then free to patrol up and down the three central shrines. The Kurzicks seem particularly adept at this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

I dislike Monks in AB

I actually like playing Monk in AB. In my opinion, if you have a team with a good monk you're much more likely to be able to kill the first few groups effectively. I generally try to pre-cast Protective Spirit on all party members before we engage the opposing team and keep an eye on who is where and who is being attacked by what. I also like it when I notice someone on an allied team being in trouble and "fix it" for them...sometimes you get thanked which makes it all the more worth it.

iridescentfyre · Oct 15, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

C) a mob that blocks the exits to the opposing base. out of the three, B and C are the most dangerous, with A being dangerous only to stupid people.

Its ridiculous how effective this is. In my opinion it shouldn't be, there's three separate exits from a base for a reason. Players will totally ignore the portals and just run out of the front exit to be slaughtered en masse.

After finally getting sufficiently frustrated by this I told the entire team to stop being retards and use the portals, avoiding the mob and capping. What did I hear in reply?

"But if they take our base they win!!111!"

...

moriz · Oct 15, 2007, 07:33 PM // 19:33

actually, the correct way to mob the base is to cover all possible exits. usually, there's a shrine conveniently placed directly outside of those exists, so any team should be able to stem the tide long enough for reinforcements to get there if the losing team try to zerg rush that particular exit.

but yes, there's just something about having a gigantic mob of people standing in front of a gate that draws people to it. i'm not too sure why, but it works :S

iridescentfyre · Oct 15, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

actually, the correct way to mob the base is to cover all possible exits.

It seems to me that the massive group of cornered enemy players would eventually overwhelm the meager force of four covering the front. Even if that team of four were very good players and played their best against hordes of unorganized W/Mo's and AoB Dervishes, attrition would get them fairly rapidly.

moriz · Oct 15, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

that massive group will only form if your side killed all of them at the same time, and they all rezzed at the same time. normally, the defenders will be coming out in small waves, which is hardly enough to break 4 players with shrine support.

even if that massive mob forms, it shouldn't take much time for reinforcements to come in. those four players only needs to stall for time

Sun Fired Blank · Oct 15, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

If you're Kurzick on Etnaran or Luxon on Grenz, and the other side has every shrine, you are completely boned, because the Stream Attack Point enables a significantly buffed twelve-person mob to intercept any distribution of outbound teams, and to outmuscle a rival mob.

Horseman Of War · Oct 16, 2007, 01:25 AM // 01:25

XoO is always a tough opponent in AB, hats off to you guys
great guide, spoken like a true kurzick tho :P

AB is great because you really see a lot of interesting builds (with the exception of the lame 55s or earth tanks etc lol) and like they already said, it puts a different spin on many of the skills and styles of pvp

Honestly I agree with both zling and iridescantfire to a certain extent - I do not generally like having a healer on the team unless it is myself (usually rit not monk when i am).

mrmango · Oct 16, 2007, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Minion Masters work in AB if they start with a team and find corpses.

Amadei · Oct 16, 2007, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horseman Of War

AB is great because you really see a lot of interesting builds

Oh, God, interesting is one word for it. In a recent match I played, my guildies and I saw so many "interesting" builds on the enemy's side (Burning Arrow sin, minion-raising warrior) that we purposefully didn't cap the last shrine back just so we could fight them longer.

>_>

We're bad people. But it was hilarious.

Lorinda · Oct 17, 2007, 07:00 AM // 07:00

mmhmm dont forget monks with meteor or meteorshower.
Or rangers with flare..

ontopic.

It seems that OP wants people to mob more offen. Besides the fact that i dont like mobbing at all, does it only seem semi handy when 2 teams mob the Bridge (canyon or Lands) when all the other shrines are in controle. The 3th team goes out and checks those shrines. Holding the door normally doesnt work, some people do use the portals. Some not all.

Splitting up a team works okish, if you grand solo artist knows what to do. Other wise you better of sticking together and holding a shrine with NPC's on it.

moriz · Oct 17, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

i would suggest you read it again, since what i said in my guide just went right over your head (as usual).

iridescentfyre · Oct 17, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorinda

It seems that OP wants people to mob more offen.

That's absolutely incorrect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorinda

Besides the fact that i dont like mobbing at all, does it only seem semi handy when 2 teams mob the Bridge (canyon or Lands) when all the other shrines are in controle.

If you have all other shrines under control there's only 1 shrine for 12 people to attack. I would argue that a mob in this circumstance (and in example C in Moriz's guide) is almost totally unavoidable. You can't expect the other eight players to sit there motionless while four get the last shrine. Whether or not its handy or not doesn't really come into play since you've already likely won by this point, and its just a symptom of your team doing well.

longhornrob · Oct 17, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amadei

Oh, God, interesting is one word for it. In a recent match I played, my guildies and I saw so many "interesting" builds on the enemy's side (Burning Arrow sin, minion-raising warrior) that we purposefully didn't cap the last shrine back just so we could fight them longer.

>_>

We're bad people. But it was hilarious.

I approached a warrior and a sin. I started fighting the warrior, but I got toasted. By what you ask? Meteor Shower. From the sin. I mean, I guess it worked well enough to kill me, and it caught me totally by surprise, but come on! Meteor Shower Sin? Ridiculous.

wuzzman · Oct 17, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

AB is cap shrines...which means kill npcs, which means running around in circles, which mean.....you rarely pvping....

moriz · Oct 17, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

if you are dumb, the above will work, simply because at least you'll be somewhat useful.

for those with a brain, there's a lot more to AB than just running from shrine to shrine.

bungusmaximus · Oct 18, 2007, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

AB is cap shrines...which means kill npcs, which means running around in circles, which mean.....you rarely pvping....

What if the other teams cap faster? then the real fun starts ^^.